Bronco

But to do it on the $1800 that I paid for my sons trip, is manipulative, abusive. and deceptive. I believe that this Day of Service thing was just another way to take the participants out of circulation for a day. National knew that it could not handle the volume or throughput on most of the big advertised activities, so they just came up with a mechanism to remove a significant number of participant from the mix.

 

To me the whole concept of this Day of Service at the Jambo is questionable. Scouts, all Scouts know what service is about. The Den, the Pact, the Troop, or even the Crew sends out a message that our activity for the day will be 'some service project'. You choose to go along or you choose to stay home. That's your choice. But either way, you haven't been asked to shell out thousands of dollars for the privilege of participating in the that service project without ever having the chance to decline. And the justification for declining would simply be, "my parents sent me here to participate in the Jamboree, not to build picnic tables".

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled that the kids were able to help save the schools equipment and material. To me this is an issue of principle.

My wife said the same thing about doing it on the money we paid to send him there. I explained that our other scout did a service project at summer camp and that our Troop performs service projects every year at camp. The more I thought about it - the more I'm inclined to agree with both of you...

My guy is home now - I just have to wait 2 hours to leave work and go home to see him and hear the stories. I went in 1985 as a scout and I'm glad he got this opportunity warts and all.

I've been trading texts with my oldest as he heads home. Throughout the week he seems to have had a great time. Didn't get to do everything he wanted but said every day was better than the last. Some days the food 'sucked'. Some days there wasn't near enough food for him. Talking to other parents from our Troop their boys have had a mixed bag. One boy in particular was complaining about adults line hoping for events to the point that despite waiting 4 hours on the last day he still couldn't get on the zip lines - major disappointment for him. I'm sure that sort of stuff happens.

Not to highjack your thread but what's bothered me is our council and their behavior and attitudes throughout the entire process. If I didn't have another boy 3 years younger already saying he wants to go to the next I'd never have anything to do with them again. As it is I've shut down all my involvement on the district and council level. I'll put my time and energy into the local unit from now on.

I had to add them by hand. I used this website:

http://www.usscouts.org/databases/camp/ocd.cgi

Opened each camps page in a tab and used google maps to add them in one by one by searching for the address on the USscouts page or the name of the camp.

I can set the map up for collaboration so if you'd like I can add you and you can do the other states you are interested in...eventually we could have a large portion of them added.

I know it's been a few months since this thread was active but I spent an afternoon throwing as many PA camps as I could find on Google Maps:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=201373616750161821252.0004bd42058c00aed5c5e&msa=0

Far from complete, still a bit of a mess and I'm sure some places are missing. Still, kind of interesting to see how things lay out state wide.

I've been to most of the camps on the eastern end of the state.

I've been debating joining this group:

http://www.idos.org/

From their website:

The International Dutch Oven Society (IDOS) is a non-profit organization with the goals to preserve and promote the skills and art of Dutch Oven cooking. From it's humble beginnings in the Rocky Mountains, IDOS has grown to its current status as the largest and most productive group of black pot enthusiasts in the world.

Our motto is Good Food, Good Friends, and Good Fun

There is a chapter in my neck of the woods that is trying to get off the ground...I may look into joining it for more recipes and info.

I would not use oven cleaner or any other chemical on my cast iron. I used straight steel wool (with no additives) and elbow grease to get the rust and gunk off the oven I cleaned this weekend.

I've always been taught that the cast iron will grab whatever you are cleaning with and you will eat it when cooking in it going forward. I don't know if that is true or not but I'd rather not find out the hard way.

I just rehabbed a rusted dutch oven that was left in our scout shed.

I did a little research and found this site:

http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-technique-for-seasoning-cast-iron/

The one thing I picked up from her that I hadn't done in the past was wiping off all excess oil before baking. I did that this time two times over a 6 hour period and I was amazed at how nice the cooking surface turned out.

Now we keep all of our cast iron owned by the unit inside our CO - not outside in a shed where the elements can get at them.

I see both sides of this. I only have one uniform and I do have 7 knots on it. Depending on what crowd I'm with (unit or district) it can feel a bit silly at times to have them on.

The best explanation I ever heard in the pro camp for them is that they show others that you are a resource for those positions.

Some clarifications to my original post:

"#5 - don't assign them to a job a youth should be doing like QM....

Agree in general. But if you have a QM with ADD or OCD, and an adult with some skills in logistics. The pairing might help transfer some skills the boy may need to manage his job and overcome other difficulties in life."

They would be advising only - not doing the job. The Troop has recently been reorganized and there is a good deal of training that has been happening. Care for gear is one area that needs work.

"#2 - if the CC (in charge of securing leadership) transferred them from the Pack as new ASM's then heavily stress training for that position if they wish to continue as an ASM."

I am the CC - that is why I'm asking this question. Our council requires ASM to be fully trained by the end of 2012 so they must do IOLS etc in order to stay on the roster.

"In other words, you want ASMs in positions that complement -- not replace the boys."

Exactly our thought process and why I was asking what sorts of positions new ASMs are placed.

"We really don't want to involve them with the new scout patrol to avoid Webelos III - we've had that happen in the past (not by choice but by lack of volunteers). "

I've heard of SM's who stole money from their troops in the past...so does that mean that the SM of the troop my son is fixing to join will steal money too? "

When I say past I mean as in the past year. Yes it is possible that it won't ever happen again but why not be proactive about it going forward? Sorry if I offended you - perhaps I wasn't clear in what I meant.

The natural tendency seems to be that people that were in DL positions can have an issue with letting go once they get into a ASM position. We are trying to be proactive and help them find a good place in the Troop where they can contribute and stay active.

Another poster mentions how many parents just gather at a table in the back and shoot the breeze. I'm just trying to make sure that new ASM feel welcomed and needed - so they don't say to themselves - I'm not needed here - I won't bother coming anymore. That's all.

"Maybe the 1st step would be not to assume that they will automatically become Web III leaders and encourage them to take ASM training.

(refer to "prestige" thread) "

One more time - we aren't assuming anything, but it is simply easier if the new ASM aren't working directly with their boys. Yes, they've all been encouraged to get fully trained. My apologies if it came out some other way.

I'm currently the CC for the Troop but I'm also the Webelos I Den Leader. I've done the DL job 3 times now and have one more coming in a year or two. Ive also held the CM and Pack CC position. I ran a troop as SPL as a youth and it was a real boy run organization. I've had my own experiences coming up into the Troop with my now 13yo son. The day we all met for summer camp to load the trailer I learned my lesson. As soon as the trailer doors were opened I jumped up and started carrying gear into the trailer and organizing it - calling out for boys to grab other stuff. It lasted all of about 30 seconds before a seasoned ASM pulled me aside and nicely told me that 'wasn't my job here'. I instantly knew what he meant and felt foolish for it given my background. It can be very hard to let go. If you do it right off the bat - then my hat is off to you. I'm much better now and I dont hold it against anyone that has an issue with it.

Thanks to everyone for your input - I always appreciate the wisdom of these forums.

Our current new scout patrol has 3 adult leaders that have crossed over into our troop. One of them, the Den Leader has an older son already in the troop - he gets the program and has bought in.

The other two leaders do not have experience with scouting as boys. What sorts of things do you guys 'assign' to new adult leaders to keep them involved and not drop from adult leadership?

We really don't want to involve them with the new scout patrol to avoid Webelos III - we've had that happen in the past (not by choice but by lack of volunteers). Now we don't NEED that to happen but we can't really throw these guys at the older scouts can we?

We are thinking getting them involved with QM duties or something like that.

Any advice is appreciated.

In my own experience I've seen the pecking order on the unit level. I joined a pack as 'a dad' and found myself Cubmaster about a month later. As I began to meet the adult leaders in the troop it became painfully clear that they had little to no interest in the pack that fed them with boys for the troop. I warned them that I was going to run a program that would double the size of the pack in 2 years and they better be ready for a LOT of scouts.

They didn't catch on, ended up leaving when the troop exploded growth wise and now I'm a Webelos Den Leader and Troop Committee chair. The pack has changed CM 3 times since I stepped down and continues to grow. It also has a great connection with the Troop and our Webelos start visiting Troop events the moment they become that year.

People that don't get the connection between the incredible importance of a strong pack to feed your troop amaze me.

Thanks Kudu - this makes sense since this unit is over 75 years old and many of these members are in their mid to late 70s.

I've spent more than a few afternoons reading your site. I appreciate it greatly as a resource.

Thanks for the responses.

To give some further clarity:

>> Is this an annual event? Monthly?

Annual event in March. I do believe that initially it was meant as a 'Welcome to the Troop" night as there is a small section (5 minutes) devoted to recognizing the scouts that have just crossed over to the Troop from the Pack.

>> The title "Charter Night" suggests that this is something that the CO wants. Have you spoken with the COR about what its goals are for the night?

I haven't had a formal conversation with him about it but he does attend out committee meetings. We have one tonight so I'll chat with him about it.

>> Does it replace a regular troop meeting?

No.

>> What incentive is there for the boys to attend? If it's such a boring night, what brings them out?

I think they come because they are 'supposed' to do so. I've watched attendance drop over the years. Some of them probably come for the food.

>>If it's just a once-a-year event, *and* it's something the CO wants to happen - a reflection on the past, looking forward to the future, etc. - perhaps it's not worth fighting over.

Honestly, I don't think there would be a fight. My main reason for asking about this was to get an idea of what if anything other units do with their charter nights.

Turns out this seems to be a creation of this unit. Upon further reflection, I don't want to completely change it - just get some ideas of how to tweak it and perhaps rebalance it to speak to the current generation of scouts.

Thanks again to all for their input.

We just wrapped this up on Saturday.

Our unit is recovering from a breakdown in the PLC. The new PLC is grabbing the throttle and re-directing the Troop.

We advertised a TLT where people should attend to see what the PLC does and to plan the following year. During the TLT training we handed each scout a sheet of paper and asked for 3 things they wanted to see the Troop do - no dream too big. Be vague or specific - whatever.

During the training we copied their ideas onto large sheets of paper. If something received multiple votes we put a number next to it.

Prior to the meeting I printed out a series of 24"X30" monthly calendars. You can get them here for free if interested: http://www.somacon.com/p352.php They were then posted around the room during the planning session. We provided the scouts with a list of activities both inside and outside of the troop that are 'must do's'. Major holidays as well as CO events like scout sunday, camporees, etc. After the PLC agreed to put those on the board we then revealed the 'wish list' items. We discussed each and marked them as 'can do this year', 'could do in a future year with planning', 'long term dream/goal'. It was stressed that even the dreams could be achieved with proper planning.

We then went from item to item and placed them on the calendar. We used the Journey to Excellence to see what we might be missing.

This took the unit from virtually no tent camping in the past 14 months (other than summer camp) to 10 scheduled trips, hiking, canoeing, etc.

Using the Journey to Excellence also helped us to get service on the calendar as well - not as an afterthought.

We also 'themed' the months to match the Troop Meetings to the events of the next month.

Now, with proper mentoring we will see how the scouts do with implementing this program.

I could see the excitement in the boys eyes for the first time in a while as they left the cabin.

I've recently jumped into the CC chair for our Troop. My son has been in the Troop for three years now and I served on the committee during that time. As I've posted in other threads, this unit had a committee that had a serious disconnect from the unit.

One of the traditions in this unit is Charter Night. I've attended three of them now and what they boil down to is a 3+ hour evening where (to put it bluntly) the primary focus is not on the boys or the current program. It usually revolves around older committee members telling camp stories from the 40s and 50s while the current youth membership plays with their cell phones or stare off into space. About 30 minutes MAX is spent on the current program with 10 minutes of that being a slide show of summer camp.

I don't remember having Charter Night as a scout - is this something that is common? If so, what kind of things do you all see on this night?

During the yearly planning session I mentioned to the PLC that as the CC I had zero desire to run a Charter Night like we've been having. I asked them to draw up some plans for one by the boys for the boys.

I'd appreciate any advice you all may have. I'm kind of hoping that they will come back with something vastly different than what is currently happening.

Oak Tree wrote:

"My experience is that it's not normally the committee chairman who gets involved in the details of the Webelos transition, nor in setting the specifics of the outdoor program. The things you are describing doing sound more like what I would expect from a new, enthusiastic ASM. Now, your SM may be fine with having your help on this. He may welcome it, in fact. I'd ask him what parts of the program he think need the most work, and what you could do to support him in working on those."

The composition of our current committee is approx. 4 parents with boys in the unit and roughly 10 adults in the 55-60+ age range. They haven't had boys in scouts in at least....10 years? It's created a disconnect between the committee and the troop. We usually spend 5 minutes talking about the actual program the boys are running.

The SM has 3 assistants that show up regularly. One's son just made Eagle so I expect his contribution to drop off. Another has grand kids and his attendance to events can be spotty at times. The 3rd is a nice guy but isn't a hands on helper like the SM needs. I'm working on adding both of the current Web II leaders into ASMs right now. They are both gung ho - getting fully trained and doing Wood Badge this spring.

My time in the pack will serve us really well with getting new leaders into the mix - a big need right now.

I spoke with the SM yesterday and his biggest need is help - he needs help with the back office stuff - collecting permission slips, monies, etc. Our current treasurer only comes to committee meetings and refuses to get involved with that sort of stuff.

"Who is telling you that the boys need to do it? If it's the SM, you're going to have serious issues trying to override his style. If it's someone else, they should direct that comment to the SM. "

I've heard it from a few of the ASM - not anything confrontational. Honestly, I don't think the vast majority of people associated with this troop have any idea of what a truly boy run program is supposed to be.

I get along very well with the SM - we've known each other for years - we worked very well together when we were both in cubs. He wants a successful boy run program.

"Get everyone on the same vision. The best way to get willing volunteers is that they have an understanding and appreciation of what you all are trying to accomplish by running a troop - if they are with you on the vision, they are much more willing to be with you on the logistics. Whatever you can do to get all the adults to pull together is a great help as CC. "

I've asked the SM and ASMs as well as any committee members that want to - to get together in 3 weeks (post Klondike) to discuss our vision of the program. I'm very good at coordinating people and resources - it's my RL job. This is why I wanted the CC job in our unit.

Thanks for your feedback - I really appreciate it. My biggest concern was doing something wrong. I feel now like I'm heading in the right direction. The SM and I spoke last night and our goal is to have the troop vision in place by June. It's ambitious but doable I think.(This message has been edited by Bronco)

John in KC wrote:

"One caution: Let the Scoutmaster make decisions on hiring ASMs. They are responsible and accountable to him as the chief program guy for the Troop. You have a chop, but ASMs have to be able to work with and for the Scoutmaster."

Yes, I would expect his total buy in on people. I'm in a good spot right now as I know the vast majority of people in both the troop and the pack due to having boys in both units. I know the talents of the people coming up and can introduce them and let him know the best place to put people.

Thanks to all for their advice. I was voted in last night. I have 3 pages of notes to go over with the SM and his assistants. I think everyone was excited about the change.

Aquila wrote:

"Putting together a troop calendar is a group effort. The more the Scouts can do on their own the better. If the SM can work with the SPL and PLC to do the whole thing from scratch that will be great. If the secretary (Scribe) of the PLC can keep the calendar updated, and bring copies to every PLC meeting, and then update it after the meeting, fantastic! The same calendar needs to be reviewed at the troop committee meeting so appropriate adult leadership can be planned, funding can be reviewed, etc."

My hope is to take the next six months and use it to work with the SM to lay the groundwork for the boys to begin to operate the troop themselves come September 2011. We haven't run TLT or JLT in over a year although we do require SPLs to take NYLT. I want to get that and other 'must have' events on the calendar - currently we don't have one that extends beyond February. I also want to make sure the transition for our upcoming Webelos is as smooth as humanly possible. This in particular has been a real rough spot for our unit.

Am I missing something or is there no way to quote on these forums? Maybe it's a Firefox thing...

Aquila said:

"Recruit as much adult leader help as you possibly can. See the Troop Committee Guidebook for the necessary committee positions. Since you were a Pack CC you may already be familiar with these positions. "

I'm already farming the Sr. Web leaders to fill in the gaps for me in committee and in Troop Leadership as ASMs. There are a lot of parents that will get involved once they realize there is a need - due to the avg. age of the committee, many of the people that would be involved get the feeling that it is all 'being handled' and they don't need to get involved. That will change quickly. I'm thankful for my time as Cub Master/CC of the Pack as I'm already on a first name basis with just about every family in the Troop - something that can't be said for 90% of the current committee.

"Put together a troop calendar for the next year (the troop secretary can help with this)."

So this IS the responsibility of the committee? I've suggested several times that the boys need serious guidance with this issue - but I'm always told 'If we do that it isn't boy run.' As I said before - I don't care what they do - I just want to be sure they know of every option they have.

"All the committee members should be trained with Troop Committee Challenge and all the adult program leaders (SM and ASMs) MUST be trained in Youth Protection (now required in order to register as an adult leader)."

I think the need for Troop Committee Challenge will be the reason several of the current members of our committee will quit, they won't want to deal with the hassle. I've completed it already.

"Over the next couple of years get as much Scout training as you possibly can. Sign up for Wood Badge as soon as you can. "

I'm 3/5 of the way complete on my tickets - Wood Badge has it's place and I really enjoyed the experience but to me it wasn't the be all end all of true leadership and mentoring young men. I'm fully trained and have actually run courses at our council University of Scouting. I must say however, that these forums are THE biggest resource I have. Looking back at my own experience as a boy - the early to mid 80's - are closer to what I see several posters here talking about as ideal vs. what I'm seeing now.

My biggest concern is sitting on my hands long enough to let the dust settle from me stepping in before I start to make wholesale changes. The current CC has been in place for at least 10 years. When I joined this charter organization the pack was a 'family' pack - maybe 20 boys - I grew it to 40 and it now sits around 50. The Troop in turn was a 'family' troop that is now close to 40 boys, neither the adult leadership nor the boys have truly stepped up...yet.

BrotherhoodWWW wrote: You and the SM need to share the same goals and vision for your unit; if they do not you need to work out the differences to a point that they do.

You are correct, I will be acting as Troop CC. I've done the Cubmaster and Pack CC thing in the past and I realize this is a whole different animal.

What I'm struggling with is just how much the Troop CC is involved in the actual details of the Troop program. Our current committee is fairly out of touch with what is going on in the troop as very few members have children (or grand children for that matter) in the troop.

Our current SM is the parent of a boy in the unit and I get along fine with him. I know he has struggled at times dealing with the current composition of the committee.

Some examples of what I am considering:

I'm not happy with how our troop handles the Web to Scout transition on a yearly basis - is it ok for me to get directly involved in this process and set things in motion that will make for a much smoother transition?

I think we could do a much better job with the outdoor program. I know the boys are responsible for running the program - but I don't believe they understand all of the options that are available to them. Is it ok for me to sit down with the SM, create a menu of options then let the boys populate the yearly calendar with those choices and their own choices? I'd be ok if they picked nothing I suggested - I just want them to know it's an option for them.

I've contacted a few friends in other units and asked to attend their committee meetings to get an idea of how they are run as well.

In response to some of the other posts:

Sorry I wasn't clearer on which CC I was going to be. Thanks to those that gave me advice related to Cubs.

Our COR while a nice guy falls into the same disconnected group as the rest of the committee. Any time I've gone and asked him for advice I get stories about scouting in the 40's and 50's.

I'm well versed in tapping people for different roles - I plan to do that after hanging out for a month or so just to see how things settle out. When I took over as Cubmaster/Pack CC years ago all the old timers almost instantly vanished/stopped helping out when their buddy stepped down as Cubmaster. I'm expecting the same thing to happen again even though the person I'm replacing isn't the same as last time.

For those of you that have been around the block - what 3-5 things would you say to a person that is going to be stepping into this role in a few months?

Both in general and perhaps something specific that may not apply to everyone but would be helpful to read anyway.

Thanks!

Our unit went to Resica for years, took a break and went to Ockanickon for a bit and now for the past 4 years have gone back to Resica.

It is the camp I attended as a boy - so lot's of great memories for me.

From the boys perspective:

1. The lake is far away.

2. The new dining hall is a HUGE improvement.

3. Merit badge counselors are willing to work with boys during non-badge time.

4. The camp itself has several 'feature' water holes. Fossil Rock, Cool Dip (in another council owned camp that would require a drive) and others.

From my perspective:

I was not impressed with the remainder of the program. The staff wasn't overly friendly like I've seen them in the past. 2009 was better than 2010.

We are going back again next year. We plan to do a tour of camps this year and make a change most likely next year.

I recently ran into this issue with our Troop committee. I was always under the impression that projects should not benefit the troop - they should benefit the community. I was not aware of the routine maintenance not being acceptable issue.

Our troop is rather old (76 years) and the vast majority of the troop committee is comprised of members that have no children or even grandchildren in the troop. The main focus of our committee meetings is our Scout Cabin. The cabin is owned by our CO and is 'technically' called the Sunday School Cabin. It is always called the 'Scout Cabin' in general conversation. The cabin is very rustic and is used by our unit and a few other scouting units (both boy and girls) I never heard it called the Sunday School Cabin until I questioned why Eagle Projects were being approved for work at the Scout Cabin. I suggested that these projects should be stopped going forward as they only benefit scouts. I also mentioned that the project itself isn't something that the community would see in general and Eagle projects are great advertising for our movement.

I was told that because the cabin is owned by our CO and not the Troop itself it is ok, because it is the Sunday School Cabin it is ok, and because other people use it - not just Boy Scouts.

I replied that I think the committee should discuss the issue at our next meeting as I brought it up right at the end of the night.

Based on this, does this sound like an acceptable place for Eagle projects to happen?

For example, the last project that was approved involved repairing a concrete foundation that is being washed away by a small creek and the installation of a new concrete pad and privacy fence to allow us to place a porta-potty near the entrance of the property.

I understand that if Eagle projects are not allowed to occur back there that the cabin itself will suffer. It is the only way it gets any true upkeep. I don't believe that is good enough of a reason to allow this to continue.

I appreciate any advice on this.

I am fresh from weekend one of NE V 138 - Cradle of Liberty Council. I signed up for Wood Badge for a few reasons of which getting more ideas for my Pack/Troop was the primary. For background I'm an Eagle Scout from the mid 80s and took NYLT (Silver Stag) during that time.

The emotional exhaustion that the entire troop was suffering when The Game of Life was rolled out for us was visible. Everyone was giving their all and the competition throughout the day while friendly, was fierce. Our staff is phenomenal and they ran the game very very well from my perspective. It was interesting to watch as round by round patrols began to get it. I was acting Patrol Leader at the time of the game and our very diverse patrol was indeed 'guided' by an older member to understand the goal of the game around round 4 or 5.

Nine rounds in and the Fox patrol was still going for broke, making the best decision for them at the expense of the Owl & Bear patrols. The rampant cheering between patrols became more and more strident with some patrols simply cheering 'You Can ALL Win'...sadly, the Fox patrol did not get it and the game ended with all of us reciting the Scout Oath & Law. Our presenters had a nice spreadsheet that calculated the scores between rounds and presented them overhead. In the beginning between periods it flashed 'Win All You Can' which morphed into 'Can You All Win'. Perhaps too subtle for some to get, I don't know.

A friend from my unit is in the Fox patrol and his experience was very different from mine. He felt like he was being reprimanded at the end and that at least one other member of his patrol felt like leaving at that point.

I may have felt different had I not 'gotten it' but the message was strong and clear to me and the intensity of the moment made it very obvious.

I used to be a Beaver.