questioning

Gee answer off forum. Is that a change from the last 7 pages of discussion. I seperates those that disagree so there is no support. Kewl stratagy. WON'T WORK. Kicking proof to the curb while demanding proof won't work either. I get so tired of "prove it, prove it" and "I know that 92 years ago". PULEEZE We must be reading differant books. and I was there more than 50 years ago and I am here to testify that it was differant. To tell me to prove what I witnessed and testified to is calling me a liar and as a scout and scouter for many years, I DON'T LIE.

Thank you for you time.

Howard Menzer

Eagle-1951

Silver Award-1954

Vigil Order of The Arrow 1983

Bob, I wonder why you chose to answer me privately for my last posting. Did I come too close to the truth? How would you know what was 92 years ago? Were you there? The books i read indicate that you have handled the truth with carelessness Bob. Thogh I will continue to use questioning as my handle here, I am including your letter in this post because public forums should remain public and not go private without the recipiant's permission.

In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:08:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, info@scouter.com writes:

"The move of Exploring to Learn for life is a change."

It is a program change not a values change. the traditional progams of scouting have not changed values. Since most explorerr posts were sponsored by government related organiations such as Police departments, the BSA moved that program to Learning for life to avoid problems with anti-discrimination requirements in government sponsored activities.

The Boy Scout Troop program has never altered their values.

"The major change is that the parents (the troop committee) no longer have the power to do what they want."

They never did. As a scout in the fidties you had no idea what national or even local policies were. We knew about when meetings were and when the campouts were. Since when did the youth members get invlved in national BSA policy issues. Not until the nineties when it became the politically fashionable thing to do.

"You have gone into the Supreme court to be a private discriminating organization."

No we didn't. We were a private discriminating organization 92 years ago. We were forced to take our cause to US Supreme court to prove to those who said we were not acting legally that we in fact were.

If you are correct that the BSA has altered its values then if proof exists today of what we are then prove must exist that in the past we were. Show us the change. So far you have not.

Bob White

This Member to Member private message was sent by Bob White

Use hyperlink below to reply:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/member2member.asp?to=Bob+White&subject=RE%3A+Course+reversal+in+Philly%3F

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You admit change in the explorer program and then say there was no change. I grew up in the 40s and 50s and was a APA and an ASM in the 50s Bob. I am 66 years old sir. I know what the policy was then and now but if you choose to close your eyes to the truth noone can force you to see it but I would say that is sad. Very sad

Howard Menzer

Southwest Regional Director

Scouting For All

If you believe what you're doing is right

do not take a backward step but

stand for what you believe

Bob, the statements of both Shields and Williams show a change in attitude. You may not want to admit it but it is there. The move of Exploring to Learn for life is a change. When the Oath was created Morally straight had nothing to do with "not gay". Now you all center on that meening. Bob, it is time to open your eyes and see the truth. I knew I was gay at age 12 and the whole troop knew. It was no big deal then. The were two boys in our troop that were non-theists and it didn't matter a hill of beens. You have gone into the Supreme court to be a private discriminating organization. If you can not see that as a change then you are blind and just do not want to see. The major change is that the parents (the troop committee) no longer have the power to do what they want. National today is so steeped in rejection of an entire sect of the population. BSA is the only branch of world scouting to take this stance.

Your "Show me proof" statement just doesn't make sense. The proof is there if you will only see, but if you refuse to see the truth all the proof in the world will not make a differance.

There is always room for compromise. I don't see non-thiests burning money because it says "in god we trust". ya think?

hI bOB. i'M BACK. IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT READ VERY WELL. yOU JUST TAKE THE JIST AND THEN ATTACK.

2 PAGES AGO I said I would sit down with the boy and direct him to his parents because at that time he needed guidance rather than being kicked to the curb. You inediate response was "You would not direct him to his parents" and then came the attack on me and my understanding of the handbooks.

Let me make this clear. I joined Cubscouts in 1945 and left at the end of 1999 when I could no longer stand the intolerance. I am an eagle and hold the silver award in exploring. Do you even remember that program? I am also a vigil honor member of the Order of the arrow and have been the advisor in both the chapter and the lodge So I know and understand the book. The problem is not with the books. They haven't changed. It is the attitude of the top brass in Scouting that has changed and with their memos and policy changes (yes Bob, CHANGES) they have turned BSA into a battle ground.

Also to answer another question, I am aware that a lot of churches do not axcept the "gay lifestyle" but that is what made the plan so good. There was room for all. A church could say no to gay members in their troop, and a school or fire department could say yes. I was the parents and the sponsoring inst. that made the discission, not some guy down in Texas.

The book has not changed, only the teaching.

Morally straight had nothing to do with not bring gay yet mr Shields has quoted it as meaning just that. The differance is not in the book but in the teaching.

Now for a scout who comes to a scoutmaster about orientation the SM needs to deal with it not by telling him it is right or wrong but by guiding him to his parents and not kicking him to the curb.

I will be happy to answer that Bob

How about the Scout law:

A scout is Trustworthy- So when an youth whi has beenin scouting for say 6 of 7 years reaches Puberty and begins to question He better not go to his scoutmaster who he truly trusts and broch the subject. He must hide it and lie about it. The fact is the moment you begin teaching chat there is a segment of the population that is not as good as them because of who they are nad not what they have done you are teaching hate.

A scout is friendly- A brother to all other scouts and a friend to all showing acceptance of their ways.

Bob, here is a question for you. Do you believe in the Scout oath and Law, and do you follow it. Lately I have seen too many breaches in it by the National Executive board and I must say many of those in this forum.

Fact is when a young man begins to question the needs guidance and help not dismissal.

Teach the BSA way. The BSA way use to be an accepting way. Unfortunatly it has changed. Hopefully they will turn back to acceptance of all boys because they have so much to offer. The sponsoring institution and the unit committee (the parents) should decide on the scoutmaster. Then all religions would be accepted. There is so much missing from Baden Powell's concept of a "manboy" and the direction of openness and acceptance in todays scouting. Having been involved for 54 years I have seen it both ways and I must say this way is very lacking.

Bob Walker was right. Scoutmasters come from all walks of life, but then so do gays. Your neighbor or your neighbor's son or daughter could be one but unless you are accepting you may never know

The opinion seems to be that all the gays in scouting should stay in the closet and continue to teach non-acceptance to the youth of america. What Greg did is what needed to be done. My prayer is that many more gregs out there will stand up and be counted. You hate what you do not understand. I spent 54 years in scouting in the perverbial closet hearing all the off color remarks about gays this and fags that. There comes a time when we must all stand up for ourselves and what is right. Greg did just that in Phili on that day. What I do not understand is how is this council saying "we will not discriminate" and then throughing Greg out got to do with a scout is trustworthy. I call that a broken promise of the worst kind.