LVAllen

23 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

  It seems the council felt virtual was the best thing ever and the less they had to do.  Could still raise money, still pay salaries, close the camps so money saved there but no real PROGRAM input. 

My council and many others, it seems, offered virtual merit badge classes. My council, and many others, it seems, offered these same online merit badge classes for $10-20 a pop, even though the council obviously wasn't providing physical materials for project requirements, printouts, etc.

This is your council desparately trying to attract users for their camp property. 

That said, this method had been in place for years at Philmont. Every year, Philmont hosted an LDS Priesthood Leadership Training Conference. The attendees brought their wives and children. While the Leadership was being trained, their wives and children (both sons and daughters) enjoyed Philmont's adventures. 

2 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I’m looking for any tips, suggestions, etc for my upcoming Eagle Court if Honor in June.

If anyone has any advice please post it!

You've been in Scouts long enough to have seen Courts of Honor with elements you didn't like, or that took too long, or that were boring. Don't do those things.

You've also probably seen events that were fun, that kept things moving, and that everyone enjoyed. Make it like those events. 

If you're planning it, it's your show.  Let a little swagger show in your step as you reap the rewards of a long journey. Then turn around and work to help others enjoy their own journey. Congratulations. 

On 3/26/2019 at 8:29 AM, willray said:

No, that's a different sentence.  The first sentence requires demonstration of how to use a handheld GPS unit, GPS app, or other navigation system.  The second sentence requires using a GPS to find your location, a destination, and a route, and then following the route.

A GPS is not a navigation system.  Many integrated navigation systems include GPS units, and many GPS units now include navigation systems, but they are _not_ the same thing.  Words mean things.  Just like if the first sentence said "use a GPS system, compass and map, or navigation system to do X", and the second sentence said "Use a compass to do Y", they'd really mean specifically compass, and not GPS or navigation system for the requirement in the 2nd sentence, in this case they said GPS.  A GPS tells you where it is physically located.  Period.

Ummm... "Find your location, a destination, and the route you will take..." sure sounds like finding a route to me.  Through all of history, "finding a route" has meant sitting down with a map, and planning out the path on that map that will take you from point A to point B.  I see no reason to assume that the meaning of the language has suddenly changed.

I've used GPS devices since the late 90s. They have varied in complexity, in map detail, in cost, and in ease of use. But every last one of them allowed you to enter in Waypoints and follow a route. It isn't just a YOU ARE HERE sign.

20 hours ago, acco40 said:

Scouting events shouldn't be used to promote gear.  I've taught certain Scout courses, to adults mostly, where we bring samples of what we own and give "pros" and "cons" to certain equipment but we don't have a vested monetary interest in what others will decide to buy.   I'm not aware of any vendors at scouting events that I've attended other than those having a general store at summer camp and vending machines with logos.

We don't want to go "Mar-a-Lago" like or "Bedmister" like and mix scouting with for personal profit motive in our actions.   We already have enough of that in our country today (sorry for getting on my soapbox).

21 hours ago, acco40 said:

Scouting events shouldn't be used to promote gear.  I've taught certain Scout courses, to adults mostly, where we bring samples of what we own and give "pros" and "cons" to certain equipment but we don't have a vested monetary interest in what others will decide to buy.   I'm not aware of any vendors at scouting events that I've attended other than those having a general store at summer camp and vending machines with logos.

We don't want to go "Mar-a-Lago" like or "Bedmister" like and mix scouting with for personal profit motive in our actions.   We already have enough of that in our country today (sorry for getting on my soapbox).

The vendors at Mountain Man Rendezvous are mainly food & beverage. You've also got knife vendors (must have a Totin' Chip on your person to purchase anything), homemade fire-starters, silversmiths, etc. It's in keeping with the theme of a Mountain Main Rendezvous in which mountain men came down for a little bit of trading, a little bit of fun, and a little bit of other stuff. The scouts are there for the shooting, archery, atlatl throwing, skills contests, and for the fun. Also for the bottled root beer (They sell you a bottle, and provide free refills. We had scouts keep their bottles from years past solely for the purpose of getting this root beer, which apparently is tasty).

20 hours ago, skeptic said:

This is heavy on the "deep pockets" theme.  Is the family suing the vendor?  Are they suing the family of the youth that is alleged to have shot the arrow?  

As long as we allow our society to be one of uncontrolled lawsuits and lack of personal responsibility we will see this.  Every day almost I see lawyers advertising on TV about this or that; "did you have an accident?  You have rights, and we can help you."  "There is a class action lawsuit and you may be able to get some of the action.  Call us now before you miss out."  Papers and magazines very often have ads for "legal" representation for the unfair or awful thing that happened to you, even if the responsible party took responsibility or insurance covered it without a fight.  Unless we, as a country, have the backbone to put on the brakes, it will simply continue to get worse.  But I would not hold your breath, as ego and money are stronger much of the time than personal ethics and responsibility for our own actions.

The family has not filed a lawsuit naming the vendor, the youth, the SMs of either unit. Just the council and BSA. The mention a SM, but don't include him as a defendant. It's possible they have already settled with other parties before filing a suit. Of course, they are also alleging $270,000 in current medical expenses, including an prosthetic eye. Let's not forget that there are serious injuries here. I'm not sure how raising "personal responsibility" would have prevented the Scout's injuries. Do you think he should bear the responsibility for losing an eye?

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I always get sad when I hear about a MB class that is an eight hour lecture.  The only time I've seen class based do well is when there is something that makes it personal and connects with the scout.  An eight hour lecture is not scouts and not how we do things.   Filling in blanks on a worksheet is not scouting and does NOT replace the requirement to interact and fulfill the expectations. 

What makes this worse is that Environmental Science does not have to be done this way. Half of the requirements can be done by doing experiments, for crying out loud. 8 hours of lecture and fill-in-the-blanks? That sounds awful. 

1 hour ago, Buggie said:

Should state that this is the minimum. I don't think there is a maximum recommendation. I've always held that the more you have, the quality starts to fall. Some scouts are doing great, others are doing their best to skate. 

The Boy Scout Handbook says nothing about "register for a merit badge class" or "participate in a merit badge workshop." Neither does the Troop Leader Guide. Both say for the Scout to contact the MB counselor, and that the Scout must have a buddy whenever they meet with the counselor. The Troop Leader Guide says

"The Scout sets up and—along with another Scout, a relative, or a friend—attends his first appointment with the merit badge counselor."

From that, it seems to me that the recommended program is one or two scouts meeting with a counselor. If one scout meets, he/she brings along someone else, although that person need not be a scout.

2 Scouts (or 1 Scout and a buddy) meeting with 1 counselor. 

Source: explanation given to Scouts, found in Boy Scout Handbook, for earning a merit badge.

9 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

The other thing we aren't considering is the boondoggle that is the Summit. This article is a few years old, and predates the loss of the LDS partnership. I can only imagine these numbers are even more grim today. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boyscouts-finances-specialreport/special-report-a-439-million-camp-adds-to-boy-scouts-money-crunch-idUSBRE96E08B20130715

Don't forget the balloon payment of $136 million due in 2022 from the 2012 10-year bonds.

22 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Any other info on this?   I am not sure how its the fault of the BSA that a Scout did something stupid with something he bought at an event.  I understand the BSA has deeper pockets than an individual Scout.

 

https://www.apnews.com/3ea0abd816fd439fbdfa0be7afc79484

I wasn't there, but the date coincides with an annual Mountain Man Rendezvous. As is typical, they had knife throwing, archery, black powder rifle/shotgun, etc. At least for this year's event, the vendors were not allowed to sell projectile toys or bows. I don't know about 2016.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

I think the troop is missing an opportunity. Yes, it is very hard to work with re-arranged spaces (classrooms? cafeterias? hallways?) and to prepare vendors to move stuff.  But, it is much harder to regain your customer base after a cancellation.

Speaking of customers, some basketball and football players are also fans of the franchise, and their parents still have some shopping to do for Christmas. State championship? A lot of fans are wondering how they are gonna make up lost shopping hours with their kids.

The squeeze would be tough, but lemonade sells just like lemons.

The article says the Scouts had to obtain a permit from the county to operate, and the permit was only valid for the approved space (the gym). On their Facebook page, they mention that the previous year's venue had a team qualify for the same game last year, but that school simply moved the team to another part of the school, and the two events never interfered with each other.

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

I browsed through the Examples section, to see the examples of flyers/materials/marketing that use confusing language. Although I still don't agree with the lawsuit, broadly speaking, the examples are jarring. What were these Packs/Troops/Councils thinking?

"Come talk to me about the Girl Scouts BSA Troops forming in Kirkland!"

"We will be forming a Girl Scout Troop in February."

"Girl Scout Volunteer Opportunity"

Using the Girl Scouts slogan in marketing materials.

Using quotes from Juliette Gordon Low in OFFICIAL BSA marketing materials.

😧

Come on, people. Be a little smarter about how you word things.

If National wants to quote me, I'd be happy to tell them about the GSUSA recruiter who, in 2015, insisted to me that Girl Scouts could now earn Eagle.

Welcome to scouter.com! 

It sounds like you've got two issues here. The first is that, in Scouting, we use constructive discipline. Our aim is to mold young men, which is difficult if we kick them out at the first sign of trouble. On the other hand, the Scouts' safety comes first, and it sounds like the SPL was acting un-Scoutlike in a way that was endangering another Scout. There have to be direct, proportionate consequences for that action. Given the severity of the breach of the Scout Law, I think an immediate counseling with the SPL and his parents is warranted, probably followed by a removal of the Scout from active participation. It's up to his parents to correct his behavior, but until they and he can assure you that nothing remotely like this will ever be an issue again, he simply can't participate. Given the sexual nature of the behavior, as well as the possibility that your son was singled out because of his developmental delays,  I don't think you have any choice but to give the SE the heads up.

Some helpful tools: 

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/incident-report/

9 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

For some reason reading this exchange I've found myself humming a certain Monty Python song. All together now "I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok...."

I love being a Boy Scout, there's nothing I'd rather be- 

But if I wasn't a Boy Scout - A Girl Scout I would be!

Ding-dong, Hi there! Wanna buy some cookies?

3 hours ago, fred johnson said:

My experience with cub scouts was that the youngest (1st and 2nd) grades did not initially know it was boy only.  They had to "learn" that. 

Clarke Green over at scoutmastercg.com recently posted a podcast in which he discussed his troop's reaction to female scouts during a trip to the International Scout Center in Switzerland. It took his troop maybe ten minutes to grasp the concept that the females they saw weren't Girl Scouts, they were just Scouts. 

7 hours ago, gblotter said:

Congratulations on being superior.

Sure - I always take away tips and tricks whenever I can.

I think what Barry is hinting at is did you shortchange your youth leadership of teaching opportunities and character development in favor of learning from "true experts"? Scouts may want to get the knowledge without having to teach it themselves, but since Scoutcraft and skills instruction aren't actually one of the Aims of Scouting, having them teach it to their troopmates is a better way of encouraging their personal development, even if they miss things an expert would know. In the same vein, did the scouts in the troop learn ideas they can use to improve their own ways of teaching, or will the next crop of Scouts be expected to "go learn from the true experts"?

Is there a betting pool for the date on which the sale of the first camp is announced?

54 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Removal from elected or appointed office:

Is that supported somewhere? I can't find anything that supports that in the GtoA.

Here you go:

Quote

 

Guide to Advancement 4.2.3.4.5 When Responsibilities Are Not Met. If a unit has clearly established expectations for position(s) held, then—within reason—a Scout must meet them through the prescribed time. If he is not meeting expectations, then this must be communicated early. Unit leadership may work toward a constructive result by asking him what he thinks he should be accomplishing. What is his concept of the position? What does he think his troop leaders—youth and adult—expect? What has he done well? What needs improvement? Often this questioning approach can lead a young man to the decision to measure up. He will tell the leaders how much of the service time should be recorded.

If it becomes clear nothing will improve his performance, then it is acceptable to remove the Scout from his position. It is the unit leader’s responsibility to address these situations promptly. Every effort should have been made while he was in the position to ensure he understood expectations and was regularly supported toward reasonably acceptable performance. It is unfair and inappropriate—after six months, for example— to surprise a boy who thinks he has been doing fine, with news that his performance is now considered unsatisfactory.

 

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

I have no knowledge about what may or may not be happening with Personal Progress or Activity Days.

It does seem that the Church is generally moving away from awards as a motivation and more towards personal development. The key phrase I remember is that activity programs will be focused on meeting needs, not satisfying requirements.

Follow the link that began this thread. It's right at the top of the page.

"New approach to replace all existing activity programs for girls and boys, young women and young men beginning in January 2020."

The boys' activity program within the US (Cub Scouts) and without (Activity Days) - Gone.
The girls' activity program (Activity Days) - Gone.
Faith in God (religious program for both boys and girls) - Gone.
The Young Men activity program inside the US and Canada (Scouting) - Gone.
Duty to God - Gone.
The Young Women activity program (Personal Progress) - Gone.

And if your activity programs (Scouting or otherwise) were ever focused on satisfying requirements, you were doing it wrong. You wouldn't be doing it unusually wrong, sad to say, but wrong nonetheless. The fact that you would suggest (and I would heartily agree) that some wards focused on checking off boxes only underscores my point about the church being unable to deliver a NAS program using the same people who were unable or unwilling to deliver the previous program, even with the available support.

40 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Obviously, I do not speak for the Church. I speak only for myself as an LDS Scoutmaster when I refer to my uneasiness and discord with BSA's leftward lurches.

"I have felt increasing discord ..."

"My uneasiness grows ..."

The problem is that claims of "leftward lurches" doesn't explain the abandonment of Personal Progress or Activity Days, which are also falling by the wayside.

3 hours ago, gblotter said:

Ours is a multi-generational LDS Scouting family with three generations of Eagle Scouts and two generations of Scoutmasters. In spite of my dedication to Scouting, I have felt increasing discord each time BSA takes a left turn. My uneasiness grows with each new announcement from Irving. Our missions are diverging: The BSA program is changing to seek greater approval and acceptance from the world; the church youth program is changing to seek greater approval and acceptance from God. So be it - each organization should have control over its own destiny.

The more details I learn about the replacement LDS youth activity program, the more confidence I have that separating from BSA is the right decision. There will be better alignment with church standards. There will greater consistency in the experience of all youth (boys and girls, US and non-US). There will be better utilization of limited resources (Scouting has always been very resource intensive). There will be less focus on badges and awards, more focus on personal development (spiritual, social, physical, intellectual).

As a reference point, this is the LDS youth program that replaced Varsity Scouts and Venturing:  https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng  (you will notice many activity components familiar to Scouting).

I would expect something similar to replace the Boy Scout program. The future is bright.

Gblotter,  the fact the church ripped off huge portions of the Venturing program does not make me feel more inclined to believe that the Church can successfully create a program out of whole cloth. Rather, the opposite.

I'm glad you feel confident. I do not. I imagine the New and Shiny world wide program to look very much like the program provided to those outside the US and Canada for decades - barely conceived, poorly supported, poorly implemented. It will largely place the burden of creating and providing the program on the backs of parents and adult youth leaders, without the massive amount of support and training  previously offered by the Scouting curriculum.

9 hours ago, Eagledad said:

What exactly do you need? How to train for the planning? How to do planning? Both?

Barry

Mostly training on how to guide a relatively new SPL through the process. I don't believe he's worked through the process before, so I want to give him the support he needs so that he feels it's successful.

On 4/7/2016 at 3:15 PM, TAHAWK said:

In several publications, BSA states that annual program planning is to be accomplished by the PLC,  led by the SPL. The SM acts as a coach for the SPL and a resource.

 

In two publications that I can find, BSA says that the SPL presents the proposed annual plan to the Troop Committee, which is to remember that program is to be Scout-planned when considering whether the Troop has sufficient resources to support the proposed program.

 

These current BSA statements are consistent with BSA policy for over eighty-five years.

 

 

Inconsistent with those eighty-five years of statements is the current BSA web article entitled "Planning."  http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/ProgramPlanning.aspx

 

This web article says the following:

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this is, in part, simply very poor writing.  But the error in stating that the Committee, COR, and UC (and other adults) are invitees is a clear violation of BSA policy. The presence of so many adults will change the process even if, as seems unlikely, they never open their mouths. And the stated claim that they need to be there for "efficiency" suggests that they are absolutely expected to participate.  For a typical troop, the Scouts present could be outnumbered two-to-one. -- or more.

Sorry to bring this post back from the dead, but my troop is just about to through the planning process again, so I was going through the PM forum for ideas. It struck me that the article described in this ancient post sounded familiar, so I looked back at my Troop Leaders Guidebook. 

Yep. Word for word. Guess all this garbage is official now.

Any suggestions on how to provide practical training to the youth leadership on how to plan long-term? 

"Today, all these layers feel burdensome and people are prioritizing their time, ignoring some parts and under-supporting others."

But surely, once we unveil the One Layer, the Layer to rule all other Layers, THAT will make Scouters listen.

3 hours ago, gblotter said:

During this entire discussion with my father-in-law, I kept reminding him that national leadership was in such a rush to announce a BSA4G program that had not even been defined. This wasn't half-baked - it wasn't even in the oven yet. All they could say about the new program was "trust us, it will be wonderful". Why do it like this? BSA National has acted with an urgent disorganization that speaks of desperation. The fact that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth about Family Scouting and the integration of girls is only further evidence. Even now - 6 months out - confused messages emerge from those involved with these inside conversations. Is the Family Scouting program even the same thing as the Scouts BSA girl program? - I'm not convinced that it is. These bumblers in Irving are making this up as they go along. My father-in-law is only relaying his interpretation of a program that still being formulated (with less than 6 months before rollout). Nothing in this process inspires confidence.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be wrong on this point), but nowhere has BSA National leadership said that the Scouts BSA program will not change in order to integrate girls. They have never said that the traditional Scouting program will be preserved in Scouts BSA. They have only said that the path to Eagle will be the same for boys and girls.

"Q. Will you change the program to accommodate girls?  

Our existing programs are relevant for both young men and women. After all, the values of Scouting as outlined in the Scout Law – trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent – are relevant and important values for both young men and women. As such, the program for girls, ages 11 to 17 will be the same curriculum offered in the Boy Scout program."