Zahnada

Bob, Bob, Bob...

No, I'm afraid I do not have a magic pair of glasses that I can don that allow me to see everybody's pain. And I also do not have a guide that tells me the proper course of action for every situation.

HOWEVER I have a good idea when someone's in a difficult situation. And sometime's it is very obvious when a teenage boy needs help. The issue we're dealing with is if a boy's sexuality prevents him from being a scout. In such a case then I know it was not me who brought up sexuality (so you don't have to worry about my removal from BSA).

And once again, I feel it is no great liability to offer my support to a child who will face a difficult life. It is no great liability to say, "There are places you can go if you need more help. There are places you can go that deliver a similar program to scouting." I would never say, "Get out. And I can't talk to you anymore because I might get sued or removed from scouting."

And so no, I am not an expert on the suffering of homosexuals. But as a human, I want to help those who might need and want it. If it becomes apparent to me that a boy may need my aid, I will do what I can. It may not be much, but I will try. To remove a boy from an organization he loves for a reason that already adds stress to his life will probably be hard on him. It will be a tough transition. I want to help him.

Well Bob, I can see we're deadlocked on this issue. I detected quite a bit of sarcasm in your last post and I don't care for conversations to go that route. Therefore, I propose we end it here and leave some webspace open for scouter.com.

Bob White,

I'll start by answering your questions. Hypotheticals are always tough to answer because we can never know all the facts. The main question I have about the situation is whether the boy is comfortable or not in his sexuality. That makes a huge difference on my next course of action.

I disagree that we can automatically assume that the parents are aware of how strongly the Boy Scouts support their position. Although this is a high profile case, people do have a seletive perception so a person unaffiliated with BSA probably knows very little about the case. Therefore, I would explain that it is against regulation (which I would hate to do).

But I wouldn't leave it at that. I would automatically direct them towards other programs that offer similar programs to Boy Scouts. I don't think this situation is much of a problem because the boy sounds like he's accepted his sexuality. It's unfortunate that he cannot enjoy scouting.

The problems with this policy arise when it involves a boy already in the troop. It's a problem when the boy has developed a love of scouting and a respect for his leaders. If, at this vulnerable point in life, he realizes that he is gay then he will experience a stress and fear that we can hardly imagine. He probably knows that this course of life is the difficult one and he may try to fight it. If is now when depression comes into play. Now he feels unaccepted by general society. And it is at this time that the scouting organization will turn him away.

So what do you do in that situation? I hope that everyone in this forum is willing to extend their support to this boy. I hope that every scout wants to help this boy whether he remains a member of the troop or not. This boy is not a threat. He is not a danger. I won't debate the issue on whether he should be removed from scouting, but I will argue that the leaders still have a responsibility to help him. I don't mean counselling sessions. I think we as leaders need to assess the situation and maybe send him to a real counsellor.

I agree that a drug addict is a danger to the troop. Safety always comes first. But a gay boy is not a safety concern for the troop. The only safety concern I would have for a gay boy is the concern for his personal safety from depression. And it is wrong to believe that such a person is not our responsibility to help if we can.

"We are not talking about a scout who is depressed and contemplating suicide. You are talking about someone who is abusing drugs and quite likely has broken the law."

I am very much talking about depression and suicide. I don't know when the conversation began to link the experience of a gay youth to the experience of a drug addict.

As for the drug addict, I agree that they have no place in the troop. As I stated before, safety first. And I like how you went through the parents to deal with the situation. I'm glad that the door to your troop is open for them when they get better. I like how you handle the situation. I would add that I would give the parents assurance that I am there for support. I would also extend the same to the youth. Some follow-ups are always important to let them know that I still care and that scouting is still there.

It's sad, but it's life. Unfortunately I think we can all agree that more boys bring drugs, tobacco, alcohol, and pornography on outings than we are aware. There are also more gay scouts out there than we are aware. I hate to see any boy experience a rough life. I guess I'm a catcher in the rye, but I feel that a purpose of scouting is to help anyone who needs it and wants it. There is no better good deed.

Bob White,

I hate arguments based solely on wording, but if that is what you choose...

"If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away?"

You took this statement as an indication that I would leave the boy in the troop. To leave a drug addict with other boys is irresponsible. It is just as irresponsible as throwing that boy out the door and turning my back on him. Either way, you are doing neither the boy nor society any great favor.

You say you will turn him away "in a heart beat" and I find that sad. I hope that there are scout leaders who will offer to help the boy find the right path. The first step of that journey would naturally take place outside the troop, but our responsibility as scouts does not only exist in the troop. So in answer to your question, I would not allow that boy to stay in the troop. But I would not "turn him away" and abandon him "in a heart beat."

As to your other point, I still stand by my statement that I don't like seeing ANYONE turned away. Naturally I don't like that. Do you? I don't like it because I don't like the fact that there are rapists, pedophiles, murders, and any number of other types of people who should not be in scouting. I hope that clears up some misunderstanding. I never said that I would throw the doors to scouting open to everyone. I just wish that the world was such that it would be safe.

However, I do not like the linking of homosexuality to a criminal act. Whether intentioned or not, your argument seems to make that connection. Sexuality is vague. Is a person who has some attraction to members of the same sex gay? What if they never act on these feelings? Does this make them worthy of expulsion from BSA?

Teen depression and teen suicide are important for any scout leader to understand. Scouts have a deep respect for the program and their leaders. To know that the program has (at least as your posts seems to indicate) lumped them with other "undesirables" such as necrophiliacs and wife beaters must be hard on a youth. It is hard to be unwanted. At this time I will not debate the actual policy of whether to allow gays or not. I am debating the way BSA handles scouts who are gay. To cast them aside "in a heart beat" is cruel especially if they have no where else to turn. The LEAST we could do is to show them places to go for help.

Actually Bob White, your post bothers me. If you found out a boy in your troop was a drug addict would you turn him away? Would you say, "You're not welcome in Boy Scouts and I won't help you."?

I feel it is very unscoutlike to simply cast aside the people who engage in a lifestyle we don't agree with. (and some of the traits you listed are illegal and in my mind that puts them in a very different category than homosexuality)

And you say that it's not the BSA's responsibility to help gay boys. Maybe not officially, but as a scout I feel it is my responsibility to help anyone who needs it or desires it. The fact is that some boys do not know how to seek out whatever help they need. If Boy Scouts is going to turn them away, the least we can do is point them in a useful direction. It is wrong to simply wash our hands of the issue. That is dehumanization. You mention that there are organization who can direct boys to other groups who will help them. Let's give these boys the number of those organizations! As scouts and as humans it should be our responsibility.

Your statements disillusion me on scouting Bob White. If all Boy Scouts are only willing to help fellow scouts then the program has already failed. If people are willing to hide behind the statement "It's not the official responsibility of BSA so it's not my responsibility" then scouting has failed. If the people with real problems are the ones who are least deserving of aid then the system is flawed.

Well, we can't complain about the United Way. Boy Scouts is a private organization with the power to make decisions that are not favored by all. By the same standards, the United Way can make decisions on how to run their organization and what groups to include. It's too bad this conflict exists, but both groups made their decisions in an attempt to please their members and supporters.

In regards to the contraversy, I agree with much of what the article says. The teenage years are the most difficult in a young man's life. He fights for the acceptance of his peers. This is especially rough on a gay man. I hate the idea of the Boy Scouts basically saying, "You're kind is not welcome here" to anyone. This puts a lot of pressure on a young man and although it is not the goal, this dehumanizes him.

Whether you believe that homosexuality is right or wrong, I hope we can all agree that gays need help. Some will argue that they need help to find a better way of life. Others will say they need help to accept who they are. Either way, I'm sorry that Boy Scouts has deemed these individuals unworthy of help. If nothing else, Boy Scouts should assist these young men in finding similar organizations who will offer the support they need.

Quick question: What if a council (and there may be one out there) has a Confederate flag on their patch? What do you do?

I would like to respond to a short comment Ed made. "PC & Scouting don't mix. Nor should they."

I understand what you're saying and I in part agree. Someone will always be offended no matter what the situation and so complete PC is impossible. I would hate for all of America's enemies and their motives to be omitted from history (much like how the Japanese attempt to forget WWII).

However, I feel this is a very self-destructive attitude. While Boy Scouts cannot please everyone (they've proven that in recent years) we must to sensitive to issues. I fear the Boy Scouts can be too conservative at times and this prevents them from evolving and changing as time changes (and I don't just mean the gay debate).

Anyway, I have a feeling my ramblings have indeed started to ramble so I will withdraw now. If you can't see my point, then it's ok. I don't know if I have one.

This is truly a shame. I always respected General Lee. He has always been one of my favorite generals and definitely one of the greatest generals in the history of America.

Did anyone else see the History Channel's show, "April 1865"? It talks about how Lee kept the war from going guerilla (I'll never learn how to spell that word). He also was not a racist. The show ends with him being the only member of a Virginian church to accept communion with a black man.

I really hope that Lee is not wiped out of history by this type of action. We should respect all who have fought for and against America and understand the reasons behind their actions. We must learn and remember history because it defines who we are.

I'm a college boy. Thus explaining some of my political stance.

Wallace,

I would like to add to your advertising comments. I think BSA needs to engage in a multi-pronged advertising campaign. I also noticed that high adventure ads are no where to be seen. But the ads I do see are directed almost exclusively towards parents. These are ads that emphasize the morals of scouting (important, but not inspiring to a youth until they experience it themselves). The pictures on the ads are of boys in uniform saluting the American flag. I think the main target is obvious: the parents.

They need to target the youth at all ages. I would love to see ads of boys on a 100 mile backpacking trek. Ads of boys not wearing uniforms and out doing activities like scouts. We have so much to offer.

I know I personally would have been more inspired to join if I saw pictures of boys having adventures instead of standing at attention. While the moral side of scouting is one of our most important aspects, the adventure side is ignored in ads. Two pronged attack! One for the parents and one for the kids. It's like how the Army had the ads with people interviewing for a job and explaining their qualifications (gained from the military) and then they had ads of people jumping out of helicopters. Appeal to everyone!

The "coolness" level of scouting is so interesting as it changes through a boy's age. In elementary school, almost every boy is a Cub Scout. Some join willingly, many are forced by parents, some join to be with friends. Elementary school boys don't have any shame in scouts because everyone else is also in the same program.

There's no huge problem in high school either. While some teasing occurs, and boys often don't wear uniforms to school, most people don't care. Many high schoolers realize that an Eagle Scout has a full resume that will play a vital role in college admissions. They have also heard all the stories about the white-water rafting, the backpacking, and the rock climbing.

The trouble spot is middle school. Middle school (ages 12-14) is the time when "coolness" becomes life. Nobody is content with their popularity status. They have been thrown together with a bunch of new people and are convinced that the one with the most friends will come out on top. A definite "cool" group emerges too. This is when people drop out of Boy Scouts, usually before First Class. They use excuses of time commitments or lack of interest, but we need to face it that Boy Scouts is a taboo subject in many schools. It's something boys are ashamed of and want to hide. And this is the moment when boys cross over from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.

Why has Scouting gotten this "uncool" stigma at this stage of life? I believe it is the connection to Cub Scouts. No matter how impressive a troop's program is, the boys who aren't scouts and whose opinions are so important will not approve. Many of these "cool" boys were in Cub Scouts and they walk away with images of uniforms and den leaders. They haven't been introduced to high adventure. Schemas have been formed and won't change for many years.

The middle school mind has confused the chicken with the egg. It is their thoughts that Boy Scouts is an extension of Cub Scouts because Boy Scouts comes after Cubs. So why spend five more years of life doing elementary school projects?

While the Cub Scout experience is not negative for these boys, the memories are of an elementary program. Middle school is puberty and the beginnings of manhood. Connections with the infant world of the past must be broken to be "cool." Middle school boys can't listen to their parents, conform by wearing uniforms, or do arts and crafts.

Boy Scouts needs to be advertised as the high adventure experience it is. Since there are no requirement connections between Cubs and Boys, and no program connections, I think they need to be separated. Let Boy Scouts stand alone and the boys will come. They will see it for what it is instead of most of the same old elementary school activities.

Yay for rants!

I know many of you won't agree with me, but if we want to increase Boy Scout membership and "coolness" we need to separate it from Cub Scouts.

When boys reach middle school and "coolness" becomes the ultimate goal in life, scouting is equated to their elementary school experience of Cub Scouts. Cub Scouts aren't high adventure. They are the ones who perform the arts and crafts that middle school boys wouldn't dare touch. They are the ones who go to their parent's house after school instead of going on weekend hikes.

BSA has focused its advertising on attracting boys for the Cub Scout level and I feel that is an error. As long as Boy Scouts is seen as an extension of Cub Scouts, then middle school boys will always regard it as "uncool."

I think "One Tin Soldier" has a fine message. It's all in the interpretation. I would caution its use with younger Cub Scouts though. The chorus is the only part many of them hear or remember so they'll leave the song with the lines, "Go ahead and hate your neighbor. Go ahead and cheat a friend." The rest of the chorus gets more difficult to decipher meaning from. I've had a couple young boys confused about the content of the song.

It's better than some other songs I've heard at campfires. Most notably, "Shaving Cream" where everytime the audience expects a certain word that starts with "s" it is replaced by "Shaving cream." I've also heard "My Ding-a-ling" which I'm sure most of you are familiar with. And there's another song that I don't know the title of, but the rhyming scheme leads the audience to expect certain words and terms.

Problems can be found with any song that wasn't written for scouts (and with some that were). Most Oldies make use of concepts like womanizing, drugs, and subtle sexual inferences. Rap and punk rock is much less subtle.

Just remember the purpose of music in Scouting. It is to bring everyone together in an enjoyable and energetic way to build a community.

As you said, the trick to knowing knots is using them often. Once someone starts using knots and tying them for reasons besides merit badges and rank advancement, then they will remember the knot.

I always make sure they learn the knot in a practical setting. When tying down a dining fly or a tent, two half-hitches and a tautline hitch are wonderful. Once boys see the uses of those knots in a practical setting, they will see the knot's value. And then they will use the knot and remember.

Besides that, the only pioneering advice I can give is to practice, practice, practice. The best way to learn splicing is to sit down with a huge box of rope and go to work. That's how I finally learned and I never forgot.

hops_scout,

I felt I owed you a reply.

"You mention we spend soooo much on our military...

I wonder why?? Only because we are free and so many countries are not. Therefore, we are the best military force in the world, no doubt."

Actually the United States does not spend "soooo much" on our military. It really only accounts for 3.2% of our GDP. Compare that with Israel at 8.25% or North Korean at over 30%. The real issue is: The US has tons of money. Is humanitarian aide the better use of it or is military support? It can be argued that our military budget keeps other people free (as we attempt to do with the people of Iraq). It enters us into a paradox. Does preparing for war help peace? But it is clear that the cost of one nuclear submarine can have huge impacts on the quality of life in many places. Anyway, it's just a thought.

I'm not sure if I understand your logic about why our freedom creates the best military. Maybe I misunderstand.

But in any case, this war will be good if it is followed by massive humanitarian aide to the people of Iraq. If this war just reduces the price of American gas, then it loses my support.

I don't mean to start a topic concerning the contraversy surrounding the impending war with Iraq. I'll leave that to the Issues and Politics forum. I'm wondering what if any actions your troops take to support the troops in the war? Regardless of our personal feelings about the legitimacy of war, it should be considered a given that we, as Americans, support our young men who have been called upon to fight. Is it the place of BSA to take an active role in that support?

Also, I'd like to connect this to the fundraising topic. Can a Boy Scout troop do fundraising for an organization like the Red Cross in uniform? Just curious on where the lines are drawn.

An interesting add-on to this conversation is the topic of improv. More than once, I've seen boys faced with the challenge of finding a new skit and they have turned to "Whose Line is it Anyway?" for inspiration.

What are your thoughts on improvisation? The pros are that it can be hilarious. It's always fresh and new. It really showcases the acting talent of some boys. It gets the audience involved.

The cons are that it cannot be pre-approved by an adult because there is nothing to approve. Therefore, the content can become tedious or unacceptable. These boys are also not professional improv artists so a really good act may be hard to find.

I find it an interesting concept. It has made for some of the best and worst campfires I have seen.

I need some help. My school offers some excellent research grants and fellowships for innovative research. Such research should be done on topics that interest the researcher and I figured that Boy Scouts would be the perfect topic for me.

I want my research to take me to England to study the origins of the scouting movement. My main interest in scouts is the leadership aspect. I am hoping to perform some possible comparison between leadership camps in England and the United States and maybe how the differences reflect the two cultures.

As you can see, this idea has not been brainstormed much and I was hoping that this forum could help me with that. Does anyone have any good ideas for interesting research on scouting and leadership that might have implications outside the organization? Are there any research questions not necessarily related to those topics that you might want answered? Any ideas at all?

As I said, this is the initial phase of my grant proposal (as I just thought of this skeleton of an idea today). Anything you say that will help me focus will be appreciated.

Bob White,

In that case I owe you an appology. It does add an ironical twist that I became guilty of the act that I charged you with. I am sorry.

Evian is naive spelled backwards! That's great! The things that I never noticed in life.

Anyway Bob White, once again you misrepresent my post in order to prove your point. I don't appreciate that. As I stated in my post, I don't agree with "begging" others for donations. I think it's wrong to have a boy go door-to-door and ask for money. That's why I'm also reluctant to endorse fundraising in general. It's very similar except that the buyer has less of an option on what to give to scouting because the product has a fixed price. The troop also only receives a portion of the money because it naturally has to cover expenses.

If a parent doesn't want to impose on family and friends to buy popcorn, then I see nothing wrong with that parent simply making a donation themselves. Anyway, I already wrote all this and it doesn't need repeating.

About the popcorn, I also think it's a cheap product to peddle. I appreciate that many people like it and the container. I'm in no position to tell them what to think. My personal opinion is that a better product could represent scouting than popcorn. Especially since popcorn is as notorious as french (sorry, "Freedom") fries as being a product that's overpriced considering how cheap it is.

By the way, Thin Mints are some of the greatest cookies ever.

To also tag on to the last few posts:

Popularity in youth is a really funny thing. I see some groups picking the loudest and most popular boy to receive the joke. This kind of calling attention to a person can be seen as a badge of honor in some groups. I'm not saying this is right, but different groups act in different ways.

Back before hazing became much of an issue, our troop had scouts who lost an item do a song and dance in front of everyone. I agree with why this form of display was banned, but it was always enjoyable at the time. Boys would jump up to receive this sort of "embarrassment" probably because when the adults lost something, they were always enthused to sing and dance. Naturally this would not be forced on any boy who did not want to perform.

In any case, I have strayed. So instead of wasting more of your reading time, I will leave it at that.

Bob White,

I agree with you. Anything dealing with money is a slippery slope. However, I slightly cringe at the mention of the word, "Fundraiser." I completely understand why some parents would rather not have their sons ask people to buy from them. Money is an amazing way to ruin friendships. It's a difficult position because many of the purchases made during fundraisers are out of guilt and the purchased good is not wanted by the buyer. Naturally there are exceptions as I love Girl Scout cookies. But I don't believe that BSA stands for "Boys Sell Anything."

I think it's perfectly understandable for a parent to donate money to their troop instead of pushing their son to sell products. I also understand why some parents may not want their son to be out selling.

I'm not saying that boys should go out "begging" as you termed it. I just want people to understand that there are reasons against selling as a fundraiser.

About the issue of donations vs selling.

kwc57,

I understand the motives some parents have for simply writing a check instead of pushing their son to sell. While fundraising is a great responsibility for a youth and an excellent lesson, the product can often be looked at critically.

I know many parents who would feel bad to have their son peddling some low-grade product to their friends and neighbors. These people are then almost obligated to buy. Our troop sold Christmas wreaths for years, but the quality was so low and the price was so expensive that some parents finally just donated to the troop instead of forcing friends to pay.

Another great thing about donations is that all the money can then go directly to the troop instead of having to pay some price for the product.

Unfortunately, fundraisers often involve the cheapest product at the highest price. Then the sale is made through guilt and friendship. If family friends and relatives want to support scouting, a donation is often more helpful (and more tax deductable).

I've read a few posts with some movie recommendations. People have recommended showing movies like "Remember the Titans" during JLTs and occasionally troop meetings. I would like to add "White Squall" to the list of great scouting movies.

I must warn you that it is rated PG-13 for sexual references.

It is a great movie where a group of boys become men through the process of teamwork and community building. It is so easy to see the parallels between the boys in the movie and the troops that we lead. It's a very enjoyable and powerful movie.

If you're uncomfortable showing a PG-13 film to scouts (I don't know if there are rules related to that) then at least watch it for yourself.

Perhaps this is a topic better posted in the "Issues and Politics" section of this forum. If you scroll down through those topics, I'm sure you'll find plenty of opinions that can help with your paper.

Just to put in my two cents, I hate to turn away any boy with a good heart and lots of enthusiasm. Scouting is a wonderful program that I feel should be open to any boy who wants to participate and won't cause trouble. But I also respect BSA's ability to place certain membership restrictions even if I don't agree with them. Here are some interesting sub-topics/ hypotheticals that may be useful to you:

Churches can restrict membership by religion so why can't scouts?

Where do agnostics fit in?

What if a boy, raised without faith, is searching for a religion and is therefore open to God. However, if he is genuinely searching, he won't immediately accept God. Is he forbidden from scouts during this transitional period?

Can't private organizations impose moral requirements for membership? (ie. criminal records make some people ineligible for certain groups)

Would Boy Scouts better serve their function if they could provide a strong moral and faith-filled foundation for boys who may not have such models?

These are just some parts of the huge debate that you inquired about. I kind of mixed the pros and cons together. Good luck.