ThomasJefferson

Perhaps each group will get a new uniform change' date=' or maybe just a change in their epillet colors, so you will know who to avoid if they are wearing their class A uniforms.[/quote']

 

I don't like the sound of that at all: making people wear some symbol so you can keep track of them.

 

I hope these comments about the separating conservative and progressive scouts/scouters are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Do you really believe there exists conservative people who are so anti-gay that they won't attend a camp where there *might* be gay people? Really? How do they live like that? Seriously, how to they leave their homes, shop for groceries, stay in a hotel, tour a museum, attend a concert or visit an amusement park where there might be gay people?

dkurtenbach,

 

I did not join scouts to associate with certain kinds of people. I joined scouts to do scouting activities and to earn the eagle badge. I got used to the people who were in it, the same way I get used to the people on the company softball team that I otherwise would not associate with.

 

We are not free on the company softball team to tell people they are not welcome to join it. Legally, we could. But the company feels it is mean to treat people that way. So we let anyone join it who wants to.

 

Freedom of association is the same excuse used for racism in the past. It didn't make sense then. It doesn't make sense now.

>>I believe that atheism has lead me to become even more moral than I was as a child of religion.<<

 

I can understand that, atheism gives a freedom of not being tied to any specific moral doctrine. Atheists feel more moral because they can create their moral conduct for any situation or any mood. Today life is precious after the first trimester, tomorrow life changes to being precious after the second trimester. The next day life changes to be precious after…..

 

I can certainly see the temptation of atheism.

 

Barry

Becoming an atheist was not a temptation. It was terrifying and revolting to me. I was raised in a very religious household. My family was horrified. I cannot reveal my beliefs to my friends - especially in the scouts. I cannot comment on politics or religion. And, my safety net at the end of my life, and my comfort of thinking my parents and loved ones lost wait for me is gone.

It is anything but tempting. It is the opposite.

As for morals, you will have to show me evidence that any religion provides unchanging morality. I see great evidence that morality is changeable in religions based on popularity. You do not obey leviticus or endorse multiple wives as in the Old Testament do you? Are you going to burn a goat to worship god at an altar in the woods? Do you obey the San Hedron? Do you celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when it was orginally on Saturday?

Religious people adopt a preferred morality and then say that is what God wants. There is no God speaking. Just people writing books claiming they know what God wants and therefore they are right.

But you citing your imaginary friend doesn't make something morality.

Also, I'm not sure it is "moral" to take a hard line on something like abortion either for or against. I think understanding the complexity, the individual cases, and the competing rights of the baby and the mom with compassion makes it impossible to approach it simply.

Those against it are cruel to those that seek abortions.

Those in favor are cruel to potential people.

My morals are mine. I take responsibility for them and own them. They come from my experience and best judgment. Religious morals are what happens when people obey what other people tell them the imaginary spirits said instead of thinking for themselves and facing the terror of the unknown and difficult to understand puzzles that life presents us.

I joined the forum after lurking for a while. I'm probably too late for the original question about can an atheist be moral. I am an atheist, and yes, an atheist can be moral. In fact, I believe that atheism has lead me to become even more moral than I was as a child of religion.

As an atheist, I believe this life is the end. When I die, I cease to exist, just like before I was born. As does everyone. I will not meet my dead parents and grandparents. I will not meet up with my old pets. I will not see my wife and kids again. When I die, I'm just gone, and it is totally over.

That is a very sobering reality. This is the only ride I get. Life is so very fragile and precious. And we people are very weak and insignificant in the Universe with no one watching out for any of us. We only have each other for help and protection.

That pretty much makes me desperate for a wonderful world of peace and good morals.

I have a problem with watering down the Scout oath

Atheists like myself still obey the scout oath and law.

The scout oath says:

On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country

I do my best. My best is that I do not believe there is a God. I think it is a children's story made up to put priests in power by selling people comforting myths and legends. The best I can do is my duty to my country. I pay my taxes. I vote. And I speak out. I volunteer for things. Etc.

Likewise, I also obey the Scout Law:

A Scout is reverent. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

I am faithful in my religious duties. My religious duties are to wait for solid evidence of an afterlife or supreme being before I believe in one. In the meantime, I spend my time respecting the beliefs of others. Our scout unit has a chaplain. As the unit leader, I ask him to give prayers before eating or at the end of the meeting. I bow my head and remove my hat during prayers. In fact, sometimes I am the one leading the prayers when he is not there. I usually do the Great Scouter of all Scouts prayer, or the Philmont prayer. You religious guys seem to like those, and it seems courteous, kind, and friendly to fulfill my expected role in those areas.

I never speak about religion to boys in the unit. I assume the parents and the fundamentalist church that hired me to lead this unit without asking my religious background would not appreciate me evangelizing for atheism. So, I don't speak of it, and I tell my son to not speak of it to scouting friends.

Should I be kicked out? I don't think so. Should I be allowed to be an atheist openly? Yes. Would I do so openly? No. I would remain secretive about it and continue to lie to people about my religion. I wish I could be trustworthy on the topic, but BSA and the COR's beliefs have placed me in the difficult position of having to lie to maintain my membership. As I teach my sons, "A Scout Is Trustworthy" does not mean that he outs himself as a Jew to Nazis. It just means people can rely on you. So far, this unit has relied on me, and I have delivered.

Without me, this unit dies. I am what holds it together.

I wish religion would go away from the world. I think it is nonsense. But, that will never happen, so I work within the confines that those who still need it require, and it is a sacrifice on my part that you who despise me will never understand or appreciate.

Meanwhile, all around me I listen to people tell me about how atheists cannot be good people, because apparently everyone will murder and steal without religion.

I am a black man before MLK came along in a way. I'm OK with it. One day, religion will start to fizzle as we continue to advance technologically. Just like in Europe. For now, this is us, and I am one of us, so I do my job. I'm the best man for it.