torribug

Gardyloo,

We just kind of hashed something like this in the "Changing Hearts and Minds" thread. You might want to read all of that thread, because the guys (gals, too, maybe?) gave me a bunch of GREAT information.

BUG

I got mine in elementary, although nobody in the Troop knows me as such. Growing up in the Arizona desert, there were a lot of nasty, crunchy little creatures, from scorpions to cockroaches (the kind that are the size of a Cessna) to black widows. Yup, I was afraid of them all - even those that weren't so nasty (no way to tell unless I got close enough, right?) I guess I borrowed the motto, "kill them all, let God sort them out!" I was frequenly seen/heard screaming "Bug!" and promptly stomping on them.

- Bug

Became a leader when oldest son was a Bear, because nobody else would step up. Agreed to "share" leadership with two other adults, who then backed out over the course of the year. Went on to be Webelos leader, then on Troop Committee, then son lost interest. Was asked to be an Explorer Post Advisor (back in 95 - now I guess the program is called Venturing). Did that for a year. Youngest son wanted to join cubs, agreed to be Ass't den leader, but really was co-leader (other leader provided location and administrivia, I provided program). Thought for sure I would be "retiring" after son crossed over, until TCC learned that my career training would lead me to be a great TCS. Guess I'm going on 12 years now.

BUG

It seems to be my fellow committee members that are worried about advancement happening too quickly. I've never heard our very-well-trained SM say anything negative about any of the boys advancing quickly. I have heard a few ASMs mention that they don't think a boy should advance too quickly; some scouts have experienced hold-ups with getting certain requirements signed off, or even getting opportunities to learn/perform requirements. This was by ASMs in charge of New Scout patrols, not the SM.

Eamonn, thanks for the suggestions on ways to work with this. That is exactly why I posted to this forum: to get other's POV on how to tactfully handle the situation. I think the route I'm going to take is to read through all of the manuals. Then I'll suggest to the TCC that she stress the importance of us all being trained. At the next committee meeting where one of the members clucks about advancement happening too quickly, I'll ask, with a wide-eyed, innocent look, "Wow! When was the last time a scout appealed a BOR decision to not pass based on age(maturity, grade level, etc)?" Some of the parents DO know about the appeal process. If I still meet resistance, then it's time to secure an invitation to the District Commish to visit our troop. This can be done casually - he used to be our next-door-neigbor, and oldest son's den leader.

FS - I have, over the past year, considered most of these potential reasons as being part of the reluctance to "allow" a boy to advance. I especially like the one about 6 ranks in 7 years. Nobody has ever given me that reason directly, but I do know that one of the ASMs said it to my son's patrol. I would counter that Scouts is not public school, and to please show me where in the literature that information resides.

There's another reason that I have thought may be an issue, based on where some of these folks' sons are in rank. They don't want a younger kid outranking their kid. After all, how does that make them look as a parent? It's a vicious cycle, because it's "always been done that way." Their sons were held back, now they have to keep others down so their sons don't get surpassed.

As far as Eagle being the end of the path, I have to wonder why they would worry about that? Is there not Venturing and Sea Scouts? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster?

Thx, BUG

I agree that slowly is the way to go, and maybe I haven't been in the troop long enough to be accepted (not quite two years as a parent, and a year and a half on committee, present every meeting, doing BORs almost every meeting). And you're right, Buffalo, I haven't been able to get the background info on why some folks think they should hold boys back for the sake of holding them back. Guess that's my frustration - there doesn't seem to BE a reason for it.

As I originally said, one of the best things about this troop is that I trust the leadership, and that means a lot to me, so I do pick my battles. As a matter of fact, I haven't waged a battle yet. Guess that's why I originally posted - I don't WANT a battle, just some advice on how I can help facilitate change in a nonconfrontational manner. Maybe that isn't possible for a few more years, so I can either accept the status quo or find another troop.

Unfortunately, this doesn't help some of the more motivated boys who may be held back just because they aren't the age that some of the leaders think they should be to achieve a certain rank. And for the record, we aren't talking about 12- or even 13-year-old Eagles. I agree that trail to Eagle is an adventure, not a race - but there are a few boys for whom scouting is their passion (attend every meeting, campout, and summer camp), and advancement comes naturally.

Cheers, The Bug

I am going to go to the SM fundamentals training. We also have a lot of dads of new scouts that will likely be attending as well. The deviance from BSA policy truly isn't a matter of untrained leadership - it's a matter of questioning the status quo.

Now I have another question - if I am not able to attend the training that my district offers because I have other committments on the same weekend, will other districts allow me to attend their training (assuming it's on a different weekend)?

There were a few things I left out of last posting because it was already so long.

1. I don't have printed resources. I went to the scoutstuff website to see what I could find, and didn't see what I "think" I need, until OGE cited "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures." I will order that through the supply division today.

2. Training has been a bit of a problem. The two times that I have known about it being offered in our district, I had to attend drill for the Guard. In case I ever want to run for president, I don't ever want it to be an issue that I missed a couple of drill sessions ;-). I am going to start attending roundtables, then I may be able to learn of more training opportunities.

3. When I questioned the powers that be, I did it in an "I'm new here, can you tell me why this isn't shown in the scout manual?" kind of way. That's when I got the answer, "that's just the way we do things." Got this answer from several people - some were polite about it, but some seemed threatened that someone would challenge the status quo.

Until I can arrange for training, are there any other printed materials that I might want to look at?

I've been a lurker here for about six months, so I have learned a great deal from you all - big Thanks, by the way.

Having been a scouter for 11 years, most recently as troop committe secretary for 1 1/2 years, I know that we shouldn't add to nor take away from the requirements. Unfortunately, the "seasoned" leadership in my son's troop don't subscribe to that belief. They have imposed additional requirements, in part I think, because they don't think that it's "right" for a 14 year-old to reach Eagle. As a matter of fact, my son has been in the troop for almost 2 years, and they say he is moving "too fast" because he just achieved Star rank. FY/FC? Forget it!

After a scout has all of his requirements signed off for ranks up to First Class, we have a peer review process, in which the Instructors test the scout seeking rank advancement before they can go on to the SM conference. I have learned from this forum that this is not BSA Policy. The Scoutmaster (or ASM, if it is for TF through FC) then retests the scout during the SM conference (again, not BSA policy).

When I question said leadership about these policies, the response I get is, "That's just the way we do things." Truthfully, I like and (more importantly) TRUST the leadership in this troop, so I haven't rocked the boat. It was only about two months ago that we changed the format of the BOR so that it isn't yet ANOTHER testing session, so I think that we are making progress. However, I am concerned that my son and two other boys who are now at Star or First class, and who are eager to earn the next rank, will be held back because of their age or because the committee feels that it's okay to "fail" a boy in the BOR.

I have not taken any formal training at the Boy Scout level (I did for cubs and for Explorers), so I feel like I don't have a leg to stand on. Even if I do take training, it might appear that I am taking the training just to prove the seasoned folks wrong. I'm also the youngest adult volunteer in the troop, and don't want to appear smarmy.

Has anyone here been in this situation, and how have you resolved the problems without turning everyone against you? I really do want this to be a quality program - I can see my son being in this troop for many years to come.

Thx, The Bug