Axeman

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HaX0R2 rUL32!

1969 Pontiac GTO "Judge" w/Ram Air IV and a six-pack.

mbrown, I am guessing your eldest son is looking forward to certain MOS activities?

We drew 6th session at HRB. (sigh)

Middle son and youngest son are on staff again, and have been at HRB since last week. Youngest son (19) posted the following status on his Facebook yesterday (they go to Scott's for wifi):

"I bunk with (insects) and (spiders), the showers only go scalding hot or cold as ice, and I have worked and trained nonstop for 5 days. And most importantly, I'm home! Man I've missed it... Shout out to all of the campers and staff of H. Roe Bartle Scout Reservation!"

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

If it is interpreted as the first definition, then the district nominations are only open to the current district committee. This could lead to the district being run by the same clique year after year.

Yes, it certainly could lead to that.

Excerpt from a post dated 2/7/2008:

"District committees composed entirely of members-at-large may become myopic, self-perpetuating good-old-boy organisms that are not attuned to the needs/wants/desires of the units the committee is charged with supporting. The annual election process becomes farcical when the only attending, voting members are the same members-at-large that voted for themselves the year before. An election is the privilege of making a choice. If there is no choice, then the annual election is merely the endorsement of the status quo by the people who created the status quo."

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

Sirs:

I called National today.

Annual Charter Agreement #524-182 is the current boilerplate document printed by the Boy Scouts of America.

The annual charter agreement is an agreement between the local council and the chartering organization. Once the local council and the chartering organization are in agreement, the local council recommends a charter be issued to the organization. The Boy Scouts of America then issues the charter.

The local council may use the boilerplate document, or the local Council Executive Committee may draft their own annual charter agreement as long as the agreement does not violate the rules, regulations, policies, and procedures of the Boy Scout of America.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

Thank you for pointing this out, sir. I must reconsider my position, and, in doing so, feel that I will be much closer to understanding.

How about this-

The annual charter agreement, such as form 524-182, is an agreement between the local council and the chartering organization. Once the local council and the chartering organization are in agreement, the local council recommends a charter be issued to the organization. The Boy Scouts of America issues the charter.

The local council may use a standardized annual charter agreement, such as form 524-182, or the local council may use their own annual charter agreement as long as the agreement does not violate the rules, regulations, policies, and procedures of the Boy Scout of America. National does not preclude local councils from drafting their own document, however such documents are subject to approval by National.

Am I in the ballpark?

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

Click23:

Sir, let me say first that I agree with you. I believe the agreement to be between the local Council and the chartering organization. I wrote the same thing yesterday then deleted it.

The annual charter agreement also states "The Boy Scouts of America is an educational resource program. It charters community or religious organizations or groups to use Scouting as part of their service to their own members, as well as the community at large." If the pronoun it refers to the Boy Scouts of America, one might think that the charter comes from the Boy Scouts of America.

Clear as mud. Who writes/reviews these documents (rhetorical question)?

I have nine annual charter agreements before me:

28-182L

28-182M

28-182N

28-182P

28-182Q

28-182R

28-182S

524-182

and our current annual charter, which is similar to document from the Erie Shores Council.

Although all nine charters are similar, no two are identical. I have come to think that the annual charter agreement between our local Council and our organization is whatever the local Council says it is, as long as the agreement does not violate the rules, regulations, policies, and procedures of the Boy Scouts of America.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

Is a District an entity unto itself?

IMHO, this is something of a tricky question.

If we define an entity as something that has a distinct, separate existence (not necessarily a material existence), then a District may be viewed as an entity. A District is not entitative, however. A District does not exist apart from attendant circumstances. Districts are administrative subdivisions of the local council and do not have a separate corporate status.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

In my previous post I should have written "our present charter agreement includes, word-for-word, the changes noted by click23."

AFAIK, the Annual Charter Agreement No. 524-182 (2009 printing) is the most recent agreement between the council and the chartered organization to operate a pack, troop, or crew. I can not say with certainty that this is the agreement currently available from the National Distribution Center. I can say that I easily found five different versions of the annual charter agreement on the internet: No.28-182L, No.28-182Q, No.28-182R, No.28-182S, and No.524-182. All five are similar in format, and all five contain similar information under "The chartered organization agrees to" and "The council agrees to" headings. In all five there are six bullet points in the left column, seven bullet points in the right column.

Our annual charter agreement has eight bullet points in the left column and nine bullet points in the right column. The revised and additional bullet points read as noted by click23.

I compared the charter agreement from the Erie Shores Council to our charter agreement. The two documents are very similar. The two documents are not identical. There are differences in grammar, punctuation, and layout. Our charter agreement appears to be locally produced.

I read through the Charter and Bylaws & Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America this morning (yawn) and did not find anything that prohibits local councils from generating their own versions of the annual charter agreement. It is possible that I missed something.

It is the considered opinion of SWMBO that I should not pursue this line of inquiry with our council professional staff. I think that this is sage advice (I ask too many questions), yet I am still curious about this.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

I pulled our charter agreement from 2007. Our 2007 charter agreement (No. 28-182Q) is a different document. The 2008-to-present charter agreements include, word-for-word, the changes noted by click23.

The newer documents also feature Council-specific image and text.

Curiouser and curiouser. I will ask our DE about it.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

I have 2009's Annual Charter Agreement in my desk and it reads the same. IIRC, the charter agreement changed from the previous format to the current format in 2008.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

My ticket-completion counseling session was on Jan. 5, 2010.

I received my WB recognition items on March 2, 2010.

The date on the certificate is Feb. 1, 2010.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

I am not in John's district. My district adjoins John's district.

In our council, wearing district insignia is common. I do not think it is a matter of instruction. I think it is a convention in our council, like wearing Mic-O-Say and OA lanyards.

Personally, I do not wear district insignia.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

I realized that my previous post was itself an excerpt. Oops.

Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America

Article IX, Policies and Definitions

Section 1

Declaration of Religious Principle

Policies

Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

Activities

Clause 2. The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, "Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

Freedom

Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.

Leaders

Clause 4. Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.

Clause 5. Other major policies are set forth in article IX of the Rules and Regulations.

DEFINITIONS

SECTION 2.

In addition to those contained in these Bylaws, there are other definitions, some pertaining to the Bylaw material, set forth in article IX of the Rules and Regulations.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

An excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle appears on adult applications. Why an excerpt instead of the full text of the DRP?

Charter and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America

Article IX, Policies and Definitions

Section 1

Declaration of Religious Principle

Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

I'm sure it was just a little mix-up, no big deal. Yesterday it felt like a bucket of cold water to the face; today I'm very embarrassed to have written the post. It was hochmut. Not my finest hour.

Thank you all!

Axeman

CR/UC

I used to be a Beaver...

I guess this means I completed the course, so I'll just go with what Twocub said and consider it a win.

Thanks!

After working my Wood Badge ticket for 15 months I had my Beading Ceremony last night! It was a such a unique experience I thought I would share:

Last night was our District commissioners meeting & Roundtable. The commissioners meet @ 6:30 PM, followed by Roundtable @ 7:30 PM.

I'm in the commissioners meeting, listening to the Dist. Commish talk, taking notes, etc. The District Committee Chair is wandering around passing out our 2010 membership cards, and one of our Dist. Executives was meandering about distributing various paperwork (training bulletins and other stuff). As the Dist. Exec. walks by me he drops a white 9" x 12" envelope on the table and moves on. I glanced at it (it had a label with my name on it) but I did not open it since the Dist. Commish was making a point and I was trying to pay attention.

During a break in the action I opened the envelope. Inside was:

1. 1 Wood Badge necker- WD BDGE TAR 46 IN (65% polyester, 35% cotton) WPL 12681 Made in China

2. 1 Wood Badge woggle- Made in Thailand

3. 1 Beads Wood Badge 2 Bead Cat# 02175

4. 1 Wood Badge certificate BSA #34121 (2008 printing)

Holy smoke, it was my Wood Badge stuff, still in the original plastic packaging, which makes it even more valuable to collectors!

It really didn't hit me until today- that was my Beading Ceremony! Wasn't that unique?

I hope it was unique.

Axeman

CR/UC

Just a thought, your mileage may vary:

Instead of inviting CORs to the district committee meetings (yawn), convince the district commissioner to invite the CORs to the monthly commissioners meetings. In my district, the commissioners meeting is conducted right before our monthly Roundtable. The information presented at the commissioners meeting is relevant, useful, and timely. There is also a different vibe at the commissioners meeting; there is a sense of camaraderie. People actually seem to enjoy attending.

In my district, meetings of the district committee consist of sub committee chairs reading reports to each other. In many cases these reports are generated by the district professional staff mere hours, if not minutes, before the meeting. I once attended a district committee meeting that was so boring a DE actually fell asleep. This makes it a hard sell to the CORs.

Unfortunately, it will probably be an even harder sell convincing the Key 3 to engage the CORs this way. Active, involved CORs might just lead to control of district and council by the chartering organizations.

"The council is a grassroots organization in that there are more CORs than council members at large. So the control of the council belongs to the chartered organizations." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR/04.aspx

ROFLMAO!

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

"So does he or she wear the Silver or Green?"

I wear the loops appropriate to the position patch I am currently wearing. I am registered in a Pack (blue), a Troop (red or green), and as a CR and UC (silver). Velcro is wonderful. Applied correctly, the position patch does not stand off the uniform noticeably.

"If the COR wears silver tabs, wouldn't he also NOT wear a unit number?"

Technically, the CR does not wear unit identification (numbers). Depends on how closely one wants to adhere to uniforming standards. For example, many scouters wear District insignia on their uniform, yet District insignia is not authorized for wear on the uniform.

IHMO, the charter organization representative is one of the least understood and under-utilized positions in Scouting, right up there with the position of unit commissioner. In fact, if one makes a line-by-line comparison between the various responsibilities of the CR and the UC, one finds that the two positions are essentially identical, albeit from different sides of the table.

Unfortunately, the CR and UC also share the same failing- there is no expectation of performance from either. In a perfect world all UCs would make that one unit visit a month. In a perfect world all CRs would vote at the annual council business meeting. In the real world...

"What is the difference between a UFO and a (CR/UC)?"

"Some people have actually seen a UFO!"

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

We have walked this trail before. We will arrive at the same destination.

With the utmost respect toward those who disagree, I continue to believe that the COR is not a unit scouter. I offer the following references in support:

Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Article VIII, Section 1, Clause 2:

"Unit Scouters. All adult members registered with the unit, except the chartered organization representative who shall be considered a council Scouter."

If the rules and regulations of the BSA say that the COR is "considered a council scouter," I believe that the COR is a council scouter. I also offer the following:

Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Article VI, Section 3, Clause 7:

"In territory supervised by local councils, each chartered organization shall appoint a volunteer, other than the unit leader or assistant unit leader, as its chartered organization representative to represent it as a member of the district committee and as a voting member of the local council."

Annual Charter Agreement, BSA No. 28-182R:

Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will coordinate all unit operations within it. He or she will represent the organization to the Scouting district and serve as a voting member of the local council.

As a council scouter, the chartered organization representative wears the silver shoulder loops of a council scouter rather than the red or dark green shoulder loops of a unit scouter.

The chartered organization representative represents the chartering organization at the council and district level, rather than the units the organization sponsors. Again, I do not dispute the CORs responsibility of supporting the organization's units, and acting as liaison. These are certainly within the seventeen "tasks" of the COR listed on page 7 of BSA publication #33118D. I simply dispute the assertion that the COR is a unit scouter, an assertion often expressed by the members-at-large that typically control the BSAs councils and districts.

If I have overlooked something that states the chartered organization representative is a unit scouter, please excuse my error.

Regards,

Axeman

CR/UC

BadenP:

With respect, the COR is not a unit-level scouter.

Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Article VI, Section 3, Clause 7:

"In territory supervised by local councils, each chartered organization shall appoint a volunteer, other than the unit leader or assistant unit leader, as its chartered organization representative to represent it as a member of the district committee and as a voting member of the local council."

Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, Article VIII, Section 1, Clause 2:

"Unit Scouters. All adult members registered with the unit, except the chartered organization representative who shall be considered a council Scouter."

The Chartered Organization Representative, BSA publication #33118D, page 8 (paraphrased):

The chartered organization representative is the chartering organization's "voice" on the Council and District committee. Most District committees meet monthly on a set date. This enables the chartered organization representative (COR), and the organization the COR represents, to take advantage of available District service.

Annual Charter Agreement, BSA No. 28-182R:

Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will coordinate all unit operations within it. He or she will represent the organization to the Scouting district and serve as a voting member of the local council.

The chartered organization representative wears the silver shoulder loops of a council scouter rather than the red shoulder loops of a unit scouter.

The chartered organization representative represents the chartering organization at the council and district level, rather than the units the organization sponsors. I do not dispute the CORs responsibility of supporting the organization's units, and acting as liaison. These are certainly within the seventeen "tasks" of the COR listed on page 7 of BSA publication #33118D.

On topic, I have never encountered a youth member at a meeting of the District committee.

I was waiting for someone else to address this. My views on the subject (under a different username) resulted in a fair bit of trouble for me in my district and council. Once bitten, twice shy.

...my question is whether or not our experience is typical or atypical? Your experience is typical.

Are charter orgs usually involved with their units(?) No.

Is the chartered organization rep engaged with the unit? No.

Do reps usually come to committee meetings or other unit events? No.

Why? Because there is no expectation of performance from the CO & CR.

YMMV

Axeman

CR/UC

We had a staffer dressed in a monkey suit walking around camp on the second weekend, but she was only about 5'9"

We were also required to include a 360 assessment.

an aside- now would be a good time to change your forum password, sir.