Jon M

Thanks, ScoutNut, for the reply and the clarification regarding advancement, den structure, etc.

Regarding den#'s: Just figured since the uniform inspection sheet in the DL Handbook showed a position for den numerals they might be more than just a suggestion(http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34282.pdf).

Withdrew my application from that pack anyway and have been in contact with a few others in the area. Will be visiting a few in the weeks to come. Had a very nice conversation with a CM from another pack and will be visiting there next week.

I understand that some might be facing financial challenges and certainly didn't intend to offend anybody. The DL in question, however, is gainfully employed and manages to drive a rather expensive and relatively new vehicle. It would appear in this case anyway that the tattered clothing was more of a fashion statement than a result of economic challenge. This is a poor decision for an adult to make when acting in a leadership role regarding children. Although in itself it is not terribly significant it does leave you wondering about the DL's ability to make decisions that might be significant.

Here are a few concrete examples. Before we completely left this particular Pack/Den there was an outing to a local forest preserve scheduled. Essentially the Den meeting was to be held there. Guess what? DL failed to pass out consent forms nor did she file a local tour permit (or annual tour permit). Poor planning. Bad decision.

For Feats of Skill DL forgot a ball and suggested that the cubs use a rock to throw back and forth. Let's encourage the scouts to throw rocks! Poor planning. Bad decision.

-Jon

To EJCrimmins:

Hello and thanks for the comments. I am not fixating on Den Numbers or anything but was just a bit concerned when the DL had no idea what it was since one had apparently been assigned.

Although to be honest I actually do see merit in using an actual den number since a den might have new cubs without rank, bobcats, and wolves. Is this a wolf den? I find that it might be easier to just say this is Den 123. It lends fully inclusive cohesion to the group reminding them that although in one regard they are at different levels in another they are all still members of the same small group - Den 123 (or whatever that might be).

IMHO having no den number might be something like not having an actual team name for High School sports teams but instead just calling them the Varsity Baseball Team, The Varsity Hockey Team, The Varsity Basketball Team, etc. Just seems kinda weird to me

To Lisabob:

Thanks Lisabob - you are correct. It is not the actual school district but the PTL of that particular district.

You've provided some useful insight regarding the DE. I do appreciate that.

And yes, I do believe that that we will be looking for another pack sooner rather than later.

To Greaves:

The disregard for wearing the uniform (both cubs and leaders) is confusing to me as well. Although it takes more than just wearing the uniform to make a scout it does take a scout to wear the uniform.

As far as the CM and the DL's not wearing uniforms I can tell you that the first evening we showed up for Fall Scouting Night it was difficult to discern parent from leader since nobody was in uniform. Should have read the writing on the wall then, huh? Oh well. Live and learn I suppose.

Thank you all for your comments!

-Jon

Thanks, shortridge, for the advice. I will locate conact info for the DC.

The problems with this particular pack transcend not knowing den numbers, not wearing uniforms, and running amock in the gymnasium. These are merely signs or indicators that serve to suggest the existence of larger problems.

CM and DL's not being in uniform, for example, is something that I am not accustomed to but could get past if the clothing they wore instead was neat and tidy. At last week's pack meeting the DL had on a rather well worn sweatshirt and faded blue-jeans with holes in both knees. If one does not have enough self-respect to be neat and tidy what level of respect do you suppose they might have for others?

What happened to leadership by example? What happened to the promise to do one's best (ripped jeans - Is that really the best you can do)? Like I said, these seemingly little things are indicative of a more pervasive reality impacting the overall dynamic of the group and its potential for successfully modeling, suggesting, developing, and/or encouraging those qualities and situations determined to result in a scout of "good character".

Just my two-cents

Thanks to all who replied! First I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't coming in to this whole thing with inflated and unrealistic expectations. My sense now is that I most certainly wasn't.

To Jet526:

I mispoke. It is not a combined Wolf/Bear Den - just a Wolf Den. So I guess they at least have that part right. At the beginning of next month I am attending a day-long "The Next Step" training session hosted by the local council and intend to spend some time getting to know other pack leaders from the area in an effort to perhaps identify an alternative to the chaos we have experienced so far.

To Lisabob:

Thanks for your reply. You are right in that it is a tricky situation. I do have time to dedicate as a volunteer but not massive amounts (maybe 10-15 hours a week). My wife is with me all the way on this as she would like nothing more than my son to have a great scouting experience.

We selected this pack because it was suggested to us by the District Executive and its Charter Organization is the local school district.

The current CM has held this position for at least 10 years, he is also the Cub Scout trainer for the district, and he is very passive and casual. He doesn't seem to think there are any problems with the way things are going and has told me that things usually are slow to start. The problem with this theory is that even the Dens having more experienced scouts, like the Webelo Den for example, are just as disorganized.

I have some time to dedicate to this but do not want to throw it away trying to repair something that does not want to be repaired. I have attempted to make a few suggestions to the DL but those were not met favorably.

A very simple example of this involves the Den number. The DL (at least her 2nd year) didn't know the den number when asked. She said it wasn't important and to just know the pack number. This brought questions to light regarding uniforms since there should be a den patch, right? She said that they don't really worry about uniforms either and in so many words said that if my son wore one to meetings that would be fine but he might be odd man out. Uniforms aside I suggested that it might be useful for the cubs to know their den number so when calling them all together you could simply say something like, "OK, Den #, line up over here". She did not react well to this suggestion and became somewhat defensive.

I think that we will look for a new pack.

To Jamist649:

Thanks for the input. The Pack has been around for a while (at least 10 years). I haven't yet spoken to any "veteran" parents although I haven't seen any either. The 2nd and 3rd year scouts seem to just get dropped off and then picked up at some point so getting their input might be difficult. The DL for the Bear Den doesn't seem altogether pleased with the way things are however he doesn't seem terribly motivated to do anything about it either. The majority of his cubs do wear uniforms to pack meetings but he likes the "go run around in the gym" theme of the pack meetings an even encourages his 12 or 13 year-old daughter to join in.

I like to consider myself a positive and optimistic person but I do have a hard time believing that any of this will transform into something better.

To BadenP:

Sadly I think that you might be right. I want to help. I want to make things better. But you are correct that this has probably been going on for quite sometime now and will be difficult if next to impossible to change.

I think that a new pack is in our future. I just feel bad for the Cubs and Webelos that will remain in that pack. I can't help but feel that they will really be missing out on something special.

To ChaiAdventure:

Thanks for sharing your experience and for the encouragement! I do believe that I will begin to look for a new pack. My son is excited and motivated and I do not want to lose the momentum! I will definitely plan on being as involved as they will let me be once we find a new pack.

To John-in-KC:

Thanks for the reply. I have already completed Fast Start for both CM and DL; I completed Youth Protection Training; and am enrolled in position specific training (not sure yet if for CM or DL) at the "Next Steps" training hosted by the local council. One of the problems here is that the CM for the pack in question is also the Cub Scout Trainer for the District and he will be "teaching" some of the position specific sessions. That should be interesting!

Hopefully there I will get an opportunity to meet the CM's of the other packs, and DL's, in the area and put together somewhat of a short-list of Packs/Dens that I would like to consider as possibilities and visit.

For sure feedback will be given. Like I mentioned I have had sort of an ongoing email conversation with the District Executive. The DE seems receptive but I just recently moved from alluding to problems to actually spelling them out. That email, sent a few days ago, is yet to be answered.

To ALL:

I can't thank all enough who took the time to reply and offer comments and suggestions. My main question has been definitively answered - at present this is NOT how things are supposed to be. This at least makes me comfortable that I am not leaping to conclusions or levying unrealistic expectations on the Pack based on a romanticism of my scouting experience as a youth.

I will for sure follow up after I have had the opportunity to meet with CM's and DL's from different packs.

Thanks again!

-Jon

Hello! I am new to the forum and new to Scouting (as a parent, anyway). My son recently joined the Wolf/Bear Den within the local pack and was initially very excited to do so.

As a youth I spent many years in scouting and have nothing but grand memories and oftentimes hilarious stories to tell when asked about my experiences as a scout (1980's). Naturally my son expected something at least remotely similar to what I had experienced and consequently had described to him.

Unfortunately the first Den meeting was an eye-opener for both me and my son. The Den Leader did not have any component of a uniform on at all and to make matters worse was wearing blue-jeans with holes in both knees. I am not sure exactly how long that she has been the DL but this is at least her 2nd year. When asked for the Den number she said that she didn't know and that it really didn't matter anyway! When asked about uniforms she said that they really don't worry about that sort of thing and most of the boys don't wear them. She went on to explain that the only thing they might need a uniform for would be if they won the pinewood derby at the pack level and moved on to competition in the district.

The Den meetings are disorganized, the DL usually arrives late and without materials, and because she did not bring a ball actually wanted to substitute a rock for the ball toss in the Wolf Cub "Feats of Skill" requirement!!! Generally the den meetings consist of the boys running wildly without purpose or adult direction in the gym.

The pack meetings aren't any better. This month the CM didn't even wear a uniform and he is the Cub Scout Trainer for the District and has been CM for at least 10 years! Sure, they begin with color guard, announcements, and then off to the gym for more running and yelling. No theme; no continuity; no organization.

I know that it can be easier to criticize than it can be to help so I am making an effort to assist and have been in contact with the Cubmaster (who seems just as disorganized as the DL). The CM has told me to be patient that sometimes things are slow to get started. I have been reading everything that I can about den meetings, pack meetings,have submitted an Adult App for Membership, have completed "Fast Start" for Wolf/Bear DL and for CM, Youth Protection Training, and am registerd for "The Next Step" training hosted by the council at the beginning of next month.

In addition I have been in email contact with the District Executive. I have alluded to some of the shortcomings however I have yet to speak plainly about my discontent.

Since we are working through the requirements at home my son earned "Bobcat" and is excited and proud but at the same time he is still dissapointed and put off by the chaos. He is quickly losing interest in scouting, and I am irritated, upset, frustrated . . . .

My initial questions (although I am sure to have others) are these: Is this typical? Is this what scouting has become? Should I try and help this pack or am I setting myself up for continued frustration (is the whole district this way)? Would it be best to write this pack off and move on to another?

Obviously these questions cannot be answered definitively however any constructive comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!