Scouterclaude

I am working with a new Pack that has 4 Tigers, 2 Bears and 1 WEBLOS. The Cubmaster wants the pack to succeed and so does the Charter Organization. The boys come from an economically disadvantaged area (no uniforms) but seem to enjoy what has been done so far. They do not have dens set up they just meet as one group every week on Sunday afternoon (working on their Bob Cat rank right now). Beside an interested Charter Organization, committed Cub master and his wife they dont have any other actual leaders working with the scouts. The Cub Master has taken all the on-line training he can so that isnt a problem. Members of the church are listed on the committee and as Committee Chair and the Cub Masters wife is listed as the den leader so they have enough for a valid charter. I am looking for ideas which I can use to get this pack off on the right foot. Though I am not new to Commissioners work and the Cub Scouting program I really dont know where to start to help. I have tried to have a parent/committee meeting but have had little success in that area. We have tried to recruit more scouts through the school with some interest but no follow through. Any ideas you have would be valuable at this time, I am willing to try anything to get them off on the right foot.

To answer a few questions that have been raised, yes it is the Commissioner Staff that is working on this problem. Also we don't have a course at our University of Scouting that pertains to running a good Pack Meeting. What we are finding out is that the Cub Masters and others within the Pack leadership only know how the Pack Meeting have been run in the past and continue making the same mistakes year after year. Most will not go to any supplemental training to learn how to do it better because they don't know it can be better. What we have in mind is making a DVD of a "staged" Pack Meeting, showing how to keep the audience engaged in the meeting and keep things moving at a good pace with everyone having fun. Also we want to show how to have memorable award ceremonies for the scouts, not the usual here is your patch now go sit down. We are making baby steps but hope to have great results soon. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

our district's staff. We have noticed that a lot of unit (Cub) don't know how to do a good Pack Meeting which then leads to es not showing up and eventual the units dropping scouts. We are trying to come up with solutions to what seems to be a common problem.

I am looking for help in developing a program for cub scout units in trouble. What do you consider an important part of a "good" Pack meeting? How do you keep the pack meetings moving along and keep everyone involved? We are looking to set up a Pilot Training Program for running an effective Pack Meeting and I want to use all the ideas I can.

Also check out our website (http://www.danbeard.org/) for more info on the camps and program. Have fun!!!

just sit back and enjoy. Cub world is a great camp and the camp staff is just great. Camp is pretty open as far as the layout. Just above Cub World is Upper Craig and Friedlander which is a full service Boy Scout Summer Camp. You might want to stop by Loveland Castle which is close by on you way home. It is a castle built from stone that was removed from the Little Miami River which flow by the castle. On Saturdays they have tours thru the castle. You could also stop by our Scout Service Center, you have to see it to believe it, just great. Welcome to Cincinnati, we are glad to have you.

As with anything you have been involved with for many years there will be embarrassing moment and events, sowhat was your most embarrassing thing in scouting.

Mine was back in the mid 90s, I was scoutmaster of a troop of about 40 scouts. I had very good help and support from my five assistant scoutmasters, one of which really liked to work with the new scouts to earn their Toten Chip. On this particular campout we had probably six or seven scout that had just crossed over from cubs and he wanted to get them off on the right foot. He set up an axe yard and then instructed the scouts to find some wood so they could learn to use a bow saw. At the same camp there was a Cub Scout Pack having a family/Pack picnic, they were going to be joined by a scout troop later in the day for their crossing over ceremony. The scouts found some really nice, straight, timber about 4 in diameter and about twelve feet long. They worked all afternoon cutting up the wood and had made a great stack of fire wood. While all of this was going on I was making my rounds observing all the scouts in my troop and their activities, some were fishing, some were hiking, some stayed in camp to cook, or just hang out and of course the group working hard on their Toten Chip. I felt content knowing all was well in Camelot. About 6:00 in the evening the scoutmaster of the other troop walked up to us (myself and my assistants) and asked if they could have back the poles for their Monkey bridge back so they could do their crossing over ceremony, I looked at the pile of firewood as all my assistants kind of wandered away. Realizing what had happened I got all the scouts together(both troops) and instructed them to head out into the woods and without cutting down trees find anything we could use to make them a bridge. Two hours later between the two troops working together there was a wonderful bridge, they did a cross over ceremony and then joined us for a great campfire. What started out to be an embarrassing situation turned into a learning opportunity, great fellowship, and a story worth telling over and over.

The problem today is that so many "trained" leaders have to move away or leave the unit each year. No sooner do you get everyone trained, one leaves. It is an ongoing battle that the new requirements should hopefully resolve. We now insist that all den leaders have at least one "trained" assistant in each den not just parents helping out. It makes the parents take ownership of the dens and pack, not just sit back and help from the sidelines.

Thank you Eagle92 the for forms. I also remembered it is in the back of the Cub Scout Leaders Book. The way I read the 100% requirement is that you have to "3. Attain 100% trained leadership within the pack for the committee chairman, Cubmaster and all the den leaders." It doesn't say that the duration is two years, just that you attain the 100% at some point during your two year tenure. Am I reading it right or am I mistaken in my assumption.

Does anyone know if there is a form (like the Den Leader Award Form) for the Pack Trainer Award? I have looked at National's web site and my local Council's web site to no avail. Help!!!!

The only place I know where names are listed is under the transpotation section where you list who is driving and all the required information on the car and so on. Maybe only 10 scouts were listed on the permit and more showed up making the permit incorrect. I don't know the exact details of the incident. My point has always been insurance companies will try and find a way to deny the claim if the can so make sure all your ducks are in a row. It might also be that the car the scout and parent that were injured wasn't listed on the permit. Don't know.

When I fill out a permit I aways add extra scouts to cover those who decide to go afterall. As far as drivers, we have all new scout parents fill out a form which includes all their cars, driver licence info. and insurance info., which is then included in our master list. I attach the master list to the permit when I turn it in and I also have a copy of that list stamped as received and staple it to the botton half of the permit. Cover all the bases!!!!

My main concern isn't my unit because we do pull a permit but is the misinformation that may be delivered at training. All the information I have seen on BSA insurace states it is a policy thru an insurance company and not directly funded by the BSA. That being said I sure would hate to be the poor individual or CO that thought they were doing right by not filling a permit, have a serious accident and be sued only to find out the insurace company found a loop hole to deny the claim because the GTSS says you have to do so.

Sorry Scoutnut, my last post should have been addressed to AlFansome. I will be the first to admit my screw up many as they are.

Scoutnut, not to argumenative but it is requires,

BSA Rules and Policies:

Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.

If you look at the GTSS Tour Permits and the launguage I quoted is in bold print thus making it a rule and policy.

If in fact it was only a tool to prepair a safe outing then why has National gone to the trouble of putting it in bold print in the GTSS? Words do have meenings and legal interpritations also have an impact on insurance claims. I deal everyday with contracts, and specifications and know quite well the meening of the written word and its impact on litigation. If it is spelled out in the specs it doesn't matter what your interpritation might be. It is what it is. The "but I thought" defence doesn't quite hold water in court, if it says a nut is a nut then guess what it's a nut.

Maybe I need to be more specific, I am referring to a Pack event not a den event. GTSS references a den trip not needing a tour permit, but it's reference to a "Unit" needing one is quite clear. And as far as the need to yell, yelling is only required when you can't make your point on the facts and need to overpower your opponent with noise. I do insist our Pack fill out a Permit for everything but when new leaders go to training and are told it isn't required it makes it very difficult to enforce the policy. "If a trainer said it was ok then it must be".

correct me if I'm wrong but if it is in GTSS then that is the law, correct? It clearly state any trip outside of your home base. I didn't think local councils could alter the GTSS. As far as getting an answer from council good luck with that one, if they don't put it in writing then you can't hold them to it. As far as insurance companies, they look for any excuse to get out of paying.

I am in complete agreement with all of the above, what bothers me is when people who are leading the training sessions tell all the new leaders they don't have to worry about it as lone as they are in council's boundary. If something was to occur these people could be left high and dry.

I have a question on tour permits and cant seem to get a definitive answer. If you refer to the Guide To Safe Scouting it states If a unit plans a trip within 500 miles of the home base, it is important that the unit obtain a local tour permit. and Most short, in-town den trips of a few hours do not require a tour permit; however, it is recommended that dens obtain permission slips from parents.. Please define what Home Base means to you and if in fact any time your Pack goes anywhere other than you current meeting location you in fact need a Tour Permit. The insurance information provided on my Councils web page states A tour permit or a council short-term camping permit is required when units travel overnight or outside their district. The council should establish more specific guidelines setting forth when a local council tour permit is required. But if you ask our Council people you will get several different versions and I can not find it anywhere in writing. It seems that the insurance information is in direct violation of the GTSS. Something as important as Tour Permits should have a more definitive answer than what I am getting. I have always held when in doubt fill it out but at a training I attended this weekend they stated dont worry about tour permits unless you leave your councils area. My wife says I am very anal about crossing the Ts and dotting the Is and I might be but I think this is a very important issue. What are your ideas?

My wife is a Tiger cub den leader (a great one in my opinion) and she printed up each line of the "law of the pack" in a different color and a large font(the first line was red, the next blue and so on). She then cut the lines up into the words and put them all into an envelope. With their parents help them put the sentences back together.

She did this with the promise, and the law and it seemed to help them.

Thanks all for your help, I fowared the info to the leader and hopefully it works out

I have a WEBELOS den leader who signed up for outdoor training next weekend and was just notified that the training has been canceled. They offered to transfer her registration to the following weekends training but she already had plans that she can't get out of. We are in Dan Beard Council and I am looking for Webelos Leaders Outdoor Training in the Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana area for any weekend but the 24th. She is real disappointed because she really wanted to take this training so she can put on an outdoor program for her WEBELOS. HELP!!!!

Gentlemen, and ladies can we please keep this civil? The question I raised was asking for input on the state of training today and in the past, I feel both have positive and negative aspects. I really dont want this to turn into trashing other people or their ideas and opinions. Constructive criticism is appreciated though. Thank you.

In your opinion how has training changed over the last 25 years, and has it been for the better. When I started out 23 years ago as a WEBELOS den leader I went to all the training that was available. Fast Start was put on at a local church or school and after you watched a video you could ask questions. Basic Training was put on twice a year, once in the fall and once in the spring. It wasnt unusual for up to 100 volunteers to show up to be trained on a Saturday. The training lasted 6 to 7 hours with a lunch break in the middle. In the morning we were trained on general rules and policies of scouting, how the cub scout program is suppose to work and so on. In the afternoon we broke into sessions, Den Leaders (Wolf, Bear) Webelos den leaders, Cub Masters and committee. Pretty much like today but the attitude seemed to be different, or maybe it is just my perception. The biggest change I have seen is in supplemental training. When I started out as a WEBELOS leader we had WLOT (Webelos leader outdoor training), it was a weekend long training starting Friday evening going to Sunday morning. We were put into dens and camped as a den. On Friday night we were given materials to make a den flag, we came up with a den yell and cheer, and we had to select a den name. We had to work together as a group. There was staff available to help those who were having difficulties setting up their sites. On Saturday after breakfast we had an opening ceremony and announcements we then went to 3 different stations for training on different parts of the Webelos outdoor program(Geologist, Forester, Outdoorsman, and so on). For the lunch session we had to make a foil dinner with the help of the staff. During lunch we received training on outdoor ceremonies and campfires. After lunch we went to 3 more stations for additional training. After the afternoon sessions we went back to our campsites and prepared dinner and had a short rest period. In the evening we had a group sessions dealing with GTSS rules and regulations for Webelos followed by a campfire program including skits we had prepared during our break periods. Sunday morning we had breakfast followed by church services for those who wanted to attend, and then we came together as a group to receive awards for Best Den Best Cheer and so on along with a bolo which was made especially for WLOT. The training we have today in my council is a 1 overnight stay which also includes BALOO training. Baloo is a 7 to 8 hour program in itself leaving little time left for WEBELOS specific training let alone the group dynamics. Also incorporated into this training are Boy Scout Leaders learning about the Boy Scout outdoor program. We also had a program called TOPS (trained outdoor Program Specialist) which incorporated a lot of Baloo for other than WEBELOS leaders. For Boy Scout Leaders we had T99 Scoutmaster Fundamentals which was training for the Boy Scout program. T99 was 3 Troop meetings and a weekend campout. Wood Badge was a Boy Scouters program with Cub Wood Badge being added later. Today it seems to me we combine a lot of the training, mixing Boy Scouts with Cub Scouts, general ideas with very little specifics, limited (if any) fellowship or group dynamics. This might be just the way things are done in my council and you may have a different experience in yours. By the way my position for the last 2 years has been as a Pack Trainer and we do have 100% of our leaders trained. I try to get the new leaders to training in a group setting(District wide training) within the first month, but have done individual style training for those who couldnt make the group trainings. I would really like to hear everyones opinion on training so I can maybe incorporate your ideas into a training program in my unit. Thanks and sorry this post is so long.

I believe the intent is to have the scouts active all summer in scouting. The way we are going to do it is count the scout active for the month if they attend at least one activity in that month. Attending three activities in one month and not attending any more for the rest of the summer doesn't qualify.