rraffalo

Richard B:

P.S. Not sure where you are in Texas, but my son was a Cub and a Webelo in The Woodlands, TX (near Houston), and we spent quite a bit of time at the summer camps at Camp Strake. Not sure if you are familiar with the area there. But, we moved to Illinois from there 3.5 years ago.

Thanks again for any insight you may be able to provide tomorrow.

Kind Regards~

Richard Bourlon... I don't know that this will get to Council. I've been trying to get the CC to speak with me to discuss potential alternatives, and he will only email me saying, "there is nothing else to discuss". Tonight I learned via email that the COR agrees with him, but I think that is more that they work closely together, rather than having both truly listened to the situation. Nonetheless, they told me I have until five o'clock tomorrow evening to tell them that I will fly back to Chicago (from CT) to join the other leader and 5 scouts, or they would work to replace me.

Just to clarify: My son and I would like to depart from CT and meet the other six people in Fort Lauderdale. I am a male. The other leader in Illinois is a female, and she would be traveling with her two sons and three other scouts, one of which is the CC's son; he is 16 yo. The parents of the other two scouts (one 15 y.o. and one 16 y.o.) have been contacted, the whole situation was explained, and they gave their permission for their sons to travel to Fort Lauderdale with only the one leader, even if that meant we would not officially be on a scout outing for the first leg of the trip.

Hopefully that helps...

I've offered many suggestions, some very similar to Oak Tree's thought right before your earlier post. In addition: direct flights to eliminate the potential for a missed connection; early morning flights to minimize the potential of a long delay; other adults escorting the Illinois crew to the gate at O'hare airport, etc. Basically, they (the CC and COR) have said if my butt is not on that plane, then I'm done. They will not listen to suggestions, and they have refused numerous requests for them to call me on the phone or to meet for a cup of coffee in order to find a solution. My son is a Life Scout with this troop and I have volunteered as a leader for the past two summer camps at Tomahawk in WI. I've driven 4 scouts 6 hours away by myself two summers in a row. No Caravans! I do not see the difference between that and my co-leader sitting on a plane with the 5 other scouts in Illinois. But apparently they do... I'm surprised at their behavior, particularly given my service and the work that my son has put in over the past three years. I am not an ASM, but I do volunteer as a parent and I participate in many of the scouts Boards of Review.

I'm perplexed and tired... time to sign off (1:12am CST). Thanks for listening, and having an interest :-)

I think it should be recognized that I'm not suggesting breaking any rules. Two deep leadership is only spoken of in scout documentation in the context of Youth protection. We have that part covered. It also states that one leader is fine when traveling in a vehicle to a destination. A vehicle is a form of transportation and not limited to a car. A plane certainly qualifies as a vehicle. So, for those that are hung up on the black and white must agree I am correct.

KC9DDI: I'm going to take your advice. If it doesn't work I'll let the CC replace me if he will not get on board, or he has the COR in his hip pocket.

If he and the council want to create a higher standard that does not exist in the rules that may be their right, but then I consider my obligation and responsibility to the crew as satisfied. I think the CC then will need to find us the resources to bridge the gap he has created with his higher standard. These two events do not overlap (family reunion and Sea Base trip), so something should be able to be worked out. If he wants to fly another adult to and from the airports for both the departure and return trip then that would be one way for him to provide the resources. But, I do not feel obligated to cover his higher standard by spending ~$600 of my own cash to fly my son and I back out to Chicago from CT to simply join the group in the O'hare airport so that we can all hold hands while we fly together.

TwoCubDad: I'm surprised you tried to pull the guilt complex on me. I feel that complex will reside with the CC who is raising the standards beyond the policy. Two deep leadership -Yes! But, it allows for one leader in a vehicle when traveling to a destination. And, that goes for cross-country flights in a plane.

Ah! Thanks for your help... and great insights.

I'm still not sure how this will work out, but I'm not flying back to Illinois with my son to satisfy the CC. If he doesn't support us and help keep us from financial hardship, then he can replace me and my son or tell the others that the trip is canceled because of his discomfort with one leader on the plane. That will be his choice.

That is my position on the matter and I'm sticking with it.

Any other scouting leaders that have been in a similar situation as me please post your example to this board now. I think it will be helpful to me when I approach council to show how many other troops have done something similar to what I'm suggesting. It's never easy to try to convince other people when you are on an island of your own. So, ANYONE, EVERYONE please post any examples you have of your troop doing the same thing. Thank you all in advance!!

But you can change that Moose Tracker. Join a different troop, change your Charter Organization, or teach the COR that most of this rhetoric about insurance is a smoke screen for overly conservative people trying to get you to do what they say. "Insurance" has become the bad cop. I'm a conservative, but not to the point of atrophy.

First of all, most families have health and wellness insurance, even if it is Medicaid. If they don't they probably do not have a son in scouting. Second, it is not the COs insurance it is the Boy Scout insurance. Third, the Boy Scout insurance will pay if it is a Boy Scout event (plain and simple). File the claim and you will be covered. I've witnessed it.

Tour Plans are for planning, not locking in insurance. If you follow National's rules you will secure the insurance if something goes wrong. You don't need to have a higher burden as a CO to ensure the insurance covers. Also, you do not have to wear your uniform when you travel to be covered by insurance either. Does he/ she (the COR) know that?

I say, "Educate them, or move on".

Any other people out there that absolutely agree with me on this?

Any one else have actual examples like mine in this thread? If so, please post them here.

Thank You!

Moose Tracker:

I like Beavah's explanation on this... first of all we are all taking early morning, non-stop flights. Early morning flights experience less delays because they do not get backed up by other flights. We are talking 6-7am flights. Also, non-stops have no connection worries. I'm even willing to go to Fort Lauderdale the morning before the trip (a whole day early) in the event there is a snag that we would all be together as we trek in the car to Sea Base.

Where I like Beavah's thoughts is that we can all imagine all the bad stuff that could happen. Heart Attacks of the sole leader, hurricanes and tornadoes, etc. But, I think for the kids we are obligated to be practical in our thinking, and run with the high probability maneuvers. Otherwise, none of us would go anywhere, because we can all dream up what could happen or what might happen and paralyze everyone in not wanting to do anything. That's not my son's reason for being in scouting, and I'm not going to teach my son to be overly paranoid. Could something happen to the other leader on the plane? Yes, and when everyone gets to Fort Lauderdale we'll deal with it then. If we do not get another leader then none of us go to Sea Base, we return home. If another leader takes her place, then we continue on to Sea Base. If something happens to (her), the other leader, in the airport in Illinois, then their parents come pick them up, and my son and I return to CT, unless another leader jumps in to help us. If something happens to me, then the same solutions would prevail as noted above. On top of all that we all have physicals and taken swim tests and I'm almost in the best shape of my life for this trip. So Yes, we can all imagine the awful things that could happen, but I'm not going to live my life paralyzed by those things. Even with the best planning some things are unavoidable, and I do not believe we are leaving very much to chance with the plan I'm suggesting. If the plane goes down, then it would be just as tragic as the tornado that killed a group of scouts in Wisconsin two years ago, but two deep would likely not save the day in that situation.

Wow! Such great advice from everyone. Thank you all very much!

Oak Tree: I appreciate that you shared the common experience with your Philmont trip. In some of the travel instances you described is there only going to be one adult with two or more scouts?

Now that I have all the great background from Beavah, Moose Tracks, Scout Nut, TwoCubDad, and the others...

Is there anyone else out there that is going to have or has had this same scenario occur, as I am going through right now? Here's the Summary: One leader and multiple scouts, traveling and meeting another leader and one or more scouts, out of their troops Council limits to connect for a camping trip or other high adventure outing? Is anyone else planning trips like this and finding that their Council is fine with their Tour Plan?

I would like to pile up as many similar situations as my experience so that I can accumulate examples and aggregate precedent that what I'm seeking here is not way out-of-bounds and in violation of National's rule. I understand my CC has the right to create a higher burden for safety reasons, but he has stated that I am violating National's rules by suggesting that there will only be one leader on the first leg of our Sea Base trip. And, as all of you that have contributed here know the only place there will be only one leader is on the plane ride from Illinois to Fort Lauderdale and on the plane ride returning from Fort Lauderdale to Illinois.

Examples PLEASE ! Bring 'em on!

Beavah... more great commentary thanks. Cooler heads will prevail. In all those bad spots you mentioned, hopefully the CC will realize that while all of that could happen, even if it did the boys are in a public airport and their parents could easily go pick them up. It's not like they are in the Everglades alone at night! :-)

Twocubdad:

We latched on to an open trip this past winter ~ January I believe, and the trip to CT is actually a family reunion and the date may have been selected in February or early March. Just one of those Murphy's Law type of things where the family reunion is the weekend just prior to our Sea Base trip beginning the following Monday. Many relatives are flying in from Texas, and coming in from N.H., etc., so it's not a small reunion where the date could have been shifted just for me and my immediate family. In the beginning, I did not think anything of it. I'm active as an adult leader in the troop but I am not an assistant scout master, so I don't live and breathe all of the rules. I do what the SM and the others need me to, I participate for Board of Reviews, etc. I also often go on camping trips and attend to the adult duties there just to be involved with my son. So, during our first Sea Base crew meeting, which was in early May (the trip being late July) we had all the crew members and their parents attend. One of the parents is also the CC. After that meeting he learned that I was planning to meeting the others in Fort Lauderdale and he looked at me and said, "that may be a problem" - So he looked over the rules and got back to me the following week and told me I needed to fly back but my son could fly alone from CT to FL if I was ok with that. In essence he was telling me that so that I would know that it would only cost me one additional airfare (for me only, not my son if I was ok with him flying directly to FL from CT). So, he's known for a bit over a month, but it was just coincidence he learned about it. Otherwise, we would not have had this issue with him until we filed for the Tour Plan and sought his approval. I did not think anything of it, until he brought it up. I just figured we'd meet in Fort Lauderdale and go on our merry way from there. Never thought it would get raveled in this red tape and never considered that our plan would violate the travel policy. As it turns out it does not violate any rules or policies, rather it's merely hung up in the higher burden that the CC is imposing. Does that clear it up a bit?

Beavah:

Great advice... thank you for taking the time.

Everyone:

Is there anyone else out there reading this that agrees with the main context of Beavah?

I have to say that if I had to hang around with the five scouts the other leader would be flying with for 4+ hours or even a day it would be no problem. All 5 of them are 15 years (or more) old and they would take better care of me than I could ever provide for them. Literally, they would be no inconvenience at all. We're talking about guys that have all slept on the ground at Philmont.

The hum dinger of it all is that the CC's son is probably the oldest and most mature of the 5 scouts that would be traveling with the other leader. Today, as I write this my son is still 13; he will be 14 in early July, and we are suppose to leave for the trip July 18th. So, it is my son that is the youngest. Did I mention that two of the 5 are the other leaders sons and the parents of the other two have given permission for their sons to fly alone with that one other leader. He's still not open to discussion. It's not a matter of the CC being uncomfortable it's that he likes the power and he is using it to try to make me spend approximately $600 more than I should have to. Because my son and I really would like to go I almost feel bullied...

Hope everyone else has a better time with their CC...

ScoutNut and Moose Tracks: I appreciate all of your help and suggestions... It turns out the trek we are taking has a limit of 8 people and so since we are at 8 already they would be replacing us vs. adding onto our existing group.

I will try to speak with Council but it is going to take me some research to find the right person to speak with. Is there a certain title at Council that handles Tour Plan approvals?

Our CC tells me it's not his rule and it's not Council's rule, it is actually National's rule and Council will not be able to over-ride National. He is using them as the bad cop, but it seems moreso that he does not want to be over-ridden. I'll try the second adult going to the gate in Chicago approach and see how that goes with him.

If that does not work, then he is being more difficult and stubborn than having concern for anyone's safety. And, at that point, as much as my son and I have really been looking forward to this trip I will have to recommend he replaces us because I do not have the money to pay twice as much for my airfare and my son's airfare. His suggestion that my son can fly alone from CT to FL but I have to be with the group is where I've drawn the line in the sand. That perplexes me... while it may be legit it is not good leadership or good judgement in my view. So, that is not an option. There is also a chance he cannot find people to take our place and then he'll either have to cancel the trip or he'll need to get behind me. His son is going on the trip too, so I'm going to leave that decision up to him. My son turning 14 one week before we are suppose to go on this trip, so he has several years left for high adventure. He is a young Life Scout and with all those merit badges already behind him we are going to have plenty of opportunity for high adventure over the next 2-4 years.

I'm sure I'm not the only person going through this and I believe this conversation will be very helpful to others. With the way people use air travel these days and have out-of-town family members and relatives I'm sure troops encounter this dilemma all the time. It's not like 30 years ago where most of your family (cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents) all lived in the same neighborhood. Now-a-days many people have to travel to other states on vacations, and family reunions, etc.

Any other thoughts guys? You have both been great! Thanks again, but please feel free to add more to this thread.

Well... I think the CC may be waiting for my son and I to give up our spot, so that they can replace us with another adult and another scout that they would rather have on the trip...

But, if they do that then the CC should be happy there is another leader flying from Illinois, and my son and I should still be able to go. There would be 9 or 10 people on the trip instead of 8. I'm just not sure if SEA BASE could accommodate a group that has one or two additional people at this point or if the limit is 8 people total for the boat that is reserved for us. Not sure~

Any further thoughts from anyone? Should I speak with Council directly and should I get the COR involved?

Moose Tracker (and everyone else):

There is no intention of mis-representing anything in the tour plan. We plan to put everything on the plan. This thread has never suggested hiding any of the details.

What if we had separate tour permits? My son and I from CT and the others with one adult leader from IL?

The other leader has two sons going on the trip and does not mind having the other three boys fly with her.

Parents of scout #4 are fine with their son flying with only her as a leader in the airport and on the plane.

Parents of scout #5 are fine with their son flying with only her as a leader in the airport and on the plane.

The Dad of scout #6 is our Committee Chairman. So, obviously from this thread you know he wants me back in Illinois to fly with the others. His son is 16. My son is 14 and he actually told me that to save money as long as I fly back to Illinois to fly with the other leader and 5 other scouts that my son could fly alone from Connecticut to Florida and meet us there.

It seems to me that he is looking to make this difficult, rather than being concerned for the safety of everyone. Let's face it my son flying alone is a greater risk. I am not going to enhance the safety of his son in O'Hare airport being that he is already 16 and drives a car. And, I'm definitely not going to be a benefit to safety on the plane. We are all flying at our own risk and under the care of the airline at that point.

Any further thoughts anyone?

I believe all the rules are being followed to the letter. All these scouts are 14 years of age and older. They are not Cub Scouts. I believe a Committee Chairperson has the responsibility to follow the rules as they are documented just as a jury is to make their rulings based on the law, not their interpretation as correct as their interpretation may be. In this circumstance I believe the interpretation is overkill.

See the paragraph just prior to "Safety Rule of Four" below... Common departure and destination points are a must.

That is not really my problem though... I'm arguing that the airport in Florida satisfies the requirement of a common departure point and our Committee Chairman is adamant that it must be from our home base. I disagree. Does anyone agree with me given the black and white rule?

Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings

It is the responsibility of the chartered organization of any Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, Varsity Scout team, or Venturing crew or ship to inform the committee and leadership of the unit that sufficient adult leadership must be provided on all trips and outings (coed overnight activities require both male and female adult leaders).

Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities even those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

During transportation to and from planned Scout outings,

Meet for departure at a designated area.

Prearrange a schedule for periodic checkpoint stops as a group.

Plan a daily destination point.

A common departure site and a daily destination point are a must. If you cannot provide two adults for each vehicle, the minimum required is one adult and two or more youth membersnever one on one.

Safety rule of four: No fewer than four individuals (always with the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout. If an accident occurs, one person stays with the injured, and two go for help. Additional adult leadership requirements must reflect an awareness of such factors as size and skill level of the group, anticipated environmental conditions, and overall degree of challenge.

Male and female leaders must have separate sleeping facilities. Married couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are available.

Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping facility.

Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units: Adults and youths of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four youths. A minimum of one of the adults is required to be Youth Protectiontrained. Adults must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as a temporary blanket or a sheet wall in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing area separated from the youth area.

When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his or her parent or guardian.

If separate shower and latrine facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times. The buddy system should be used for latrines by having one person wait outside the entrance, or provide Occupied and Unoccupied signs and/or inside door latches. Adult leaders need to respect the privacy of youth members in situations where youth members are changing clothes or taking showers, and intrude only to the extent that health and safety require. Adults also need to protect their own privacy in similar situations.

Two-deep adult leadership is required for flying activities. For basic orientation flights, the adult licensed pilot in control of the aircraft is sufficient for the flight, while two-deep leadership is maintained on the ground.

Does our troop Committee Chair have the authority to keep my son and I from going on this trip, or to replace me as a leader if I do not fly back to Chicago with my son to join the rest of the crew in departing from our home base? It seems he is over stepping his authority there because the National and Council policies state that you MUST have a common departure point and a common destination, but it does not prescribe that those points must be your home base or within your Council limits or within your home state. It is cost prohibitive for us to make that extra trip and I almost feel he is intentionally trying to make this situation difficult by interpreting the policy his way instead of following the exact words of the policy.

Does anybody know of a situation where crew members of a high adventure (or any other scout trek) have met at a common departure point that was a fair distance from their troop's home base?

Is it ok to have a "departure point" for the Tour Plan of a scout high adventure trip be in a state other than the state that the troop is based? Scenario: 8 people (6 scouts and 2 leaders) are going on a trip to Sea Base. One of the leaders and his scout son are going to be in Connecticut on a family vacation right up until the day before the Sea Base trip begins. Can the leader and his son in Connecticut fly to Fort Lauderdale separate from the leader and the other five scouts in Illinois and "officially" begin the trip in Florida at the Fort Lauderdale airport? There is still a 2.5 hour drive to Sea Base, so there is plenty of travel after the flight, prior to arriving at the destination (SEA BASE). Please let me know your thoughts... Our committee chairperson wants the two members of the crew in Connecticut to fly to Illinois to depart with the other 6 crew members from our troops home base. That happens to be cost prohibitive to the crew members in Connecticut. He is threatening not to sign the Tour Plan, and I'm looking for precedent as support. Nothing in the National Tour Plan Policy seems to suggest the crew members cannot travel separately. Thank you in advance for your input.

The two people in Connecticut is actually one scout and one of the adult leaders on the trip. The other 6 are 5 scouts and the other leader. Youth protection is satisfied because you are allowed to have only one leader in each vehicle on trips and there is no one-over-one leadership of any scout. The leader and scout in Connecticut are father and son.

The Committee Chairperson in our troop is telling us that everyone must leave from a common departure point in Illinois (our home base) or he will not sign the tour permit and send it to Council. Essentially, he wants the adult leader in Connecticut to fly to Illinois to join the other 6 people in their flight to Florida. But, he is ok with the scout who would then be in Connecticut alone, flying to Fort Lauderdale by himself. Doesn't make sense to me, as than one scout would be unsupervised.

I have a question that I cannot find the answer to anywhere. With regard to tour permits:

Has anyone had a situation where part of a high adventure crew was going to be out of town (away from their home base where the troop meets weekly)? In my particular situation, 2 of the 8 people going to Sea Base are going to be in Connecticut the day before the trip begins, and our troop is based in Illinois. The question is: can the DEPARTURE point for the trip, which is required on the tour permit, be in Fort Lauderdale, Florida? Here is the rationale: It makes sense that as long as we are not flying as scouts that we all meet in Fort Lauderdale (the 6 crew members in Illinois fly to Fort Lauderdale from Illinois, and the 2 crew members in Connecticut fly to Fort Lauderdale from Connecticut) and then the official scout trip begins. There is still a 2.5 hour drive from Fort Lauderdale to Sea Base High Adventure Camp. Two deep Leadership and Youth Protection are not issues here. But, do the Connecticut crew members have to fly to Illinois to connect with the other crew members and all fly to Fort Lauderdale together in order to have a valid tour permit? Or, can a DEPARTURE point for a tour permit be anywhere the crew decides as long as it is a common departure point where everyone will rendevous prior to the official beginning of the trip. Our home base is in Illinois, and if all crew members were going to be in Illinois the day before the trip then we would all leave from Illinois and that is the DEPARTURE location that we would list on the tour permit, however, in this situation only 6 members of our crew will be in Illinois and the other 2 will be in Connecticut, making it cost prohibitive to fly to Illinois to hook up with the other crew members before heading to Florida. Has anyone filed a tour permit (AND BEEN APPROVED) using a trip DEPARTURE point that is anything other than their home base (town or state of sponsorship)?