Pioneer DC

By the way, DD - I'm 100% behind you. Your position makes absolute sense to me and I fully agree. I'm proud to be a Scouter and donate all the time I do because of BSA's stand on principle.

Morality, by its very nature, implies a standard for right and wrong. Like it or not, our Country's laws are founded on Judeo-Christian principles and those are the principles that should define morality as far as BSA is concerned. The real issue and why we will never agree here. We have two sides here: one that believes in absolute moral standards and the other that believes in moral relativism - meaning no standards at all except for what each person defines for himself. These two positions are mutually exclusive, plain and simple, and that is why we will never agree here.

Maybe we should discuss the merits of a relativistic approach to morals and debate the pros and cons of that.

6. And actually you dont really want your own organization; your real mission is to change the values and beliefs of others.

This is, and always has been, the real agenda. The same people who teach tolerance are consistently intolerant of others who do not agree with their viewpoint. Ironic, isn't it.

I agree that this cannot become a local discretionary issue - that would certainly be the death of the program because as OGE has stated, that opens up other items such as advancements, training, etc. to local discretion, as well. Those who are unwilling to accept the National policy should leave the program. I would have much more respect for someone who would leave the program on principle than stay in the program and circumvent the established and stated policies of BSA.

That said, I will point out once again that the establishment of alternative Scouting programs is not in the cards. While seems like a good and logical solution, the agenda is much different. BSA is under attack because of its stand on traditional values and nothing less than getting National to change its policies will be acceptable. The BSA issue is just part of the whole program we see in the media, our schools, etc. to do away with family values, one piece at a time.

Khepera - I printed out the Crafting Gay Children article and have bookmarked the RSVP America website. I know I have heard of Judith Reisman before, but I can't place the connection. At any rate, this is really disturbing stuff that gets suppressed by the liberal, pro-homosexual media and once again goes to show that the homosexual lifestyle is not just an innocuous alternative lifestyle as we would be led to believe. Once again, I am glad we have made the decision to home school and have gotten away from the clear Kinsey-esque agenda in the government schools.

scoutmom - you are right, not everyone has the resources to home school, however, you might be surprised at how home schooling can be done. My wife is a flight attendant and is out of town at times, but , because you can be very flexible with home school, we can have school on weekends, in the evening or just double up when she is home. It actually works quite well.

We were in the public school system until just this year, when we finally gave up on the public school system. We are located in California where social engineering takes precedence over actual academics. Because of all the social engineering activities required during the school day, they would send home 2 - 3 hours of actual academic subjects home every day. We finally just got fed up with it and figured out how to make home schooling work. We did a lot of research and talked with lots of home school families. We did check out private schools as well, but felt that, even though it involved some sacrifice, homeschooling was definitely the way to go. Although my wife has struggled with it a bit at times, she is getting better all the time and our son is really benefitting.

I have to admit that I was the skeptic when my wife started exploring the possibilities, even though I knew more home schooling families through my District work with Scouts. Now I'm an enthusiastic convert and can't see ever going back to the government school system.

Khepera - good one! I just had time to scan through it, but bookmarked it to read later.

Interestingly enough, just after I posted my message above, I was reading through my March 2002 edition of Citizen magazine, which is published by Focus on the Family. They have a very informative article in there on the tactics of pedophiles to legitimize their sexual preferences, mainly through the use of "scientific" research which shows young children can make choices on sexual partners and that children who have had sexual relationships with older men have no negative psychological impacts from the experience. I will quote more later.

So what did I say above? It's happening...

DD makes a valid point about non-differentiation between different forms of perversion but he may be just a bit ahead of the curve here. As something of a trend tracker, I can clearly see a greater and growing acceptance of what today we would clearly agree would be unacceptable forms of perversion. Today, we are asked to accept "committed" homosexual couples as just a normal, alternative lifestyle. That doesn't appear to be too much to ask, right?

The problem is that is today. Tomorrow, we will be asked to accept sadism and masochism as just an alternative lifestyle and the day after that - how about pedophilia? Before you go and say that would never be acceptable, look at the trends and the fact that the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) is gaining increased exposure in the media with, for the most part, a neutral (for now) reaction. They are positioning themseleves exactly where the "ordinary" homosexual community was approximately 20 years ago. As we here more about the rights of NAMBLA members to engage in their activities as just another alternative lifestyle, look back and see the effects of what I call "incrementalism." The way to acceptance of these ammoral lifestyles is a slow, constant and relentless push gain first a neutral image and then a positive image for them.

I've been following these trends for going on ten years now and when I look back, it is amazing how much our values as a society have been degraded over that short a period of time just little by little. A court decision by a liberal judge here, an ordinance passed by a liberal city council member, legislation pushed by state senators, "tolerance" programs introduced in schools, the list goes on. Each little step to moral decline does not seem like such a big deal in and of itself, but there is a plan and the sum total of all those little steps is a complete decay of our entire value system.

We are members of Home School Legal Defense Association and I just can't say enough good things about them. We get their weekly email newsletters and it is just amazing to me how many government schools out there are harassing home schoolers and telling them things that absolutely not true in order to make it as difficult as possible for them. HSLDA steps in and defends these people's legal rights to home school. Thank God for an organization like HSLDA that helps these people out. Please pass along to your uncle our appreciation for everything they do. We may not have had to use their services, but it is comforting to know they are there just in case.

I think it will come up that family involvment will be a big factor followed by scouting.

I think that is pretty well documented already. Strong family involvment, teaching of values and being available to your children is critical to their well being and emotional development. That is why the Hillary Clinton "It Takes a Village" philosophy scares me so much. The ability to be together and spend quality time as a family is just so very important. it is something I have to remind myself of all the time as I get wrapped up in my own projects. Spend time with your kids! You (and they) will never regret it.

My point was this: there is a very specific agenda out there and facts are not allowed to get in the way of it. No one said that there are not bad apples among any group.

The Kinsey study that spawned the ten percent myth was based on obviously flawed data. Don't forget, the Kinsey study was done in 1948 and at least six studies since then (1970 - 1994) have shown the homosexual portion of the population to be in the two to three percent range on a pretty consistent basis. Yet, the homosexual lobby persists in telling everyone that ten percent of the population is homosexual. The Los Angeles School District recommends, among other books for its students, a book called One Teenager in Ten, a book that clearly continues the Big Lie.

So why am I bringing all this up? Because there is clearly an agenda out there and the homosexual issue is only part of it. It has to do with destroying our values and principles through incrementalism. To illustrate this, see The Humanist Manifesto 2000 by Paul Kurtz. This is a successor to The Humanist Manifesto and The Humanist Manifesto II which were published in 1933 and 1973, respectively. It is all right there for anyone with eyes to see.

Why don't these people who want to change the Boy Scouts to include avowed homosexuals and atheists go off and form their own organizations? The answer is simple. The goal is not to have an all inclusive group, it is to break down the Scouts morals and values and replace them with moral relativism. The true goal of the humanists is to destroy what the Scouts stand for. Character Counts, On My Honor and Timeless Values are abhorrent to these people.

Do not be deluded. All these groups that preach tolerance are not themselves tolerant of any other position but their own.

Bob Russell: I would have to disagree with you in your remarks to Dedicated Dad. Homosexuality is inherently a dangerous lifestyle and all the talk about loving, committed partners is just a smokescreen. I'm sure there are some, but the fact remains that most homosexuals have many sexual partners and tend towards ever increasing bizarre sexual activities such as bondage and sadism to keep the thrill going. Homosexuals have, as a group, shorter lifespans than heterosexuals because of this lifestyle. It is not just an alternative lifestyle - that is the propaganda that is spewed constantly. It is obviously working from examining some of the posts here. Here's another one: ten percent of the population is homosexual - true or false? This is another one of the big lies that keeps getting repeated over and over. Although this claim has been long discredited, that doesn't stop the homosexual agenda from continuing to repeat it in attempts to gain legitimacy. Originally published in Alfred Kinsey's Sexual Behavior in the Human Male in 1948, this study has been shown to have been heavily weighted by choosing subjects from known populations with higher than normal homosexual orientations, such as the prision population. But let us not let mere facts get in the way of promoting the agenda, after all.

Want to read more about the agenda? Try reading After the Ball: How America Will Conquer its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90s by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen. This is basically the blueprint for gaining acceptance for homosexual culture in this country. This book was published in 1989 and it is scary to look back and see how much of it agenda is being used to turn people's opinions. Some might even say...Orwellian.

This is our first year home schooling (my son is 11 years old and in "6th grade"). We are so happy we made the move after planning for it for almost a year. We gathered a lot of information, made decisions on cirriculum and joined a several home school support groups. There have certainly been some trials, but the experience has been very rewarding. We do know a lot of hime schooling peope through Scouts and that has been a resource for us as well.

Just as an example, my son is doing 8th grade math and reading while his writing skills leave something to be desired and he is performing at a lower level there. Only in home schooling can you customize the program so that the child can work at different levels in different subjects based on his abililites. And where else can you work in a unit study on the Revolutionary War to justify a trip to Boston or a unit on sea life to justify a trip to go snorkeling in Hawaii? That is the true beauty of home schooling - you are not bound by the government school system. So many opportunities present themselves for learning about the world around us - not just in a boring classroom from 8 - 3 every day.

We also find Scouting and home schooling go well together. Many merit badge subjects work very well into the school program as do the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout law. It is almost like they are made for each other.

BTW does the DC have anything to do with the District

District Commissioner. Also, working on setting up a targeted program within our Council for home schoolers.

Public schools employ gay teachers and no one sees a threat to their kids over this. People aren't pulling their kids out of school because of this.

Guess again. Have you seen the growth in home schooling in this country? My wife and I home school and know many others who do as well and many them are also involved in Scouts. Any guesses on why they choose to home school? Might it have something to do with the abandonment of education and the promotion of social engineering including a big push on incorporating homosexual "awareness" into all areas of the cirriculum. Have you seen the NEA agenda promoting homosexual education? Have you seen the California initiative to incorporate hmosexual "role models" into all areas of classroom studies? The home schooling movement is growing precisely because of parental concerns about homosexual education and other similar issues.

What baffles me the greatest is why someone doesnt start the Gay Scouts?

The answer to this question should be obvious. The agenda is not to have an organization that is inclusive of homosexuals. Quite the opposite. The agenda is to destroy every vestige of traditional family values, moral absolutes and personal responsibility and to replace them with moral relativism. From many of the responses and comments I see on this forum, it is working. People do not see any problem with letting our values slip away a little bit at a time, but one day we will wonder what happened to them and how the world around us got to be that way. In spite of what some of the people on this forum may say, it is still honorable to stand on principle.

sctmom -

Once again I hear the refrain of there is no right or wrong - everyone should make their own choices. I am here to tell you there are absolute rights and wrongs in this world. The words you are speaking are propaganda right out of the Humanist Manifesto 2000. If you do not think there is an agenda out there and these attacks on the Boy Scouts are not part of it, I would urge you to read this book. It is not real long and should be available from your local library. If after reading this, you don't understand what the agenda and tactics are, then maybe a bit further reading at this link: http://members.ll.net/chiliast/pdocs/homomanifest.htm.

There is more, but I think you get the point. It all happens bit by bit - the decay of our morals, values, principles in small increments. At some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say no more. That is what the Boy Scouts have done and that is why I am so supportive of their position. People who are ambivalent to the incremental destruction of the ideals we hold (or should hold) dear will one day look around them and wonder what happened.

The only threat that national sees in gays is the loss og the LDS troops and other troops chartered to churches that take the "anti-gay" stance.

I think you are sadly mistaken if you think that this is only about membership numbers or money. This is the thought process of a typical political liberal. It really is a matter of principle. Unfortunately, in these days of relativistic values, many people do not understand taking a stand on principle or even why having and teaching values is imporant. In discussions with people from National and at the Council level, I think they understand how important the issue is and they are proud of the stand they are taking as a whole. That is not to say there is not a certain element who is pushing to cave into the humanist agenda, but, fortunately, the majority of the people in charge support standing by our values

I just have to weigh in here when I hear people talking about the Bible being myth and stories and that there is no literal factual basis for many of the Old Testament accounts (and for all I know you may be addressing the New Testament as well). As a geologist and avid student of Genesis, I can assure you that there is sound factual basis and, in many cases, archaeological evidence supporting the Bible.

I too once thought that, as a scientist, that the Bible was a collection of fables, myths and stories designed to illustrate a point, but that they were not literally true. When I began an active inquiry into Genesis and Creation several years ago, I changed my mind. When you delve into the scientific evidence and details, you realize that the hearsay about the Bible as a series of fables and myths is merely another part of the humanist agenda to corrupt our thinking.

I have accumulated reams and reams of data on the solid science behind the Genesis account and am finding abundant archaeological evidence for much of the rest of the Old Testament. New archaeological discoveries always seem to verify Biblical accounts.

If you truly take the time to study this issue, you will be amazed at what you will find. The hooey about the ark not being able to float is just that - hooey! The seaworthiness of the ark has been proven on several occasions through the use of computer modeling using the specifications found in Genesis 6:14-16, yet we still hear that it could not possibly have been seaworthy or been able to hold all the animals, etc. The Bible holds up very well to honest scientific scrutiny.

Thank God. The Boy Scouts often stand alone in their defense of positive morals and traditional values. They are a breath of fresh air in these days of "opinion poll politics."

I am a strong supporter of the Boy Scouts because of their stand on traditional values - that is why I put in all the volunteer time I do. It is one of the few organizations that is willing stand up to the humanist agenda to degrade our value system. In talking with Scout leaders, while a number of them are supportive of homosexual Scout leaders, many of them would leave Scouting if this changed and many more may or may not stay but would be much less committed to the program if they did stay. Although I am not LDS, I deal a lot with LDS Scout units and I can affirm that they would leave the Scout program almost en masse. In California, LDS is a significant component of the Scouting program and it would really hurt the program to have them leave. Many Scout units are chartered by religious organizations, so you would most likely see these chartered organizations, even outside of the LDS, leaving Scouting or reducing their support substantially.

In a way, this makes it almost a no-brainer on the Boy Scouts continued stand on the issue, as far as National is concerned. Even if they are getting beat up financially to some degree over the homosexual issue, the consequences of caving in would be much more dire than losing a few contributions that will eventually be made up elsewhere. Don't look for the Boy Scouts to change their mind on this issue - it is just not in the cards.