Slouchhat

Eagledad wrote: "I get the feeling you don't really care about the success or failure of our program, you're just offended by Amercian values and you think yours are superior."

Your program (the scouting) has nothing to do with your "American values". If your American values include discrimination against minorities or those who are not following your mainstream, then yes, I find those values offensive, not valuable and regard mine as superior. Why don't you simply admit that it is wrong to throw somebody out just because his sexual orientation is different from yours? What are you afraid of? Being accidentally touched by such a person? That you catch a gay virus by shaking his hand?

GoldWinger wrote (twice): "Men don't like showering with men who like showering with men."

Cool. Don't you have a better explanation of your set of values? I mean something substantial and not some movie catchphrase or something of that kind. Explain your universal set of values and let us know why not having homosexuals in BSA has a positive impact on the program.

Great.

So: what exactly are the American values regarding homosexuals?

What exactly are the American values regarding female scout leaders?

I'm glad to see that behind all this there is a cut-and-dry codex universally accepted throughout the States.

Eagledad wrote: "I guess, but after continuing success for 100 years, what do you consider failure?"

What's your point?

We're just ten years short of 100, doing things very differently and scouting is very successful in this country without kicking people out because of their sexual orientation, etc.

Excluding somebody can only be the last step if everything else which has been tried before, has failed.

So what has been done to integrate homosexuals in BSA before it was decided to exclude them?

What is the exact negative effect homosexuals are having on the BSA and their program?

But please, no boulevard journalism a la "My son is going to turn gay if there are homosexuals in BSA"

You're missing the point.

BSA ain't a scholarship for which you need to apply, it is like a club you can join, pay your dues, etc.

You're talking about different things here.

By the way, the BSA website doesn't even say what type of organisation BSA is. In fact, it doesn't say a lot about many important things.

Easy enough: BSA is a monoculture.

Monocultures sooner or later will not bear fruit anymore.

BSA might be the biggest organisation of its kind in the US today, but the way it is run, it will, in the long shot, fail.

You may not notice it, you may even condone or support the obvious bigotry, but it is not what the old man had in mind and what he wrote about.

BSA's big advantage is its quasi-monopoly in the USA. This has nothing to do with the quality of the program or anything. This has something to do with the fact that a large crowd attracts more people than a small crowd.

That's it. That's all it is.

GW, I feel genuinely sorry for you.

You are hanging on to BSA's bigotry like the KKK to their racism.

Aquila wrote: "That homosexuality is immoral is not "I don't like your pants." It's a fundamentally held belief."

Do you really believe this?

I'd like to hear on what kind of scientific research this belief is founded upon.

And you consider that honest?

Finding something out the hard way after possibly spending mnoney on dues, uniforms and kit?

People, Ive given this a good thought and as far as I am concerned, an organisation that freely discriminates against people who dont fit their bill and throws out members of long meritious service who speak up against this practice is bigoted and does not deserve governmental benefits nor the support of the membership.

It is beyond my understanding that you dont rebel against this system and avoid conflict by comforting yourselves with well, I dont agree 100%, but most of it works for me.

This is the same as saying I dont give a flying poop.

Wheres your self-respect, people? Got any of it left? Then drop out today or band together and tell them up there that youre no longer willing to support their discriminatory dictatorship. After all, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

But then, maybe some people just don't care enough.

best regards,

Volker

Maybe you want to re-read this:

"Before you compare the size of the BSA to other scouting organisations: we are smart enough not to call them about everything everytime. We know the words self-discipline and standard operating procedure, too."

"Slouchhat, BSA is indeed a representation of its membership. It follows a presbyterian style of democracy.

Individual units are represented by unit scouters on District committees.

Districts are represented by unit scouters on Council committees. Council committees are represented by unit scouters at Area committees.

Area committees are represented by unit scouters at Regional committees

Regional committees are represented by unit scouters at National committees."

Which means that there are six rungs on the ladder before a decision is being reached?

Let's be honest, this sounds like the game "silent mail" to me. I whisper something in the ear of the guy to my left, he whispers what he thinks he's understood into the ear of the guy to his left...you catch my drift.

How long does it take before a decision is reached, before a unit is being heard? Can the various lower echelon guys reject the idea before it gets up to National level?

If I have to say something, I either pick up the phone or send an email to my State representative or my National rep. I could even call them on their cell phone if it is urgent.

Before you compare the size of the BSA to other scouting organisations: we are smart enough not to call them about everything everytime. We know the words self-discipline and standard operating procedure, too.

Hi Packsaddle,

thanks for the thumbs-up.

I'm not saying that I know everything or have the solution to everything. To an outsider who is not part of BSA, maybe some flaws appear a bit more obvious than if you've been scouting like Christ was a camp-cook.

I've lived in the States long enough to know a bit about the American way of life, but my views are (hopefully) those of a German.

I know well that some things I said in this thread may appear very provocative (the broad brush), but certain comments were just a bit too much to leave unchallenged.

best regards,

Volker

...and be a taxpayer there.

Moving to Monaco will help you somewhat, but not fully.

@Goldwinger:

Dressing up as old Adolf or promoting the return of the Nazi party is a Federal offence here.

It has nothing to do with some club bylaws or regulations. It is, simply spoken, forbidden by law.

@CA Scouter:

Of course, Im using a wide brush here. Most BSA members probably know that somethings not right but they are not effected by that and for them most, if not all, is well. They probably comfort themselves with theres always something or I cant change it anyway.

@eolesen:

Most people probably dont find the actual scouting program bad at all. However, we should try to separate the actual scouting part from politics and doctrines. It seems like the BSA is a dictatorship. You sign on and follow the lead or you leave the organisation. There doesnt seem to be any alternative. The almighty entity BSA makes a decision (based on whatever knowledge or information) and the membership nods and says yes.

And you are absolutely sure that this lemming-like approach is right? Are these the values which you want your kids to learn? Do it like the ostrich and stick your head into the sand.

So you're basically telling me that the majority of BSA members either doesn't care what their organisation does or thinks that discrimination is a good thing.

I'm impressed.

Let me quote from the BSA website directly:

FRIENDLY

A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

Could it be that many BSA members seem not to be much interested in the Scout law and being a brother to all and respecting other ideas and customs?

Did I overlook the paragraph about discrimination?

You probably will be able to confirm it from some governmental website, too, unless you prefer to believe that your own government is forging statistics just because you don't want to believe...cool.

But nevertheless, let's get on with the BSA and their right to discriminate.

I know that throughout the US a lot of people still never leave their State boundaries...

You KNOW that do you?

Well, I don't mean those who cross from New Jersey into New York twice per day. Do they still issue the Federal almanach or whatever your statistical yearbook is called? It's all in there.

Well, I still find it somewhat hard to believe that a private organisation can discriminate as much as it wants. If that's what they supposedly can, they could also exclude Blacks, Hispanics, Indians, etc. That, I find highly strange and, forgive me, not very American.

I know that throughout the US a lot of people still never leave their State boundaries, but it should be public knowledge that sexual orientation has nothing to do if you have ever distantly met a homosexual or not and I highly doubt that BSA would be swamped with these if they could join.

How would you know if a guy's straight or gay unless he tells you? We all ashould know by now that the stereotype homosexual with pink spandex t-shirt and womanish type of voice is not representative for this sexual orientation. One would probably not even recognize a homosexual if one bumps into one.

If that is really what the BSA is about, it is, as far as I am concerned, a very strange organisation.

Who runs it and who elects these people? What is their religion? Where are they from?

Is the membership so simple-minded that it believes in a love it or leave it-attitude?

They came for the gays, but I didn't speak up as I am not gay. They came for the Blacks, but I didn't speak up as I am not Black. They came for the atheists, but I didn't speak up as I am not an atheist. When they came for me there was nobody left to speak up for me...

America ain't what it used to be.

best regards,

Volker

That's interesting.

Well, I'm not that well schooled in US National law, but I would be surprised if this kind of practice was legal.

If this is what they do, why don't people leave the organisation en masse whatever their sexual orientation is? I always thought that the USA with their history would not tolerate this kind of discriminatory behaviour? Are these the values people want their children to imbibe?

Well, maybe I've just misunderstood all this.

best regards,

Volker

@Leroy:

The leading organisations simply put their bylaws and regulations as .pdf on their main website so everybody who is interested can download them and read them page by page to find out what one is entering into. Nobody keeps a separate legal site somewhere which, but please correct me if I have overlooked the obvious link, needs to be separately searched.

@Lisabob:

Actually, I was looking for the BSA's membership requirements. On their site is a lot of stuff, but not very well organized. I don't think anybody over here would trust a governmentally co-chartered youth organisation. Since the founders of the United States wanted their citizens to be very wary of the government, I find it hard to believe how such a monopolistic organisation can survive that long.

I never had much use for this "love it or leave it" type of gunboat diplomacy.

best regards,

Volker

Well, what membership requirements DO they have?

I've looked at www.scouting.org which seems to the the BSA's website.

Where exactly can membership requirements be found if not there?

best regards,

Volker

It would be a question of evaluating what exactly I don't agree with and make up my mind if this is a major issue which would prohibit me from joining (or continuing my membership) or a minor issue I could live with.

Nothing in life is perfect, there's always something we don't like or don't agree with.

best regards,

Volker

Since everybody involved as shown signs of at least some goodwill, WOSM would be well advised to get all NSOs to a meeting at short notice to open negotiations.

After all, the "dissident" nations might have a valid point and that needs to be heard.

If we are thinking about WOSM as a democratic institution, the NOSs have a right to decide which course they want WOSM to set.

best regards,

Volker

I am wondering what my own country thinks about all this.

On the same day the BSA sent their letter, the following countries sent WOSM a supporting letter:

Bangladesh, Greece, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, Austria, Pakistan,

the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and the UK.

Altogether, the "dissidents" represent something about 70% of the membership.

Hmmm, sounds like something bis is going on.

If WOSM should fold and cease to exist, what would be the consequences.

best regards,

Volker

Hello,

I would think that as long as nobody really asks for this, it's not voluntarily given.

best regards,

Volker

Hello,

I'm a bit disappointed that the newsletter doesn't exactly say what the problems are.

Too bad that this seems to be compartmented for the higher echelons.

best regards,

Volker