SC_Pack428

This school was founded in 1969. And yes, it was originally founded in reaction to intergration. However, things have evolved a long way

in the past 35 years. The school has a mix of black, hispanic, white and Asian.

However, because it is private, we don't have to put up with a lot of the government "bullship".

Every class stands and says the pledge every morning.

Every morning a devotion is given by a student over the intercom.

We still have a public prayer before football games.

And the best part, if you don't belive in God or the Flag, you don't have to send your kids to this school. There is a public school less than three miles down the road. Everyone who submits an app

agrees to these things up front.

That is why I believe scouts would flourish in this setting.

They both share a lot of the same values.

I would not say that we have a "bad" relationship with the church. In fact, I am convinced that if the other charter does not "come thru", the church will gladly "work something out" with the Pack.

It is just a lot easier when you have a member of the Pack at the Church on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening to "stay in touch".

Again, these are good people and I don't harbor any "hard feelings".

Also, as I said in my original post, the Pack has tripled in size.

The church has a very small "social hall". That means that we

often have to meet in the sanctuary for programs. Lots of antique and delicate stuff in there. I hold my breath every time the boys go in.

Accidents happen. Accidents happen more often with 30 kids in a room.

Bottom line. It is getting a little cozy. We adapt, but size is becoming a problem.

As for the "closed pack", the school is private. People pay to send their kids. It is not real fancy, but everything there is paid for with private money. They basically believe that people that have "put something into the school" are much more likely to take care of it.

So, groups that are not associated with the school are not allowed to use the school's resources. That is there policy.

A closed pack would meet this requirement.

The school is in a central location. The church is not.

It is highly likely that the Pack would grow due to the new location.

Anyway, I'm still curious about people's "pros" and "cons" on closed Packs.

Thanks

Hello,

I have a few questions about "moving a pack".

Wait. Calm Down.

1. I understand that the Pack is "owned" by the

Charter.

2. I understand that the Charter can close a Pack.

3. I understand that that another Charter can open a Pack.

Here is the deal. I live in a small town in rural South Carolina.

About four years ago, my son brought a note from school

annoucing the formation of a Cub Scout Pack. He really wanted

to join and I was willing to "give it a try".

I did not know the man (current Cub Master) who was

organizing this Pack. He had only lived in our community a few

years. Right or wrong, most people in "small town SC" are wary

of outsiders. I learned that this man had gone to the school and

several of the large churches in the area trying to find a charter.

Because he was "an outsider" they had all turned him down.

He finally convinced the church he attended to be a charter.

This church is very small with less than 50 members and is

located "in the middle of no where". However, they are

REALLY GOOD PEOPLE.

Anyway, the Pack was created. The Pack began with a Tiger

den and a Wolf den (8 scouts total). Four years later, we

have over 30 scouts and run Tiger, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos.

The pack is doing well. It is now known in the community

and well respected.

I am currently a Webelos leader and most likely the

Cub Master for next year. I am having a great time and we

have a great bunch of boys.

Now the problem.

The current Cub Master will be leaving us in May 2005.

He is the only member of the entire pack that has any

ties to the church. Again, the church is small. Most of

the members are older and don't have "scout age" kids.

They have always expected the Cub Master to "take

responsibility" for the facility. Now that he is leaving,

the church is a little wary of "giving the key" to non-church

members.

Well, I was talking to the DE about this problem. He told me

something I did not know. He said that a Pack could be chartered

as a "closed pack'. He said that under this arrangement only kids

that "are associated with the charter" could be members of the pack.

For instance, if a private school chartered a closed pack, then only

students that attend the school could be in the pack. This was one concern the school had about being a pack CO.

Does anyone out there have a closed pack?

How has it worked out?

Anyway, cut to the chase.

All of the following has been "laid out" via conversations.

Nothing has been signed. The council has not been involved

The school (that all our boys attend) has agreed (in principal) to

charter a "closed pack". (Summer 2005)

The church has agreed to dissolve the current pack. (same timeframe).

All Pack members have agreed (in principal) to transfer.

Are there any "magic rules" about re-using pack numbers ?

If the church dissolves Pack 428, then is there any rule that the school can not charter a NEW Pack 428?

We have so much stuff that says Pack 428, I would hate to "start over".

Anyone done this before?

Thanks

If twocubdad is correct (and I am sure he is) about the Webelos diamond badge going away after current supplies are exhausted, then the BSA is going to be forced to change this policy soon. They can no longer have an option to wear a badge that no longer exist.

I appreciate all of the comments and info that has been provided

on this subject. It has been good.

I believe I know what my Pack's policy will be:

My Bears (at September promotion ceremony) will receive their Bear

badge, Webelos hat and Webelos scarf (but retain the blue shirt). They will wear this combination (assuming it still fits) until they earn the Webelos badge. At that time we will ("require"/"strongly suggest") that the boy start wearing the Tan shirt. We will ONLY give the Oval patch.

We will keep the blue belt since loops will not fit the brown one.

This will give the boys a few months to show off their "bear stuff".

(We always have a council campout in October, so they will get

that chance to "show off").

Also, even if the boy decides not to continue to BSA, the parents

will get at least 1.5 years out of the tan shirt.

I still welcome any comments on this subject. Also, if anyone

hears about changes in this badge/uniform policy, please let

me kow asap.

Thanks

Molscouter,

I agree that second year Webelos would probally not care about

the patches. They are working on their AOL and thinking about

Boy Scouts.

My concern is the first year Webelos.

Right, wrong or otherwise: We usually have a "promotion"

ceremony for the scouts in late August or early September.

We make a big deal out of it, invite half the county and have

food. A real community event in a town of 2500.

SO, the Tigers get their Tiger badge and blue uniform.

(most get their bobcat then as well)

The Wolves get their wolf badge and Bear hat/scarf.

The Bears get their Bear badge and Webelos hat/scarf.

This means that we don't hand out badge ranks until this

ceremony. (I know some do it different)

Well, September 2003 we had our first ever "Bears becoming Webelos". We quickly realized that this "end of year" thing would not work for

Webelos. But that was no big deal since these Webelos had not

earned Tiger. Most of them earned the Webelos badge by Christmas. They simply put it in the empty slot and moved on.

September 2004 I will have a bunch of boys getting Bear badges

and bear arrow points. They will get all this stuff sewn on their

uniform. Then, most likely, within 2-3 months have to rip it all

off in order to apply the Webelo badge.

Since no one has had to deal with this problem before, I think

we will all get "push back" from the parents.

I agree that most of the boys will clamor for the tan uniform

by 5th grade. Most of the parents will find this to be "cool" since

it looks like their kid is going to "stick with it" into BSA.

However, I think many of the kids are going to want that

4th grade "strut around" "look at all the ribbons on my chest"

period. I simply hate to deprive them of that.

Again, I don't think I am going to be alone in this concern.

I think as the current class of Bears moves forward, this is

going to an issue in many Packs.

I am focused on the program.

However, the way I see it, the program puts a BIG focus on awards.

Let's review:

Rank badges

Gold arrow points

Silver arrow points

Belt slides

Progress toward rank beads.

Sport/academic pins

Webelos pins

Plus a whole lot more...

In addition, every scout event seems to involve a patch.

No, I do not think the program is "all about the patches".

However, I do think that a big part of the program (like

any other) is recognition of accomplishment.

The boy that:

"scouts for food",

"gathers clothes for the homeless",

"works the scout requirements"

etc...

should be given awards. He should "stand out" compared to

the "scout" that pays the fee, buys the uniform and never

shows up for meetings.

I encourage my scouts to be PROUD of what they have done.

example: Some Bears have made the perfect toolbox while others

barely had something that resembled a toolbox. However, they

all did it. They should be proud.

I think they should get awards and be allowed to display

them as long as they are part of the cub program.

ScoutNut

Wait a minute:

First I do not argue with your statement of the policy. I think I said basically the same thing in my last post.

I simply said that it should be reviewed and midofied.

However, I disagree with your second point:

I have two 10 year old boys.

They have both just earned their Webelos badge.

Boy "a" has been with the program since 1st grade.

He has earned all ranks and lots of arrows.

Boy "b" has been with the program since 2nd grade.

He has earned all ranks (except Tiger) and lots of arrows.

Both boys get their Webelos.

The next meeting, boy "a" shows up with one lone patch in

a large field of blue.

Boy "b" shows up with 4 patches and lots arrow points.

Now do you really think that boy "a" (who has been with

the program a year longer) is not going to feel "cheated"?

Do you really think that 10 year old boys will not scream

about the "unfairness" of this situation?

Thank you Molscouter. You read my post correctly.

As for others:

I am not saying that I am going to tell my boys to put the badge on top of the others. It is "just a thought". No different from the

thought of "wearing the badge in a plastic hanger".

Also, I understand that not all boys are going to earn all badges.

My point was: There will always be boys that will have a spot on their uniform for the Webelos badge (along with other ranks) and

other boys that will not.

To me, the policy is sort of backwards:

The guide says: Webelos wear current badge of rank only.

However, if they have not earned the Tiger, they have the option

of putting the Webelos badge in the empty spot of the "diamond".

I read this to say:

A scout that missed his Tiger year can "show off"

all his badges of rank during Webelos.

However, a scout that has been with the program since first grade must remove all badges of rank except Webelos. Anyone meeting this scout has no idea how long he has been with the program or what he has accomplished.

Finally, it is based on this policy, that I believe that BSA considers the Webelos badge "superior". If not, then why require

that the boy must remove the other ranks in order to display it.

My son is very proud of his Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf and arrow points.

Unless something tragic happens, he will soon be proud to wear

the Bear. I think it is wrong that he should be forced to

remove these patches in order to move on to the next level.

BSA should revise this policy and come up with a better solution.

There was one other point I meant to bring out. This problem

will not fade with time.

My current Wolf class is composed of 5 boys that joined in first

grade (earned Tiger) and 6 boys that joined as second graders.

Assuming they all hang around until Webelo time, I will have

boys in the same class with this problem.

I don't think boys joining in second grade (or later) is uncommon.

SO, there will always be some boys with a spot available and others

that "don't have room".

Just a thought:

How about the diamond shaped Webelo badge attached in the center

of the other 4 badges (on top of part of each of them). It would

kind of signify the Webelo badge as "over" or "superior" to the

other achievments.

Hello all,

We are a small pack that is only 3 years old.

We began this pack with a group 1st graders (Tigers) and

a few 2nd graders (Wolves).

My initial Wolves are now 4th graders and will soon receive

their Webelo badges. They are all still wearing blue uniforms

and no one seems ready to "upgrade" to the tan. Since these

boys were never Tigers, they have an empty spot on their blue

uniforms to place the diamond shaped Webelo badge.

The uniform guide says this is OK.

My concern comes about a 1 year from now. My first class of Tigers will be ready for Webelo badges. They will not have an empty spot

on their uniform because it is filled by the Tiger badge.

Again, I do not expect many of them to upgrade uniforms.

The uniform guide implies that they must remove their Tiger, Bobcat,

Wolf, and Bear badges and only wear the Webelo.

This means I will have some scouts wearing a shirt "showing off"

everything they have earned and others (who have actually earned more) only showing their current badge. I can already hear the complaints.

Has anyone else dealt with this problem?

Hello,

Pack 428 (less than 2 years old) is about to have its first pinewood derby. The pack has a total of 20 scouts.

7 boys are working toward their Tiger Badge.

8 boys have their Tiger and Bobcat. They are working toward their Wolf badge.

5 boys have their Bobcat and Wolf. They are working toward their Bear badge.

The local council published the 2003 rules for the pinewood derby. One rule says:

"Each pack can send one winner from each rank (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelo I, and Webelo II) to the BSA expo in April...."

My question.

Does this mean attained rank or working toward rank?

If it means attained rank, then my 7 Tigers can not participate. My 8 Bobcats would be considered Tigers.

My 5 Wolves would be the Wolf divison.

I would have 2 pack winners.

If "working toward rank" then I would have 3 winners.

1 Tiger. 1 Wolf. 1 Bear. (this is how I read it)

I have sent E-mail and left messages at the local council. Either they do not care or do not know, because I have yet to get an answer.

I welcome opinions.

First of all, I handle the "real" problems in my life just fine, thank you.

Secondly, I think it is wonderful that you have been involved in scouts for 30 years. However, just because no one has complained about the size of the flag in the last thirty years does not make it any less of a problem to some people.

Look at camping gear. Camping gear from 30 years ago is a joke compared with what is available today. The products adjusted to the consumer.

If we did everything the same as "30 years ago" there would still be a lot of kids not allowed to be in BSA.

Change is not always a bad thing!!

Finally, to say that a flag could not be made in "every possible size" is plain silly. True, it could not be made to every length/width combination. However, visit any flag store and you will see that there are about 5 standard flag sizes. The BSA could easily offer flags in a few of these standard sizes. Think about it. The BSA does not expect every scout to wear the same size uniform. They offer a range of sizes and options. We don't expect a Tiger Cub to put on the uniform of a Webelo and "grow into it"

Yes, I have other options. The point is that I should have options that allow me to adjust the product to the pack and not the pack to the product.

You may think I am some "lone wolf" on this topic. However, when I presented this problem at a local flag store, I learned something interesting. I WAS NOT THE FIRST. The clerk explained to me that numerous packs had made this request over the years.

The most common solution:

Buy an inexpensive, stock navy/gold flag and write the pack info on it with a laundry marker. Boy, I'll bet that makes for some attractive displays.

The bottom line is still Monopoly and GREED.

Please see replies to this topic under the "cub scout" forum. This topic was put under this forum by mistake.

Thank you

I must say that I find it a little insulting that the BSA does not even offer a smaller version of the flag.

Every day we see examples of our armed forces proudly carrying smaller versions of the USA flag. Yet, the BSA has some "problem" with 7 year old scouts carrying less that a 3 x 5 flag.

Let's face it. BSA does not have a person sitting in some room sewing these flags by hand. The job of creating these flags is subcontracted to some flag company. That same flag company could easily make other size flags.

The bottom line is GREED. BSA has a monopoly on this merchandise. The bigger the flag, the bigger the "mark up".

I should not have to "adjust" the pack to the flag. The flag should adjust to the pack. We have kids in BSA today in wheelchairs or that have other disabilities. We make all sorts of changes to buildings or events to allow them to participate. I think that is great. However, we can't make a smaller flag so maybe one of them can carry it.

I repeat, if the United States Armed forces has no problem with smaller versions of the MOST sacred flag, then the BSA is "way out there" thinking that smaller versions of its flag are somehow disrespectful.

I did check with the scout shop. They said it is 3x5 or nothing. The cost is awful.

I went to a few local flag/banner shops. I can get a simple gold/blue flag (2 x 3) for about $12. I'm sure I can find iron-on or sew-on lettering for a resonable price. (unlike the $2.20 per letter price the scout shop wants).

The problem would be the wolf symbol in the center of the flag. I have no idea how I would duplicate that symbol.

Anyone have any ideas?

I have never seen a patch or decal that duplicates the red/black wolf in the center of the pack flag.

I posted this in "new to scouting" by mistake. I meant for it to go here (cub scouts)

I have a very small pack in South Carolina. We have a Pack flag. It came from the scout shop. It is very large. It cost a small fortune.

We use it in pack events and treat it with great respect.

However, when we take this group of young boys on a campout or other outdoor event, I hesitate to take this large flag.

It is difficult for the boys to handle for long periods of time and I am worried it will end up in a mud puddle.

I want a smaller version (like 2 x 3) of the flag to take and display at these events. However, the scout shop offers nothing less than a 3x5.

Has anyone else dealt with this problem?

Thanks.

I have a very small pack in South Carolina. We have a Pack flag. It came from the scout shop. It is very large. It cost a small fortune.

We use it in pack events and treat it with great respect.

However, when we take this group of young boys on a campout or other outdoor event, I hesitate to take this large flag.

It is difficult for the boys to handle for long periods of time and I am worried it will end up in a mud puddle.

I want a smaller version (like 2 x 3) of the flag to take and display at these events. However, the scout shop offers nothing less than a 3x5.

Has anyone else dealt with this problem?

Thanks.

Thank you all for your advice and comments.

I believe I am ready to proceed with this task.

Thanks again.

I'm sure I can get the church id. We are sponsered by a small Baptist church. Although I am not a member of this particular church, I am on the finance committee of another Baptist church in the area. I know they have a tax id.

It just concerned me that people at two different banks believed that I should be using the BSA number. The banks did not say that they would not open the account, they simply questioned it.

My problem is that our local council has one phone number. The same person answers that phone every day. This is the person that is telling me to use the church id.

I was hoping to hear this info from an independent source.

I have contacted several other troops in the area, but they have all existed for a long time. The pack accounts were already in place when the current leadership took over.

Nobody seems to really know.

I'm not trying to make this harder than it should be, but I want to do it right.

Anyway, thanks for your replies.

Hi,

I am an adult volunteer in a small pack in SC. We were formed in November 2001, so I guess we are about one year old. We currently

have 18 scouts total. (tiger cubs, bobcats, wolves).

Anyway, when we got together last year (9 scouts) we had missed the popcorn sales. We really did not have any funds other than parent donations. We lived "hand to mouth".

This year, our small band really got out there and sold that popcorn.

We are going to have a "small fortune" to manage. I have been ask to set up a pack bank account.

I have been to several banks. The accounts are about the same. The question concerns the Tax id number. No bank will set up an account without a tax id number.

The bank(s) say I need the tax id number of the BSA. The local council

says I should use the tax id number of the church that sponsors the pack.

Have any of you been here before?

I would appreciate any advice of this matter or ideas about pack bank accounts in general.

Thanks