ScoutOne

From a general view the point of a wilderness area is to explore on your own. This means minimizing your impact on the wilderness and others in the area. If you want to travel as a large group, that is fine, but a wilderness area is probably the wrong place.

There have been problems with unprepared units in the Boundary Waters that go on their own through an outfitter. (Note, there are also a lot of well prepared units.) They are simply not prepared as they are not educated in the purpose of a wilderness area or the regulations that must be followed. Keep in mind it's not really about the regulations -- it is more about being respectful of others where you travel.

As mentioned before, the Boundary Waters allows groups of 9 and 4 watercraft. You also cannot travel with another group. The ticket for either is quite expensive and it is very unlikely you will not be caught. This should be practiced everywhere, for example, only one group should be on a portage at a time. If another group is on a portage you should wait until they push off. In Quetico Provincial Park you can have a group up to 9 and travel with another group. This is not recommended and the problem is finding campsites on the same lake that can accommodate two large groups.

I understand the plan to replace the membership and financial systems is in progress. But be patient as it can take a long time to successfully upgrade a large system. Also, as far as what you have heard what is coming, remember this is from council staff seeing presentations on possibilities and not what is being done immediately.

I've had crews for many years consisting of all ages of Scouts that have gone into the BWCA and Quetico very safely without any issues. High Adventure is great for all scouts, younger or older. What I have found with younger scouts it that their high adventure experience motivates them to stay in scouting longer than their peers who have not.

Your crew will need to adapt based on the abilities of everyone in the crew. Also, it is often not the younger scout the crew will have to adapt for. This may mean someone taking a lighter pack (not all the packs weight 85 pounds, the food pack does) or taking a pack instead of canoe if they do not have good balance. If you have a physically weaker crew you will want to choose a route that is not as strenuous -- shorter and less portages. It is both a learning opportunity about the ability of the crew and an opportunity for people to step up to help others.

As for 'setting an age requirement', Northern Tier has already set the requirements to participate. They have done a good job at this for the last 90 years. Its time to stop adding more requirements that meet what you prefer. I have no concerns with those who take the initiative to sign-up first that both meet Northern Tiers requirements and understand what the trip involves.

Basementdweller, that is correct.

This coming weekend is the Canoecopia expo in Madison, Wisconsin. This event features many outdoor vendors, outfitters, and presentations. Northern Tier which will be in attendance with a booth to allow you to learn more about the program or ask questions.

The best part of the expo are the three days of presentation sessions on a wide range of topics from skills to different areas of the country. Northern Tier Committee member Chuck Rose will be presenting twice: Kayak Camping - For the Canoeist (Fri 7:30pm-8:20pm) and Sea Kayaking with Boy Scouts (Fri 7:30pm-8:20pm).

The cost for attending all three days is $25 for an adult. It is free for ages 17 and under. You can find out more at http://www.canoecopia.com

For alumni and friend of Northern Tier: The Charles L. Sommers Alumni Association in-conjunction with the Philmont Staff Association will be holding a reunion dinner on Saturday at 6:30 PM. Information can be found at http://bit.ly/zH7squ

The requirement is "13 years of age by December 31st of the year they are attending."

I've also asked about the age requirement as I was confused. The clarification I received reflected the more specific description (above) that is printed on Page 2 of Northern Tier's Expedition & Route Planning book.

http://www.ntier.org/filestore/NorthernTier/pdf/ERPG.pdf

Like nldscout mentioned, I would highly recommend the basic economy paddles sold by Carlisle (~$20). These paddles are very durable and light enough for basic trip paddling. Remember to order an appropriate paddle length, generally you will want paddles that reach conformable in the water, not toe-to-chin. So shorter than you would think, we use a lot of 48-52" paddles.

For a Type III PFD I would recommend something from Stearns or Extrasport. Stearn's Comfort Series Life Vest ($25-35) are popular with organizations. The design is durable, long-lasting, easy to put on, and the upper part is mesh allowing easier movement. It comes sizes S to 3XL. A few places may have the Adult Classic Series Life Vest for slightly less but it does not have the upper mesh (it does go town to XS). Some S/XS designs may still be too large for some Scouts, if you have smaller scouts under 90lbs you will need a youth size (such as the Youth Sportsman's Life Vest ~$20). I would suggest avoiding universal size PFDs as these will be way too larger for many Scouts.

Please do not order Type II PFD. So many lives have been lost from people not wearing or not wearing correctly. Untold numbers of lives have been spared through the development of the Type III PFDs.

Note, the USCG does not require Type IV PFD approved throwable flotation devices or signalling device. Your state may have different requirements, but I have not found this to be common.(This message has been edited by ScoutMKE)

Hello,

The Triple Crown of High Adventure award (TCA) is not being discontinued or immediately changing. The purpose of the award is to promote all National High Adventure programs to our youth members. Not to simply purvey an award patch. We also want to have an award for youth that is reasonably within reach to earn. While the Charles L. Sommers Alumni Association (SAA) will likely issue a new award for those who have been to all four national high adventure programs, it will not be used to change or shift away from the purpose of the TCA.

However, the fact there will be a fourth high adventure base is not really new since there have been several National High Adventure programs that have opened and closed that qualify for the award (Wisconsin National High Adventure, Maine National High Adventure, and Land Between the Lakes National Outdoor Center).

In the future when the new national high adventure base opens (expected around 2015) the Board of Directors of the SAA will likely choose to recognize High Adventure programs at The Summit as an option for the award. This only applies to High Adventure programs, Jamboree experiences would not qualify.

You can find out more at http://www.holry.org/triplecrownaward.php#Summit

Thank you!

As mentioned, AHG has been very comprehensively discussed already. This is not very unique, the BSA has memorandums of mutual support with many organizations (American Canoe Association, Knights of Columbus, etc).

The difference is that AHG has effectively used the agreement for public relations purposes and there is nothing wrong with that.

@le Voyageur - The Summit property is heavily focused on economic development of the area. As a result believe the current plan is to outsource much of the high adventure program similar to Sea Base, where a commercial outfitter will be used. The upfront cost to independently develop a rafting program is too high for a program that has no footing yet.

Philmont consists of many land acquisitions made over time. I am sure each transaction had different conditions. The land donated by Phillips is deeded to the National Council but had conditions such remaining an operating ranch.

Bechtel Summit will be the seventh National High Adventure program. There are National programs that have closed due to declining participation (Maine, Wisconsin, and Between the Lakes). While there have been closed programs, there is no chance of the current programs being discontinued. All three programs are very, very busy as it is.

In the past to allow increased participation the existing programs have been expanded with satellite programs (Bahamas, Atikokan, Bissett, Okpik, Kanik). All these programs have (or had) the opportunity to allow increased participation. I suspect these programs may be at some risk when the new high adventure base opens.

Like Pack212Scouter mentioned, the purpose of transferring mineral rights is to avoid having to grant access to the property for mineral exploration. This is an issue as you must the mineral rights owner on the property and can result in safety issues.

The focus is on the 2013 Jamboree. Other programs at the facility such as the High Adventure program are secondary. This post was made on the Facebook page by the administrator: "until after the 2013 National Jamboree, so 2014 at the earliest". It also does not make sense to open another High Adventure program right now with the economy and declining registration at Philmont. Last year Philmont had a almost 50% cancellation rate and went through the entire wait list.

If your unit is looking to try a National High Adventure other than Philmont, don't wait to find out when the Summit will open. Check out Sea Base or Northern Tier -- there are a lot of incredible smaller programs most never get to experience like Bahamas, Atikokan, and Bissett.

National is not paying the salaries of council employees.

The financial system is still original (terminal, 'green screen'). Before the upgrades in the late 90's each council ran this application on their own server (mini). As part of the upgrade this was centralized. This made a lot of sense (not having a server in each council for financials) and did not change functionality.

To print paychecks you need a thermal laser printer. If I remember correctly, there is also an option to have National (actually a vendor) print and mail the paychecks. The funds in both places are still issued by your council.

The Northern Tier Trading Post is clearing its inventory of "BSA 100" patches. (These are the patches you see folks trying to sell for $20 each on eBay...)

The cost is $6.95 for large "Back Patches" and $1.75 for regular "Non-restricted" patches.

Link to the online store: http://bit.ly/agstiC

Re: Insect bombs. As packsaddle mentioned, these are ineffective and highly advised against as it apparently only exacerbates the problem.

Building a cabinet with heaters is excessive, particularly as many outdoor materials cannot handle very well the 2 hours (minimum) at 120f to kill bugs.

Bed bugs are becoming a bigger issue when traveling also. The best option is to not spread what you traveled with until it is inspected. If you find a bug it can be killed (crushed, etc). When returning have clothes in plastic bags and place directly in the laundry (highest temperature for washing and drying).

For camps, like hotels, an infestation of bed bugs (or any bug) can be avoided if they have procedures to monitor for it.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/housingandclothing/M1196.html

Scoutfish,

The only manufacture producing aluminum canoes is Marathon Boat Group under the Grumman brand. After ownership changes the canoes were produced under the Marathon brand. The canoes are now produced under 'Grumman' again after it was licensed from the original owner of the boat unit, Northrop Grumman.

It is not very hard to find a used Grumman or Marathon canoe. You may also be able to find Alumacraft canoes used, these are no longer made as of a few years ago. Your best bet for a new Grumman is a local independent business. Most businesses now carry the cheap recreational plastic canoes as these cost far less. These weight about the same but are not as durable, stable, or repairable.

If you are looking for a fiberglass (Tuf-weave Flex-core or Royalex) canoe I would look at Wenonah Canoes, Bell Canoes, or Old Town. Old Town you will find everywhere as it is owned by the Johnson Outdoor Group. I would highly recommend Wenonah Canoes as their products are by far the highest quality. The owner, Mike, got his start canoeing at Charles L. Sommers Canoe base and is an Eagle Scout.

AlamanceScouter:

I encourage you focus on actively delivering the program and finding new age appropriate activities. It's also important parents be involved, but just on a temporary basis. When parents are not involved either as a leader or just encouraging participation we find the youth will eventually become uninvolved.

Speaking of high adventure, one of the National high adventure programs called Northern Tier offers a great OKPIK program for 1st and 2nd year Webelos: http://bit.ly/bhTLeh

Note how everyone to post in this thread (except for Eagle92) has only posted once and registered the day they posted. Obviously, this is the business Sail School Bahamas SPAMMING the forums. In addition, I've discovered they have been spamming Facebook pages and groups.

Sail School Bahamas's Web site claims you can earn the Triple Crown of High Adventure award by using their services. This DOES NOT quality for the Triple Crown Award. You may only earn it by participating in a high adventure program operated by the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America. The programs are: Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, and Philmont.

REI Mens size small may be sufficient for some. Otherwise, Under Armour (100% Polyester) comes in youth sizes and is probably the most popular as it used in sports.

shortridge, thank you for the correction. You are correct if this means it is now part of the program.

Eagle92, exactly except Wood Badge is not a venturing program activity so 'standard' YP would be followed. In doubt, you could just register them as an adult Boy Scout leader.(This message has been edited by ScoutMKE)

-(This message has been edited by ScoutMKE)

Note, there are no "YP issues" with this change.(This message has been edited by ScoutMKE)

We have taken our troop to Glacier National Park three times and will again next August.

I would highly recommend backpacking in the adjacent Bob Marshall Wilderness. Last I checked no permits are required. The area is absolutely beautiful and you'll see far fewer people due to the remoteness.

Lodging should be reserved well in advance. Be aware West and East Glacier models can be expensive. Both park and private camping is available. I think the Rising Sun campground is the only NPS campsite with showers. If you are looking for cabin/showers the last day there is a KOA in the area and the Glacier Institute (a non-profit) that used to have availability at their Big Creek Outdoor Education Center.

If you have family members and younger scouts who want to come along you may want to consider reserving a group campsite for the duration and do day trips. Those going backpacking can camp at the campground site the first/last night (space dependent) or adjacent site.

Since you are traveling from the west coast you will get in at a reasonable time to tent camp the first night. This can be a cost savings. However, for those coming from the east coast the train can get in ridiculously late so you should make arrangements accordingly. Such as cabins or someone who arrived a day early to check-in to the campground. Coordinating pick-up of rental vehicles is also a challenge this late and you may need to arrange a shuttle.

For larger groups transportation will be a logistical challenge and expensive. Depending on the number of groups you'll need to manage expectations and be flexible so everyone can be dropped off and picked up from the trailheads.

Be prepared for fires! In the past we have had to rapidly adjust our routes due to areas being closed due to fires. Watch the news and arrive with enough maps to adjust routes. Obviously there is a chance you will have a permit for an area that closes due to a fire.

Randy,

If you are participating in 'the' Okpik at Northern Tier you should be fine with a three season sleeping bag. They have supplemental liners and sleeping bags you can place your sleeping bag within.

The available supplemental equipment depends on the program. I would recommend inquiring before spending a lot of money on a new sleeping bag, boots, or gloves, etc.