PNWscouter

So, after soaking up all the posts on this topic as well as a little song, I came to some realizations. I must say that I am sorry, Sorry I didn't realize that in virtual scouting, extending class "b" wear from summer to the rest of the year would result in me driving my boys around in the bed of my truck, on private property without permission, drinking beer and cussing while shooting pistols at street signs or any other G2SS violation. I didn't realize adults wearing a uniform will give more support to their boys and be more trustworthy than they now are (you can even trust them with money.) And the boys, they will go the furthest in the program, they will want to be there the most and follow policy. Heck, who needs BSA guidelines if anyone who puts on the "official" uniform can absorb all these great things from a piece of clothing.

Although I must say, I don't think my boys knew they were geeks, they thought they were like all of their friends, cool, in a great and fun program that did great things but made their friends think they "looked" like geeks.

My bad!

CR, I feel once a week fundraising is quite excessive. I would guess the boys would burn out on this quickly. Does the LDS church not kick in quite a bit of money to help buy camping equipment?

Fundraising for individual equipment is against the law if you are raising it under the impression it is for Boy Scouts or your church. Any funds that are raised under this non-profit status must remain with the troop or church. If you need a gear list email me and I will send you the one we use, or there are many on the net you could tailor to your needs. Most important when starting a new troop, recruit as many willing adults as you can, trust me I know. Good luck!

You mention some important points about mixed boys in patrols but in our troop we have the same thing going on with same age patrols. Even though they are in different patrols the older boys still help and try to maintain control over the younger boys. When we go camping the older boys will set up their site then help the younger boys, if the younger boys are having trouble cooking, they will ask help from the older boys, etc. On patrol outings the ASM or adults will help the younger boys. The problem with a mixed patrol is different age group doing different things. What do you do if the older patrol wants to go rafting, white water rafting, etc? The boys that meet high adventure requirements go and the rest of the patrol stay home? Also, I see it unfair to the older boys because they are always going over things they have learned instead of learning or doing new things. They may be helping boys at a meeting by working on 2nd class or 1st class requirements instead of doinf something they want to do or the reverse, at the PLC they decide they want to work an a tough merit badge when the new scouts haven't yet learned how a compass works. I also try not to split up boys that do not get along. I keep them together, figure out which one is causing it and deal with that or if both are, deal with them both.

One warning about some colors that seem bright in sunlight and close range is they do not appear that way at a distance. Red is a perfect example of this, at a distance or in dim light conditions, red appears black. If you are looking for colors that can be seen beyond the range of a voice I would pick hunter (flourescent) orange. Also cammo is only effective if the person wearing it is perfectly still and against an object of simular color such as white in snow or treebark pattern standing against a tree trunk. In most cases there is a contrasting background which can be seen easily. Someone wearing green camo, walking through the forest can be seen as easily as someone wearing blue jeans.

Yes, at camp I give the meds to the medic and let him deal with them. He administered them as the parents wished but I would give the scout his medication before bed since it was impossible to track down the medic and guess when would be the appropriate time. (He had to have them one hour before bed.) The main reason I posted this question was for our troop other outings throughout the year.

"Everyone knows that each troop has the flexibility of creating a program that is tailored to their youth."

That is not an accurate representaion of the fatcs. I know of nothing in the BSA program that says that. The program is already created. The Co in signing the annual "Shared responsibilities" agreement contracts with the BSA to follow their program, policies and procedures.

Bob, in my view it is. You are right, the program is there but the BSA does not tell a troop they have to go on 3 backpacking trips, 2 tailgate camping trips and one high adventure trip a year. They leave this decision to the youth and the troop committee. BSA also does not state that the Class A uniform must be worn to each weekly meeting, to and from camp or when out in public. Each troop makes this decision and in my opinion, none of them are wrong. If a troop decides to not wear their uniform camping, makes sense. If a troop decides to wear class b in the summer, great. If a troop decides to meet bi-weekly, okay. If the troops attendance falls, they had better look at which of these things are causing it. If the attendance increases, more power to them. They are not breaking any rules of the CO or the BSA. Every troop is not the same nor should they be. This allows the boys a choice to pick the troop that suits them.

"What is the benefit of not uning the uniform? Is it really only because of cost? In that case do not by tents. Don't by handbooks or meritbadge books, don't go anywhere that has a camping or activity fee. If money is the issue why stop only at uniforms. Scouts will spend more on food for campouts in a year than they will on a uniform, and they get to keep the uniform a lot longer."

No, I don't believe that cost is a factor as I stated in my other post. Uniforms can actually be free for those that visit a uniform bank. Merit Badge book and handbooks are useful items, a scout can obtain knowledge from them and obtain a good moral base to build on. They also learn different talents from MB books which could even lead to a career. You are right, we could do without tents. A rope and a tarp or even sleeping under the stars is a great experience. Food must be purchased whether the scout is camping or at home so I would call this a mandatory item.

Now, with that said, what does the uniform do to create a model scout? Yes, they look the same but do green and red socks really matter?

I ask you and other scouters, which would you rather see in the news. Each boy will always be referred to as a boy scout by the news media, good or bad:

A BS in blue jeans, tee shirt and tennis shoes who just saved someone's life from skills he learned in BS?

or

A nicely dressed scout complete with official shirt, MB sash, pants, belt, sock and underwear in the back of a police car after doing something unlawful?

All I am saying is uniforms are not required every time the scouts are together as a group, in fact they are not required at all. What and how we teach the boys is what really matters and if we could make the existing boys happier by not having them wear a piece of clothing which we are only interested in the 1"x1" tag that is on the inside, or have new boys join, I say try it.

20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago uniforms were seen differently. Nurses wore white uniforms and little white hats. Women wore dresses and men wore suits. There were quite a few people in uniforms so a scout uniform fit in. This is just a guess and I have no data to prove this but I am guessing in those days you could take a scout troop, have them dress in their class A's, stand them in fron of their peers at high school and they would not be embarrassed about wearing the uniform. I doubt any troop could say that today.

For me personally, I have no problem wearing the full uniform. I have 3 complete uniforms and an extra shirt in my closet and I really don't care what others think about it. In fact I am proud to be associated with the BSA.

Parents helping are not an option. Dad works all of the time and mom is not willing, trust me I have asked.

So, what is considered administering medication? If I hold the medicaton bottle under lock and let the scout take the bottle and swallow the correct number of pills am I free from liability?

Also, who would I contact to see if I would be liable to follow a parents note rather than the Dr's orders on the bottle if the dosage was less or at a different time than the Dr's orders? I would not give more than the Dr's orders but at different times could cause problems as well.

So those of you who are a UC or DC, I am sure you see others in the position who do not do their duties. If you had to take a guess why do you think they sign up for a position if they are not going to do anything? Is it just a status thing for them? They can say the have a title and tell others they help scouters? The reason I ask, 8 years as a scouter, I have had one call from a UC asking when and where our meetings were so he could visit, after this conversation, he vanished. In 8 years I have never had a representitive from the district show up for a CS or BS meeting, I have never even seen one introduced at round table. I started a new troop recently, I really needed help. The DE was able to help some but she was more interested in getting another application than with how the troop operates. If it weren't for reading posts on this forum and asking other scouters questions I could not have done it.

So I have to ask, what constitutes a uniformed organization? Rpushies, does this mean that any time your troop is together the uniform is on? Do your scouts wear their uniform every day of every outing? Others state they wear just the official shirt but any type of pants, is this considered being in uniform? If a scout wears everything but the socks, is he in uniform, in my personal opinion, no on all counts, he is not in uniform. I also do not consider Scout pants, socks, belt and a troop tee shirt a uniform but again, this is my opinion.

Personally, I am a fan of the uniform, and in the past, the boys were to wear class A at all meetings, going to or coming from any outing and any time we were in the public eye. As time went on, I noticed quite a few other troops in my area going to class b uniforms during summer months(scout uniform with the exception of a troop "t" being worn instead of scout shirt.) I brought this to the committees attention then to the PLC. We decided to just wear plain clothes when camping, then we went to class "b's" during summer vacation, but this post has me thinking of going a step further. I think one does have to keep an open mind and tweak their program as time goes on as long as it still conforms to BSA regulations. I have boys that do not mind wearing the uniform at all and others that hate it. Recently I held a recruitment at the school. I asked my boys to wear their uniforms if they wanted to, it was purely optional. I asked my son if he would mind, he didn't. He told me that everyone at school knew he was in scouts so he didn't care and would wear it. About 50% of the boys did wear the uniform, they all stopped and said hi to me with their friends. The other 50% did not wear the uniform, some would wave shyly, the others would just stay away obviously embarrassed by the fact they were in scouts. I am sure if anyone would ask their boys the thing they like least about scouts the answer would be the uniform...this is what happened to me anyway. After this, one of my SM minutes was about the uniform and how other organizations wore their uniform with pride, police, firemen, military, etc. I think a few boys realized that it wasn't so bad but quite a few still do not like wearing it. So, one has to ask themselves, what is it that our troop is trying to achieve? Can there be anything done to entice more boys into joining so they can reap the benefits of this fantastic program?

Everyone knows that each troop has the flexibility of creating a program that is tailored to their youth. Some boys may be content with camping twice a year, some with tailgate camping year round, some may want to backpack every trip. If a troop does decide to play video games the majority of the time but learn, advance and mold young boys into good citizens plus retain their youth is this really a bad thing just because it does not conform to my program or yours? The reason I camp and do not like electronics is because I feel the boys do not get enough time outdoors and they end up having fun doing it but I will not slam a unit that does differently.

If a unit decides not to uniform and the scout believes that he must wear a uniform to be a Boy Scout then there will be a troop nearby that will accommodate him or I am sure nobody would mind if he did wear a uniform to the meetings.

I ran this by my ASM last night and asked him to think about the pro's and con's and to get back to me. We may run a modified version past the committee if it seems like something that may work. My thought is either no uniform or just a troop tee shirt during meetings. Regular clothing for outings. Class A uniform for MB, Courts of honor, BOR and Fundraising.

My feeling on this is that the program itself creates the boy scout, the uniform does not. If this were not a requirement, so boys that could not afford to buy a uniform could join, then would there not be an opportunity to purchase uniforms at a reduced rate? There are also many uniform banks around so the cost of the uniform should not be an issue to anyone who wants one. I am sure national prefers everyone wear a uniform, heck buy 3 or 4. Judging by the price one pays for the entire uniform, I am guessing the markup is only $1.50 so I am sure it is not for the revenue.

EagleInKy, sorry, I knew this and still managed to screw up! Trust me, if I continue to post on here, you will be a busy man, grammar and spelling are not my strong suits.......come to think of it, I have no strong suits.

I agree that I just need to step back on this one, I have done all I can. I did not nor would not intentionally not give meds or withhold meds from any scout. If mom drops him off and gives me the meds and written instructions on when and how to administer them that conform to the instructions on the bottle, I will follow the instructions. If dad drops him off and does not give me the medication then I will not. Hopefully dad will be bringing him to the meeting. Here is another question, lets say that the bottle reads take 3 pills a day. Parents instructions read only give one in the am. Is there any liability to administering instructions as the parent wishes vs. the Dr's instructions on the bottle?

Also, just out of curiosity, are there any Dr's on here that could tell me how long these drugs stay in a persons system?

We also tried this and my son was the only WEBELO to attend the camporee. This was advertised at roundtable but was not planned well as there was nothing for him to do. I did not feel it was fair to pair him with one of my patrols because he could drag them down. It ended up working out because a few great scouters took him around and he helped grade campsites and perform other tasks of the "staff." I have offered our troop to help with WEBELO woods but it always seems that they have enough help. I wanted to do this so the boys would could be exposed to the cubs and possibly recruit from this. After thinking about this I proposed at the PLC we have an overnight outing inviting WEBELOS (along with parents) from our district. The problem ended up being the date we picked was the same day as another WEBELO function so we will try again later. The problem is "later" will now be well into the winter.

I am sure that many of you have scouts who are diagnosed with ADHD and are on meds. Many of these boys need this medication to maintain focus in their daily lives but it seems that some could do without (or lower doses.) I have one scout that is on medication, I cannot remember the name or dosage at this moment (it is on the med form if needed) and he takes another medication to sleep. When I handed over this medicine at summer camp, the medic responded with "wow, that is a large dose, no wonder he needs XXX to go to sleep." Now, this scout is a great boy but a follower and very lethargic. At camp, even after reminders and pointing him in the right direction, he walked to the health lodge to get his meds but the first day (I found out later) he forgot what he was going for and came back without. The second day the door was locked and he shined them on. I take responsibility for this. Either myself or ASM should have accompanied him to the health lodge but we didn't until I found out that he missed two days. I don't know if it was coincidence (was the drug still in his system?) or not but he was a different boy after missing his meds. He was alert, laughing and not walking around in a trance. Also, I tried to time the drug I was giving him to sleep with the directions, it was supposed to be administered one hour before bedtime, well on most days he was so wiped out from the days activities he was asleep minutes after taking this pill. Now, here is the kicker. When his father picked him up he asked if he took his meds. I told him that there were a few days he missed and I did not have the knowledge to diagnose the boy but explained to him what I saw. He went off, telling me that he didn't believe his son should be on these drugs, the psychiatrist wrote this prescription without even talking to the boy based on what his teacher told him. His mother thought he didn't seem as focused as he should be in school so she went along with it. Now, I have to agree with the father, there are not many 10y/o boys that are 100% focused. I also told this father that the boy needs less time in front of the TV and more activity in his life, I am sure this would help him sleep as well. He told me that the only thing he does at home is excercise his thumbs. This boy is overweight but not greatly so and is winded on short hikes. He is also a very bright child and I am often very impressed when talking to him. It also appears to me that his parents do everything for him. At camp I had to show him how to cut his food. He didn't want to earn his totin chip because his parents would not let him carry a knife (I talked to his father and he indicated this was not true) and he did actually earn his totin chip while at camp. He has no desire to work on his scout book alone but will work on it if I sit down with him showing him each page to read. He basically just follows what others do or say. In the beginning he would go home and tell his mom the outings were terrible and he wanted to quit scouts. Then he would slip up and admit he had a little fun. After his parents told me this, I would ask him when we returned from an outing,in front of his parents, if he had fun, and he always said yes. I can see great potential in this young boy but not in the stupor he seems to be in. What do I do?

My question is why break the NSP up if they wish to remain together? Why not hold an election and convert this NSP into a regular patrol?

Okay, it has been a long day at work, let's see if I can do some math. My truck gets 16MPG with a V8. A newer truck or SUV will get 25MPG, a difference of 9MPG. Now, this new SUV will cost me 30k+, less the 5k the dealer will give me for mine. Sales tax, dealer fees, higher insurance rates, license etc wil eat up the 5K so we are back to 30K for the new truck. Now, with that 30K I keep my truck and buy gas. At 3 bucks a gallon I can buy 10,000 gallons of gas. Now, at 16MPG, I can drive an extra 160,000 miles. This does not factor in the interest I would have to pay on this new vehicle since I don't have 25k in my pocket. Heck, I just realzed gas is now free for the next 5 years, wow!

I have been thinking about this though. It does not bother me to buy gas to haul the boys around but a few of my regular drivers may not be in the same shape as I am. They have never complained but I think it is unfair that nobody else ever offers to drive. I have been thinking about proposing to the committee a "gas fee" charged for outings. Many places we go end up being 200+ miles round trip mostly in pickups. Do any other troops do this?

Actually I had 2/3 trips planned, one involving a canoe trip down a calm river, about 2-3MPH current. The second would be a waterski/motorboating MB class. I think I will test the boys that didn't pass at the lake if they want to ski but let them go on the canoe and in the boat if they want. Does this sound like a good plan?

BTW, one boy was scared because he couldn't see the bottom, the other was because of the alge. Also, my son who will be a BS next x-over freaks out over fish!!!!!

I have another question about swimmer tests. Suppose a scout passes his swimmer test in a pool following all the requirements. Later, he fails the same test at summer camp in a lake. Is this scout now considered a beginner and unable to do anything requiring a swimmer status? If so, do future tests now have to be administered in a lake? This recently happened to two of my boys.