Rick_in_CA

Two things:

1) The Totin' Chip is about learning the safe handling of blades, whether in a scouting event or not. So yes, you can loose the corners even at non scouting events.

2) He is your father - that means he has the authority to take away your knife, your favorite t-shirt or your Totin' Chip card. He also has the authority to ground you, take your TV privileges away, praise you, reward you, feed you cake, buy you shoes, love you, worry about you; and yes, even cut a few corners off the Totin' Chip card when you make a mistake.

Be very glad you have a father that cares enough to do so. You are actually a lucky kid. Even if it doesn't feel like it.

You need to get over it' date=' or go to the local council and view the bylaws, or hire a lawyer and call the LA Times. Unlike the ban on homosexuals, the BSA's religious stance is right there on both the youth and adult application, it's in the oath, it's in the handbook, it's part of the program.[/quote']

 

Is it? This is what the BSA actually says about it (the current Guide to Advancement, page 33):

 

5.0.5.0 Religious Principles

From time to time, issues related to advancement call for an understanding of the position of the Boy Scouts of America on religious principles. In the appendix (section 11), see the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (article IX), and clause 1, Declaration of Religious Principle, from article IX in the Charter and Bylaws of the BSA. The following interpretative statement may help to clarify this position:

 

The Boy Scouts of America does not define what constitutes belief in God or practice of religion. Neither does the BSA require membership in a religious organization or association for membership in the movement. If a Scout does not belong to a religious organization or association, then his parent(s) or guardian(s) will be considered responsible for his religious training. All that is required is the acknowledgment of belief in God as stated in the Scout Oath, and the ability to be reverent as stated in the Scout Law.

 

See the lovely circular logic? All that is required is a belief in God - the BSA refuses to define what constitutes belief in God. That is for the scout and his family to decide. As for A Scout is Reverent, I believe this is the current wording:

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

This doesn't define what God is either. So if someone belongs to a religious faith that doesn't have a god (like many forms of Buddhism) or require a belief in a god (like Unitarianism), who believe they can do their "Duty to God" as their faith defines it, the BSA appears to say they can be members. Which is the situation the OP was in.

 

So to tell the OP: "stop whining, it's all their in black and white" is incorrect.

OK, Finally!!!

 

Here's the response I had tried to send a while back:

 

 

 

Welcome to the forums. You are not alone. I think Merlyn may be better

 

able to respond to your questions as he is a long-time forum member

 

and critic, and is quite knowledgeable with regard to this topic. My

 

response is that the membership application now has a Declaration of

 

Religious Principle (DRP) that anyone signing the form agrees to. From

 

my experience, some people never notice it, and even when they do,

 

they don't pay much attention to it. Others take the DRP very

 

seriously. There's quite a diverse set of views on it.

 

 

 

As near as I can tell, the requirement is for a belief in a 'higher

 

power', not necessarily a supreme being. As I understand it, BSA will

 

accept a belief system that worships a rock or even the 'Flying

 

Spaghetti Monster', (I'm not making this stuff up) both of which, to

 

my mind, hardly qualify as a supreme being...at least not.any more

 

than my cat does (although that cat evidently THINKS it is some kind

 

of supreme being).

 

 

 

In this manner, BSA has, for all practical purposes, accepted any

 

belief system, although a recent forum member has noted that being

 

Pagan has led to local rejection. One forum member long ago noted that

 

his belief in the "higher power of reason" seems to be acceptable to

 

BSA. And in response, even some of the most devout forum members

 

shrank from criticizing him. It's hard to argue with that one.....

The 'God or/and religion Issue is something that if its radicaly changed would ave to be done so at an international level' date=' this is an interesting article on the subject from the World Organisation of the Scout Movement http://www.scout.org/information_eve...tual_dimension

From a UK point of view the God issue exists over here as well, but in a much watered down format, stating that an avowed absence of religous belief is a bar to taking on an adult leadership role within Scouting.

Scouts Canada allows atheists, provided they have a "basic spiritual belief" (which isn't really defined - do you have to believe in ghosts?). What is interesting is the WOSM link you provided specifically says no belief in God is required, then dodges the whole "Atheist" question by ignoring what the word means (a non-theist).

Basically they appear to be saying something of the form: "Atheist is a bad word, so we don't want to apply it to those good atheists over there. So we are going to make up a new definition for the word so we can pretend it doesn't." This is a common way of treating the word by people that haven't really thought it through, or don't understand what the word really means. "Those bad people are Atheists, so those good people can't be Atheists!".

The same thing applies to the word: "agnostic".

Part of the problem is that the BSA is inconsistent in how they interpret their own policies. For example, the BSA has said the following is incompatible with BSA values (and one of the given reasons for disallowing the Unitarian religion awards):

 

http://www.uua.org/re/children/scouting/169563.shtml

 

But I think it is an excellent way of looking at Duty to God. Of course I am Unitarian, so I am biased. However, I cannot see anything in there that is "inconsistent with boy scout values".

The UUA emblem program:

http://www.uua.org/re/children/scouting/169557.shtml

Part of the problem is that the BSA is inconsistent in how they interpret their own policies. For example, the BSA has said the following is incompatible with BSA values (and one of the given reasons for disallowing the Unitarian religion awards):

http://www.uua.org/re/children/scouting/169563.shtml

But I think it is an excellent way of looking at Duty to God. Of course I am Unitarian, so I am biased. However, I cannot see anything in there that is "inconsistent with boy scout values".

So I now the latest change info is out of date. I was able to post to the Issues and Politics forum, but it shows the most recent post as 5-31-2013, not today (like it should).

Now I can't post at all. I tried to apologize to BadenP and all I get is errors. Maybe I can post here?

OK. I can post here. Why not anywhere else?

I'm having trouble posting things as it keeps giving me "Empty Response" errors.

Matt' date=' I understand that the theologically liberal can always cherry-pick arguments that support their own side,...[/quote']

 

Of course, the theologically conservative never cherry-pick arguments? It's just liberals? Really?

 

Scouter99:

I wrote two letters to national and got no response. The official word is that I was not prevented for holding leadership positions, removed as a district trainer, and prevented from completing my ticket because I’m not Christian. I was removed because I refused to adhere to the principals taught at Wood Badge.

 

Basically, I didn’t wear the hat unless forced because in my religion your head is sacred and should not be covered. Then, by asking for religious accommodations I wasn’t following the patrol method because everyone in the patrol has to do the same thing, so I can’t go off on my own at any point for any reason AND I had to participate in all the Christian Religious ceremonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Druidism

Can you name and shame these districts or is it all in your head?

Can I name the district? Unfortunately no.

The Muslim scouter that told me about his old council did tell it's name, and where it was. But that was at a district bbq three years ago, and I don't remember (I just remember it wasn't in a western state - yah, big help there). What I can tell you is basically the story he told me: He had been attending his district round table, and noticed that they were always opened with an overtly Christian prayer. This didn't bother him much, he just assumed that was because only Christians were volunteering to lead the prayer. So he offered to lead the opening prayer at the next round table. He was told that non-Christian prayers were not allowed, and to justify that he was told a story about the last time it was tried (basically the result was threats and violence - he told me the story as he remembered it, we both felt it was so over the top - it had to be grossly exaggerated). He then felt that several scouters went out of their way to make him feel uncomfortable at district and council events (such as the person leading the prayer instead of standing in front of the room, that person would come over and stand in front of him or another Muslim scouter when leading the prayer - or including phrases like "bring Jesus to the non-believers" in the prayers). He told me he reached out to other scouters for support, and didn't get any. So he stopped going to round table and other council events.

Of course this is one persons point of view, is he exaggerating or misinterpreting? Maybe. I assume he was basically honest about his experiences.

My personal guess is that what he encountered was not an official policy of the district or council, it was the result of a group of scouter volunteers taking it upon themselves to "Christianize" things, and no one was willing or interested in challenging them (or perhaps it was an anti-Muslim thing).

Of course, maybe he made up the whole thing, and it's all in his head. I don't really know.

@Rick in CA: You cannot seriously think that the people who don't want gays in Scouting are on an all out crusade to get ride of the non-Christians too.

An all out crusade? No, though there is a small minority (as you pointed out) that would like that. What I have seen, is that there is a large group of people that would like to see the BSA become (or in their opinion, remain) a de facto Christian organization that allows others, but follows Christian beliefs (sort of like the AHG). In discussions of the membership question, when people are asked about "what about other faiths?" I heard a lot of "I don't care about the others, they have to conform to Christian beliefs if they want to be here." (or something to that effect). And of course, just about all these people define "Christian" as "conservative Christian".

Basically I saw that a lot of the people (though not all) in the anti-membership change camp were very dismissive of different beliefs ("Don't talk to me about nonsectarian! That's just PC b# s# they had to put in to keep funding from the United Way!").

Yes, they are a minority (at least I hope they are - they are in my council), but there are a lot of them. My fear is that if they win the vote, it will empower them to push their point-of-view in more areas. I have already met one scouter that said he was effectively made unwelcome (at council and district events) in his old council simply because he was a Muslim and offered to lead an opening prayer at a round table.

Think about it, arguing against inclusion of gays based on religious belief is incompatible with nonsectarian. How many of the people making that argument know that but just don't care? For many scouters, nonsectarian is something to be ignored. For some, it's something to be gotten rid of.

Already there are districts where if you are a non-Christian scout or scouter, you will have your face rubbed in that fact at every event. And for some scouters, that is the point.

Maybe I'm overreacting to things said in heat. But I was surprised how little respect some people have for faiths other than their own.

My post vote plans will be based on how it all falls out. If the vote is a no, it will depend on how it happens. Basically, if it all turns out that the BSA takes a turn for the right, and it becomes clear that people that are not social conservatives are not welcome, I will leave. I had a conversation with a scouter that basically went "once we get rid of the fags, next we get rid of the #%$# Hindus, Muslims and women!". If people like that win, the BSA is dead, and I'm gone. If on the other hand, people like me are still welcome (or at least tolerated), I'm going to continue to write letters, and advocate for change from within.

A no vote isn't an automatic "I'm leaving". But given some of the things I have heard from some scouters, if they get their way, I won't have to leave on my own. I will be "unacceptable" just for being Unitarian (or as one scouter put it: "#$ Unitarianism isn't a real religion, and they shouldn't be allowed!"). Way to live "A Scout if Reverent".

llinois was the first state to decriminalize the act of sodomy (in 1962) ' date=' but it was still a criminal offense to solicit another to commit sodomy. Other states gradually repealed the consensual sodomy laws until the 2003 SCOTUS decision (reversing its earlier 1986 decision which said states COULD have anti-sodomy laws).[/quote']

 

Good point. But a good question is, how many states enforced those laws in the 60s, 70s and 80s? One of the local towns still has a law on the books that says it is illegal to drive a car without having a bell ringer walking in front of the car to announce it's presence*. I don't know of anyone (including me) that has had that law enforced upon. I don't know the answer to my question. Anyone have info on that?

 

* That same town apparently has a law on the books that says it's illegal to allow your donkey to sleep in the bathtub. I would love to know the history on that one!

Carry on as usual. Suggest we initiate testing to confirm presence of covert infiltrators (assign point scale for how they cross their legs' date=' how they hold a baseball bat, unusual or excessive knowledge of show tune lyrics, etc.) just in case. [/quote']

 

That part really made me smile. Thanks AZMike!

 

Are non-Christian prayers acceptable at council or district events?

At my local council and district events, the opening prayer or invocation usually takes one of two forms: overtly Christian (“In Jesus’ name, amenâ€Â) or generic (“May the great Scout Master...â€Â). Almost never overtly Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Now I live in a diverse region, we have many churches and temples of different faiths in the area (there is even a Zoroastrian temple in town - I’ve been told one of the local troops has a pair of Zoroastrian scouts). In my own pack, most of the families are various flavors of Christian (mostly Catholic), but we have, or have had, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu families. So this topic came up for discussion with some scouters at a round table BBQ a while back.

One of the scouters said that his previous council (he has recently moved to our area) all the prayers were overtly Christian, and he had offered to give a Muslim prayer to open a round table (he is Muslim). He was told no because too many scouters would be offended so it wasn’t allowed (there is a story he was told to go along with that - I don’t want to derail the discussion, so I won’t repeat it here). I found this to be very surprising (and hope what he was told was incorrect). I have no reason to believe a similar rule exists in my local council or district.

So the question: would you be offended if an overtly Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or other non-Christian prayer was used to open a district or council event (unit events are a different issue)?

If yes, why? And if yes, are you also offended by overtly Christian prayers (and if no to that, why not)?

Does your local district or council have a rule against non-Christian prayers at district or council events?

Our council has told us that they were allocating their five votes in proportion to how the council board voted: 4 in favor, 1 against.

Two' date=' I think that integrating Cub Scouts is more straightforward than Boy Scouts because of the family orientation. I think that a Tigress program would be nearly identical to the Tiger program, swap the Achievement/Elective for Go See It: Sporting with Elective: Performance and you pretty much have the Tigress program. Wolf/Bear are more complicated, I'd have the Wolfess/Bearess programs do more sewing, less whittling, and a few other things. One of the strengths of scouting is that it plays to gender stereotypes while society as a whole fights them.[/quote']

 

Because everyone knows, girls can't be interested in sports? Because we don't want to encourage them to do any "manly" things like whittling? Gender stereotypes are a GOOD thing???? One of BSA's strengths??? Really?

 

Since there are plenty of girls that want to do the current cub program, why would we have to change any of it (other than adjusting a few of the pronouns in the hand book)?

Females generally disapprove of boys behaving like boys.

Really? How about some examples?

<< It means not making rules that favor one religions beliefs over that of another religion.. It means not forcing one religion to follow the belief system of another religion.. It means hands off in the any differing viewpoints of what is moral and what is not' date=' as well as if Jesus is or is not the son of God, or if there are many Gods, or if your higher power isn't even considered a god.. IT MEANS HANDS OFF.. >> Oh, balogney, Moosetracker. You recite the preferred position of atheists and the Supreme Court, which is to restrict or eliminate all religious expression in the public square. The only religious discussion to be accepted is that of atheists, on the theory that THEIR religious beliefs don't constitute a religion, and should therefore have a monopoly of expression in the public square. Of course, that's unreasonable and absurd. What REAL diversity involves is that everyone is entitled to and encouraged to express their religious and moral beliefs, and to struggle to have them accepted by the community at large. [/quote']

 

SeattlePioneer, I do not understand your point. Please help me understand, what does anything that Moosetracker wrote here have anything to do with atheism?

 

This is simply because girls are different' date=' and even Cub Scouts realize it. They think different, act different, and learn different.[/quote']

 

While it is true that boys and girls are different, I wonder how different? I think many of our schools have taken things too far in the boys should act and learn just like the girls direction. But I am worried that one reaction to that is to go too far in the "boys and girls are different" direction. We don't want to go back to the days of "girls can't do math" or "boys can't be nurturing".

 

One thing to remember about venture groups. It is optional for them if they accept girls. Not all venture groups do. I imagine if the BSA became open to girls at all levels, it will be optional. If a unit doesn't want to deal with it, they can say no.

I brought this up in a previous thread, but it didn’t belong there, it belongs in it’s own thread.

The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. The question is: “What does nonsectarian mean to you in a BSA contextâ€Â?

The reason I am asking, is that over the last several years, I have had discussions with fellow scouters about the nonsectarianism of the BSA, and have heard many different interpretations: from very broad to dismissive. I have heard scouters say things like: “The BSA is a christian organization, and nonsectarian means the same thing as nondenominational†too “to be properly nonsectarian means you shouldn’t open a district or council event with a prayer since no prayer can satisfy all religionsâ€Â. Obviously not all scouters agree on what it means. If I remember correctly, even the BSA’s Religious Relationships Committee referred to the BSA as a Christian ecumenical organization (in a letter to the UUA back in the late 90s).

So, what does our community think?

Could you cite those for me' date=' Rick? In which academic journals did they appear?[/quote']

 

I don't remember. It was back in college, and that was years ago. I do remember being unimpressed with the quality of the two that I did read at that time.

 

The point I was (trying) to make was: just because you can find an academic study or studies that appear to support a point of view, doesn't mean that they are good studies, or that their conclusions are being correctly interpreted.

 

As for addressing your quote, it was probably miss-placed. I agree with you that teen and pre-teen boys shouldn't always be given a final say on safety issues. We I was trying to address, was the implied point that having gays in the BSA was a SAFETY issue. And to support that claim, some people cite a few bogus studies. Hence the jibe about academic studies.

 

As for the studies themselves, like I said, I don't even remember their titles. However, after a quick Google search, I was able to find references to several more recent ones that appear to address the issues of religious fundamentalism, abuse and violence in the "Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion". I haven't read any of them (and don't plan too - this is not an area of interest to me), so I can't comment on their relevance or quality.