TundraHawk

Thanks, Semper. The packs I have been involved with unfortunately look like the "100 scouts and 10 volunteers" packs that you mentioned but on a smaller scale. Both my husband and I thought that required volunteer support of some sort was not unreasonable at all -- it's good to know that we aren't alone in our thinking!

This is definitely a topic that will be addressed at all of our recruiting nights. I think this type of involvement from the parents will be so beneficial for several reasons:

- I'm hoping that if the parents are involved, they will develop more of a sense of ownership of the pack. This, in turn, will help foster a deeper interest to see the pack succeed.

- The scouts love to see their parents helping out. I know my son loves it when I can come to the school and volunteer in his class.

- More ideas on how we can run things, activities/service projects the pack can get involved in, etc.

- Spreading the workload will make everyone more productive.

How would your feel if your pack required parental involvement, where at least one parent per scout would be required to help out in some way with the pack? I have read where some packs do this and think it may be the way to go with the new pack we are starting at my son's school.

I'm not saying that they have to assume any type of leadership role, especially for those new to scouting. There are so many ways one can get involved -- DL, ADL, committee member, helping with various activities (B&G, PWD, etc), even volunteering to help with their sons' den during den meetings.

As of right now we have three volunteers - myself, my husband, and one other mom (not even enough to charter). I've seen how packs are run when only a handful of folks are made to do every job; the quality of the pack suffers, and those running the pack are overwhelmed and burned out.

Do you see folks running for the door in search of another pack if this is required of them, or do you think most parents would be willing to help? Unfortunately, many parents that I have met think that scouting is a great babysitting tool and have no desire to get involved.

(Of course I know all the parents will need to be trained in their positions and coached along the way.)

Bryan, this was the main topic of one of our recent roundtables; folks from different troops brought in either their by-laws, troop policies, or parent handbooks.

I have a copy of one parent handbook that I thought would be particularly helpful to a new parent. It included items like:

Committee Chairman's statement (welcome letter)

General info on troop (meeting day/time/location, summary on how a troop runs, names of volunteers)

Parent expectations

Uniform (parts of, placement of patches)

Overview of Scout Oath, Law, Slogan, Motto

Financial info (dues, fundraisers, camp costs)

I'm working on the same thing, only at the cub level. I'm thinking back to when my son first joined - what questions I had, etc. - and am applying it to our parent handbook. Hope that helps a bit.(This message has been edited by TundraHawk)

The first pack we were with had a pretty limited budget so they charged the parents an extra $10 if their son wanted to participate in the Academic & Sports program. They also limited how many a scout could earn in a year (I believe it was 10/yr).

I'm trying to figure out how to deal with belt loops with our new pack. I've seen some boys rack up a number of belt loops and pins in a single year -- I know two Wolves that have more than 20 belt loops and probably 1/2 dozen or so pins. The cost adds up very quickly, especially for a pack with limited funds.

I don't know if I have many suggestions, but I can sympathize with you. I once had a parent on our pack committee make the comment that being a den leader is "nothing" and it takes little to no time - I only wish I could see what type of den leaders those folks would make! Like you, both my husband and I expand on the achievements, and it takes A LOT of work. Not surprisingly, my husband's Wolf den was the strongest den in the pack.

I know you said that you have asked for help in the past, but maybe you can get the parents together (as they are picking up their boys from one of the meetings) and tell them that you cannot continue (and hence, the den cannot continue) unless you get some help. Sometimes in a "do or die" situation, one or two parents will volunteer.

Don't feel like you are letting down the boys. Scouting should be a FAMILY oriented activity, and those parents are letting down their boys by not helping the den/pack. Also don't put pressure on yourself to continue onto next year. Your family must come first.

johndaigler -- I've always been told/have read that Tigers can begin working on their Bobcat as soon as they earn their Tiger rank. Actually, the Tiger handbook even mentions that the boys should "keep your Bobcat badge in a safe place. After you graduate to a Wolf den, you will wear the badge on your blue Cub Scout uniform shirt." (from the Tiger handbook printed prior to the Tiger uniform changes) I wonder if this has changed??

foto - Most likely we'll have more new scouts than existing scouts after our recruitment so if we work on advacements we will definitely have to be creative and present the information in a new way to keep boredom at bay. I certainly agree that our new scouts will have plenty of time to finish up their rank through the summer. I think a lot will depend on the parents - if they seem gung-ho about the program there should be no problems, but many new scout parents I've dealt with in the past expect everything to be done, achievement-wise, at den meetings.

Y'all have given me some great food for thought -- thank you!

Has anyone ever been involved with a pack that utilizes scout accounts? In my son's former pack, they did away with scout accounts because of the problems it created -- I'm not sure if it truly was a hassle or rather just someone unable to keep up with the work (before we arrived the old CM ran the pack like a one man show so many things suffered).

In a related thread, OneHour described how only a handful of scouts in his troop do the majority of the fundraising; that has been my experience with cubs. In addition, NONE of the money raised by these boys actually went towards summer camp, etc. It simply ended up in our pack's general fund.

**double posted by accident - my apologies!**

(This message has been edited by TundraHawk)

Thank you so much for all the wonderful ideas!! I've already talked to one parent, and it looks like we've decided to do a garage sale this spring. This will be held about two months after our first recruitment. I don't want to have to ask the new scout parents to help with a fundraiser that involves selling anything, especially so soon after they have had to pay for registration, uniforms, etc.

Of course we will need to conduct other fundraisers in the future so I have written all the ideas down!

Thanks for the reminder about the paperwork - that is one thing I am a definite stickler about (drives some folks nuts...LOL). I have never had to pay much attention to the financial side of a pack until now, and I'm doing my homework!

I really appreciate the input...thank you!

acco40 -- If all goes well, it looks like we'll be doing a recruitment in March and again in May. I hate that they will run so close together, but hopefully in March we will be able to pick up a few boys to start up the pack and the May recruitment will help bring in a few more, along with our new crop of Tigers.

I have yet to deal with having a scout earn rank over the summer so this is new territory for me! In my limited experience, I've always taken it that the scout must earn it by the end of the school year (May/June) and an extension could be granted on a case by case basis.

johndaigler -- We definitely would not let them have a head start on the new rank, but I thought we could go ahead with the Bobcat (even with the Tigers...very soon to be Wolves) since it is required for everyone. Then once summer roles around, they would be given their new rank handbooks and neckerchiefs, and they'd be free to work on their new rank.

I certainly don't want to rush these new scouts to earn their rank (too much, too soon) but at the same time I want to encourage any little go-getters. If we have a new scout that is really interested in earning the rank, we could allow him to use the summer.

We are planning a recruitment night in mid-March for our new pack. We will have several current scouts but most, of course, will be brand new to scouting. As of right now the scouts who will transfer in are one Tiger and two Wolves (all have already earned their rank).

How would y'all proceed for the next few months until they all crossover (Tiger to Wolf, etc.) on June? Since the new scouts won't have time to earn their rank, I was thinking of working on a non-rank related award (our council has a area-specific heritage award, etc.), plus working on their Bobcat. In packs that I have been involved with in the past, our Tigers earn their rank by Blue & Gold so they are working on the Bobcat from Feb-May --- would y'all see this as a problem (starting out with the Bobcat for the brand new Tigers)?

Any thoughts on how you would do things differently?

Lynn, I was in charge of our fall school recruitment night this past year. We had two "brag" tables. I made two displays using those trifold poster boards (that kids typically use for science projects). One display was educational in nature...had pictures of the different ranks, the Cub Scout motto, Cub Scout promise, etc. On that table I also had the handbooks for each rank, the mini Boy's Life mags, etc. The other display was pictures of all the boys having FUN...day camp (bbguns and archery), our crossover campout, and the raingutter regatta. We had a few boys bring in their past regatta boats and PWD cars. The prospective scouts LOVED this table.

When your DE does the your Feb recruiting, make sure he also recruits some more volunteers for your pack!

I need ideas, ideas, and more ideas for fundraising for a new pack! Besides popcorn sales and carwashes, I've never really been involved in fundraising for any activity (be it scouts, little league, etc.).

What have been y'all found to be your most successful fundraisers?

Rixkidz, does your unit have a commissioner? Maybe you can get everyone together w/the commissioner and try to hash things out. At least he/she would be a neutral presence that might be able to lend a hand or give you some insight.

I can sympathize with your situation. My husband and I recently left a pack, somewhat due to all the internal fighting among the volunteers.

Anarchist, it looks like you have a great system going! Our old CM had a similar system but on a much smaller scale. They were the clear bait/craft boxes with the dividers. I "inherited" the system when I became in charge of advancements. Although we had a few arrow points, rank patches, etc... most of the items were belt loops and service stars.

How are you able to keep extra rank, activity badges, etc. on hand? Our council is incredibly strict on how we purchase these (cannot buy unless they are given the advancement report)?

OT -- I really appreciate your insight. As of right now, my son isn't in a pack. Thankfully he has only been out of the loop meeting-wise for a few weeks and is completely up to speed on his rank, etc. (he's actually farther ahead than most boys in his den) I have the contact information for several packs but don't really know much about any of them. We planned to begin visiting a few of them when our DE approached me about the formation of a new pack.

When he first mentioned this I was hesitant and thought my husband would go crazy at the mere mention of the idea. I was really surprised when my husband was very excited about the prospect. With all the challenges/frustrations we experienced with "the old address" (love that term!), I think we have a much better understanding of how NOT to run a pack. LOL

Much of our frustration came from under enthusiastic volunteers - those just doing the bare minimum to get by. I think if we get a core group of enthusiastic and hardworking folks (which won't be easy), many of the other things will fall into place.

I have a meeting planned with our DE to discuss this more in-depth. I have a number of questions that I plan to ask, and they will really be the determining factor on whether I take this on. If I don't feel comfortable doing it, I will most definitely look at joining a pack and helping out.

BTW, best of luck with the Cubmaster position!!

Eamonn -- you brought up a very important point and a big obstacle that we will have to address. The majority of our school is made up of military kids (and, hence, transient families). That was one of the biggest downfalls from our last pack - they never planned ahead for folks to take over when the other volunteers had to move.

Another concern I have is the formation of bad blood between our old group and this new pack. Inevitably some of the scouts from the other group may come to our pack (since they go to that school, etc.). A little "healthy" competition is good to an extent, but I don't want to do anything that will create a downright nasty situation.

Hi Semper,

Thank you for all your input! I'll go point by point from your post and add what I have in regards so far:

1. Hard work is something I'm not afraid of and know that is what it'll take to get the pack off to a strong start. I've heard from several folks that it takes a good two years or so to really establish a pack.

2. I talked to my husband this evening, and he is completely supportive. Although he will be leaving in the upcoming months, he is more than willing to help out until then. I also talked to another mom (who has two scouts), and she is very eager to see a pack at our school. She is full of ideas on ways to get the boys more involved in the community, etc. We also know of one or two others that would be interested. Of course we'll need more, but this is a start! One of our biggest assets is the principal of the school. She is a huge advocate of scouting and has wanted a program at the school for quite some time.

3. One of the first questions I posed to our DE was in regards to the CO. He seems very gung-ho to find us a good CO...possibly the Elk's Club or the VFW. Our DE is good in letting the CO know their responsibilities, etc.

4. Training is HUGE for me. In our last pack, my husband and I were the only fully trained volunteers. District training doesn't happen all that often, but I know we'd be able to have someone come out and train us specifically. Getting everyone together to get their views on the program is so important, and I think it would help foster more of an "ownership" of the pack by the parents and other volunteers that are involved.

5. Money, I have to admit, is one of my biggest concerns. I've seen how quickly pack funds can dwindle away. According to our council, our school would be part of the Scoutreach program, and I was told we may be able to get a bit of help because of that. I don't know much about the program -- that is something I'm going to educate myself on next!

6. Thankfully, I have a good relationship with the folks at our council, and they know that I will come to them with any questions I may have. They've joked about getting me a desk in the office. LOL

7. The calendar is something I've been toying with for several weeks (ideas I was working with for our last pack). There is so much that our boys can do in our area that our last pack didn't take advantage of -- most (if not all) of them being free.

8. Ah, yes, the pack meeting! I can't wait until my son (and the other scouts) experience a FUN pack meeting. I'll probably be asking for y'alls advice when it comes to a SUPERfun meeting. I have a few ideas but would love something that would just knock the socks off the boys.

9. Semper, I could open a library with all my scouting literature. *grin* Cub Leader Books (2 copies), How To Book (2 versions), Academic & Sports Program, BSA Family Program, G2SS, Sparklers, Ceremonies, handbooks for all ranks, etc -- I try to read all the information I can get my hands on.

10. Fun??? You mean scouting is supposed to be fun?? (kidding, of course!!) I've seen too many boys drop out of scouting for that very reason...it just wasn't fun. No matter what we are doing, we've got to bring fun into the mix. )

Thanks again!

Does anyone have any success stories to share in regards to starting a new pack? Our DE recently approached me about starting a pack at my son's school. Since our family's departure from our last pack (where both my husband and I were very active volunteers), my husband and I have vaguely kicked around the idea but never took it too seriously until my talk with our DE. While I feel I am motivated enough for the challenge, after such a bad experience with our last pack I have to admit I'm a bit hesitant to take on the endeavor.

What were the biggest obstacles you had to overcome? Any hints/tips/lessons learned that you could share with me?

Your post was such a welcome sight to me, Tim, when I checked the board earlier. Late last night I decided to resign from the pack. This morning I went to council and asked for my name be taken off the pack contact list (I'm the one folks call if they are interested in joining/transferring to our pack). I wanted to talk to the DE, but he wasn't available.

(forgot to mention earlier...right now we don't have a UC. I was told that our DC was to attend our meeting last night. He never showed up. Our DE has gotten such conflicting stories on our pack, honestly, I'm to the point where I don't think it would help to talk to him)

I've been busy packing up all the pack supplies I have...membership forms, awards, rosters, etc. It's amazing how much stuff you can accumulate in just a few months.

Right now my husband is planning on staying until the end of the school year. He has an awesome bunch of scouts (Wolves), and we both worry what will happen if he leaves. Our son is in this den so he is - at least - getting a good quality den program.

It's so hard because I have become extremely passionate about scouts, and the thought of removing myself from it just tears my heart out. Both my husband and I have seen what a change scouts has made on the boys in his den in just the past four months. All I've thought about these past few weeks are ways to turn the pack around and how to give this gift to ALL the boys in our pack.

Rix, you're right. Actually the charter is really the least of our problems. Our volunteers are more hung up on having a certain crossover ceremony than trying to find the essential leadership that we are lacking. Another month has gone by, and we've yet to find a Cubmaster (it was shrugged off again by the committee).

I'm completely and utterly at a loss now. Am I asking too much of this pack?

Cardinal, thanks for your post.

Our den leaders are indeed part of our pack committee, along with our CC, treasurer, secretary, and a few other positions (I'm Advancements/Memberships).

Unfortunately, when I say our leaders don't think there is a problem, I'm speaking of ALL our leadership...CC on down. They see the need for more volunteers, but that is it. For instance, they think a CM is not needed. I just can't comprehend this.

We basically have a program where our dens are running on their own, with a committee structure in the background. Our pack program is incredibly weak...boring meetings, no community involvement, and our special events (regatta, etc.) are so unorganized they are complete chaos.

I completely agree with you that I can't appoint myself to a position. Not only would it be difficult to be considered a legitimate leader, but I'm not comfortable with taking that route at all.

Right before our CC left, he did appoint me (via a personal email) to be the CM (supposedly with full backing of the committee), but he never officially appointed me in front of the group...and the members I've talked to know nothing about this appointment. Even if I did take on CM, our CC has made the job for me even harder - if not impossible - by constantly telling folks that the CM job is "no big deal" and that the CM "only runs the pack meeting."

In regards to recruiting volunteers...this is something I approached the CC about. He thought it would be a good idea and since he was going to be gone, he asked me to head up the project.

Tonight we have a committee meeting, and I'm going to bring many of these issues to the table. If I'm met with indifference or blank stares that will tell me quite a bit in regards to my family's future with the pack.

Tim -- Thanks for the idea. I'm not exactly a whiz at desktop publishing, but I could probably crank something out if no one else is to be found. I have something (sort of) similar but on a MUCH larger scale. For our school recruiting night I used a trifold poster board and displayed a number of photos that I took of our scouts during our crossover and at summer camp (the regatta pics and closeups of our boys learning archery/bb shooting really got a lot of attention from potential new scouts!)

Eamonn - you're exactly right about safety in numbers. One is very unlikely to have parents jumping up and down begging to be volunteers during his/her groupwide plea for help. One reason I want to have a group talk with our parents is just to present them with the reality of the situation, which I think they know nothing about --- we are in great need of volunteers and, come autumn, the need will be even greater (when our dads deploy overseas). I want to express to them that our unit can also serve as a great support tool for not only the boys but the families during this difficult time.

My husband and I are going to make a concerted effort to recruit most of our help one on one. I'd much rather be in the position of the committee recruiting folks than having to take anyone who is willing to help.

jen - thanks for the suggestions. Our local VFW and American Legion have both offered to charter us. Currently our pack is speaking with a club that is on our base. As of right now, we are able to keep our meeting place, even though it was originally granted to us by our old CO (it's a fairly complicated issue). I've been keeping up with arichardson71's post, and it certainly has been helpful. Thanks!

cheffy, I don't know much about the Jehovah Witness faith, but I did find the following on belief.net, which gives a synopsis of most faiths around the world:

"Service in the armed forces or any form of allegiance to government is prohibited"

Hope that helps a bit.

My son was a Tiger last year, and he had a blast working on his PWD car. I'd really encourage your pack to include the Tiger den.

With our Tigers last year, we had them raid their matchbox car collection and find one that they would like to model their PWD car after. With a bit of help, they drew the design on the block of wood, and then we had a parent cut them out. My husband and I left the sanding and decorating to our son. The axels and wheels were a combined project with father and son.

It was a great experience for our family. Y'all could also have a raingutter regatta for the entire pack later on in the year.

Do y'all find that your COs take an active role with your pack/troop? What type of things do they do? I know what their "official" responsibilities are per the Cub Scout Leader Book, but I'd like to know y'alls experiences and what your expectations are for your CO.

Our former CO (we are between COs right now) wasn't involved with our pack, except for providing us with a place to meet and approving adult applications. Come to think of it, I've never even met our COR.

(edited to add...and that should have read "Charter Orgs" not "CharterED Orgs")

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