johnmbowen

Hi guys,

In reply to OGE's original post, which I agree with, here is a solution that our Troop has done...(may have said this before). The rules state that for non-formal wear such as on outings where the uniform shirt, pants, etc. are really a safety issue (especially for high adventure, but not so much for a Scout camp) you can do a Troop shirt. We got poly zip t-neck shirts from Sierra Trading Post (tell them you are a Scout unit!! The owners are Scout supporters) and had the Troop number embroidered on the collar. The kids like these and they are actually useful in the outdoors as the high tech fabric passes moisture to the outside like a reasonable outdoor shirt. (NO one who is a serious outdoorsman uses shirts like the BSA uniform shirts in the outdoors outside of the BSA...does that tell you something?)

Our friend who does the embroidery also put on a neat mountaineering logo for us, but I think in the future we will just go with the fleur-de-lis and number on the collar.

I don't know without asking, but our friend might be convenced to do more embroidery? I can ask if anyone is interested.

I have also heard rumors that Boy's Life may be dropping the requirement that all Scouts seen in the magazine pictures wear full Scout uniforms. We had a real problem with this when we were doing high altitude climbing (which we hope will appear in BL later in the year) where Scout uniforms are a real safety problem...ie they are NOT safe for anything having to do with outdoor activities, in my opinion, except for Scout Camps, Camporees, etc where the emphasis is not in a real outdoor situation where ones well being is enhanced by the right equipment. The uniforms as done present...again in my opinion...are an invitation to hypothermia in cold or wet environments, and are also not good in very hot weather. You are right OGE!

Take it as you may!

JB

Hi guys,

In reply to OGE's original post, which I agree with, here is a solution that our Troop has done...(may have said this before). The rules state that for non-formal wear such as on outings where the uniform shirt, pants, etc. are really a safety issue (especially for high adventure, but not so much for a Scout camp) you can do a Troop shirt. We got poly zip t-neck shirts from Sierra Trading Post (tell them you are a Scout unit!! The owners are Scout supporters) and had the Troop number embroidered on the collar. The kids like these and they are actually useful in the outdoors as the high tech fabric passes moisture to the outside like a reasonable outdoor shirt. (NO one who is a serious outdoorsman uses shirts like the BSA uniform shirts in the outdoors outside of the BSA...does that tell you something?)

Our friend who does the embroidery also put on a neat mountaineering logo for us, but I think in the future we will just go with the fleur-de-lis and number on the collar.

I don't know without asking, but our friend might be convenced to do more embroidery? I can ask if anyone is interested.

I have also heard rumors that Boy's Life may be dropping the requirement that all Scouts seen in the magazine pictures wear full Scout uniforms. We had a real problem with this when we were doing high altitude climbing (which we hope will appear in BL later in the year) where Scout uniforms are a real safety problem...ie they are NOT safe for anything having to do with outdoor activities, in my opinion, except for Scout Camps, Camporees, etc where the emphasis is not in a real outdoor situation where ones well being is enhanced by the right equipment. The uniforms as done present...again in my opinion...are an invitation to hypothermia in cold or wet environments, and are also not good in very hot weather. You are right OGE!

Take it as you may!

JB

Hi guys,

In reply to OGE's original post, which I agree with, here is a solution that our Troop has done...(may have said this before). The rules state that for non-formal wear such as on outings where the uniform shirt, pants, etc. are really a safety issue (especially for high adventure, but not so much for a Scout camp) you can do a Troop shirt. We got poly zip t-neck shirts from Sierra Trading Post (tell them you are a Scout unit!! The owners are Scout supporters) and had the Troop number embroidered on the collar. The kids like these and they are actually useful in the outdoors as the high tech fabric passes moisture to the outside like a reasonable outdoor shirt. (NO one who is a serious outdoorsman uses shirts like the BSA uniform shirts in the outdoors outside of the BSA...does that tell you something?)

Our friend who does the embroidery also put on a neat mountaineering logo for us, but I think in the future we will just go with the fleur-de-lis and number on the collar.

I don't know without asking, but our friend might be convenced to do more embroidery? I can ask if anyone is interested.

I have also heard rumors that Boy's Life may be dropping the requirement that all Scouts seen in the magazine pictures wear full Scout uniforms. We had a real problem with this when we were doing high altitude climbing (which we hope will appear in BL later in the year) where Scout uniforms are a real safety problem...ie they are NOT safe for anything having to do with outdoor activities, in my opinion, except for Scout Camps, Camporees, etc where the emphasis is not in a real outdoor situation where ones well being is enhanced by the right equipment. The uniforms as done present...again in my opinion...are an invitation to hypothermia in cold or wet environments, and are also not good in very hot weather. You are right OGE!

Take it as you may!

JB

Well, this is the crux of the problem with any Scout organization, the lack of living up to the promise of what the kids see in the handbooks, and on the ads on TV. The problem is not with the fact that these kids cannot be trained to do just aobut any kind of outdoor activity, it is in the local parents and masters who do.

I have long trained my BSA Troop in all aspects of high adventure. They run their own rafts on Class III water, climb, backpack, and do it all, even to high altitude (>14000 ft) ice and snow mountaineering. Even the 11 year olds learn boatmanship, and technical climbing, right away...and guess what, it works. We have trouble getting rid of them when they turn 18.

But I have been spouting this litany for months. It will work with girls as well as boys. They will learn well what they are interested in. Why doesn't Scouting hack it? Well, the answer lies in why does my Troop have to put up with a hostile round table? Because of a bunch of adults who dress in little kids uniforms and think that is what is important. They and are not receptive to help from outside, from people who would help, but are either not asked or are turned away due to arrogance, or to the sometimes apalling lack of outdoors acumin. Change the adults' attitudes, and you will change the character of Scouting all for the better. Most adults involved DO have their hearts in the right place, but good grief, go out and learn more about the outdoors, become a master of even one aspect that you will actually do WITHOUT kids, and you will be ahead. Use those people you find in the outdoors to help you.

At present, the GSA has little to offer girls in the outdoors, so Venture is usually it for them. So be it. They will go where they can to get what Scouting promises but seldom delivers. Younger Venture...well I have done that for 10 years but havn't called it that. Yeah it works too. Well, thats my advice. Learn a 'hard core' (or even a soft core) outdoor skill and teach it to your Troop. Teach all the technical and safety stuff too. They CAN handle it, and they love it. Well, enough of a tirade for tonight.

HI guys, great comments.

Too true about the point of the BSA from Bob. However, as Quixote said, a very fast way to achieve it is through the outings. This works extremely well with our little Troop.

One thing that le Voyager has well stated is the increasing bureaucracy that may or may not be required for running these trips. Sure we have highly padded resumes for this kind of thing, but these certifications also pose a big problem...perhaps an unsurmountable activation barrier to the goal of doing the outings for the average Scoutmaster or Assistant. If we get too specialized, maybe our place is only at the "high adventure camps" where only those with bucks can get it there.

Somewhere in these threads, I saw mentioned the 'Powderhorn' system which may or may not achieve the goals he set. However, I remember that it was a long course and the closest to me was San Francisco...which is not even close. With my program going, I am not really interested in further certification anyway, unless the bureaucracy forces me to get it. I feel I have already paid my dues, and have spent 30 years getting to where I am now. What do I have to prove to BSA? Like le Voyager, I have been turned down by Scouters who may think I am just another blowhard, making me not wish to ask them twice, which I don't.

Well, this is why this is such a hard thing to figure out. We can kill kids if we're not careful, but perhaps another way may be found? Something that can rapidly spread the benefits of HA to as many groups as possible.

Well, perhaps a suggestion...One method that I have used very effectively is to make people who are already expert in a recreational skill into an ASM and call them a "specialist" meaning that the only time we call on them is when the Scouts want to train for and go on that kind of trip. How do I know that they are qualified?? Well, I am in an enviable position...I cheat. I just go on a climb or trip with them a couple of times and size them up. Then if the thought of working with boys doesn't make them twitch...I ask them. Yes, we do go through some specialized training with them, but we try not to burden them. I realize that this will probably not work for everyone.

...so here is the hard part.

Buckets of certifications to satisfy the organizations (and from what I have seen, surely needed)

...or...smething else. But, is the something else leading to danger? Nothing beats extensive training, exhaustive planning and good qualifications.

(well, this is why they pay us the big bucks)

JB

Good Point Bob.

Of course all of my Scout boatmen (the older guys) are trained with the same curriculum as my professional guides. They all have this specialized safety and rescue training. All of the Scouts that go on these trips do pass the swim tests, are trained in some swiftwater safety before they can go (they get real interested in learning in order to get to go) as well. Included in the training are extensive throw bag experience, scenarios, and even a requirement for the boatmen...to successfully swim a rapid (and be targets for the throwbag rescuers).

In order to do this kind of stuff a great deal of training and learning is required. I use as many "outside" experts as possible (who get listened to more than me), and this helps fill in the gaps in the meetings. The Scouts tend to want to attend the meetings so they can get at the instruction (...well, mostly). We also concentrate hard on first aid, with scenarios (a holdover from WFA) to meet the requirements of our outings schedule. It takes lots of time, but the kids seem to eat it up, and seldom question the why of doing this preparation. We also cover the items that are required for advancement within this training.

The point of requiring the BSA training, minimal as it is, seems apparent when working with other Troops that come along with ours.

Mike Long has brought up a good topic that I really would like to address. These are the BSA requirements for Safety Afloat in general. One requirement is that a qualified BSA Lifeguard be on board on a rafting trip. Our Troop hads a competitive swimmer who ran through this to become a BSA Lifeguard to fulfill this reqirement, and here is the point...what good is he. BSA Lifeguard does not address swiftwater.

Of course I trained my guy (more than the others) in swift water safety, rescue etc geared toward river rescue, but if not trained in this specialty, he would be worse than useless! A boy trained in the BSA Life Guard would be prone to performing a rescue geared toward flat water in a very dangerous situation which would basically create two victims that the boatman would have to deal with.

The point is that the BSA requirements in this case not only don't make since, but can become a danger. While I think that it is a good idea to have these programs including Life Guard, Safety Afloat, Climb on Safety etc., it is wise to realize that they are there to impart what BSA would like to include...but they have, due to inexperience with practically any type of high adventure missed the mark as usual. I believe that the top executives will have to be educated concerning good intentions and poor design...any thoughts?

As to looking for expertise, it really depends on where you live. I would assume that in CA that there would be a large Private Boater's Association in the state. I would be glad to investigate. One physical method would be to ask around at a White Water Rafting store that sells rafts...find out who the privates are. Alternatively, do ask an outfitter about whitewater training. They might make up a special class for training in the SLOW season especially for you. I do know that some CA outfitters offer "guide training" meaning that you train along with their guides for the same price. This would be valuable training for starting your own program. (Remember start highly prepaired and go very conservatively...the kids will enjoy mild rivers if they are taught to do it themselves).

I guess that if someone local can't be found that I would be interested in helping to run a teaching whitewater course for Scouters if costs can be split.

I would also like to hear some opinions on liability, finding out if someone you have contacted can do what they say, and real safety instruction. I got my swiftwater rescue from Canyonlands Field Inst. via Barry Sadler (NPS Ranger).

Other outfits abound including Rescue 1.

Good...hit a nerve. This is a real gripe with me as well.

To answer Bob, I am fully aware that not all Troops are capable of buying rafts, or other gear...DONT. Our Troop is not capable either, I even have to help some kids with money just to come on outings. With my help in looking through newspapers though, they bought one used raft, frame and oars. However, that is not the point. The point is that the High Adventure should be taught to the Scouts such that they can actually do the trip when they later want to go. A lasting legacy, not just a badge.

What is important is if you DONT have the resources within the Troop...Find them! Ask them, and they will come. As Le Voyager stated, there are people out there who can help, and will...if only you will ask them! My outdoor buddies and I have helped our Troop become the bug High Adventure power house that they are now, and we would not have been able to offer what we have without their help. Only after nearly 10 years are our own Scout graduates taking over with high adventure training. One works at the local climbing gym, and the other is a whitewater guide. They led a trip to Moab for the new Scouts last month featuring mountain biking and climbing...GOLD!

Le Voyager also mentioned a disturbing trend that I have also encountered when volunteering what outdoor expertise I have outside my local area...NO INTEREST. Arrogance? (I think so.) I once volunteered to teach a Red Cross Certified Wilderness First Aid course to Scouts, parents and Scouters ONLY, only to have a 'Big Scouter' a nay-sayer, who had only briefly looked in at the class, state that this was only what the first aid merit badge taught, so why bother? (As a result of this and many other examples, I've decided not to do "advanced" Scouter training like wood badge...why bother?)

The moral?

The help is out there...don't be arrogant and don't be shy to ask if they dont wear a funny brown shirt. ASK THEM! (Maybe they won't notice that you wear a funny brown shirt). They have gear, they have expertise and experience, (usually more than you). They will help. They will teach. They worry about the next generation of outdoorsmen too.

Think outside the box.

Realize that there are people out there that do outdoors stuff all the time and at a level far higher than Boy Scouts. Look at Le Voyager's profile! Scouts are lucky to get him. An applicable story: In a conversation with a high adventure friend, who was also a USPS Ranger who when I mentioned I helped out a Scout Troop said, "We always cringe when a Scout Troop wants to come into the Park back country since a rescue might be emminant." (ie, poor preparation and expertise) The answer was given last year to the ASM leading our young kids on an easy top roped ice climb we do every spring when an SAR group at the same place on finding that they were Scouts asked, "Arn't you that good high adventure Troop? "Glad to meet you guys." (I'm not making this up...I have pictures)

I found them, I play with them and treasure their acquaintaince:

I have a friend and ASM Specialist who is a great vertical caver, NSS member...done sherpa duty in Lechaguilla.

Got another who is a high altitude climber...done Mt. Blanc, and a good 20 of the 50 classic climbs.

Have several who are professional rafters and private boaters who are thrilled to help out Boys who ask.

Several friends are rock climbers who range from good to human fly, and have been pleased to take along

Scouts, even to the International Climbers Festival.

They have all been CO-OPTED TO SCOUTING! (I get to go on their trips too.) (A quick note: After these guys get involved...they don't need to be bribed! They too have helped monitarily to make sure some of the poorer Scouts can come on the trips they support, they pay their own gas, and have NEVER asked for a free ride, so pleased they have been to share their expertise with the next generation.)

If there is no one you know...ask around. The rest comes with it.

You don't have to buy your expertise, nor their equipment, and they are often glad to share. (unless they have been burned by Big Scouters.)

The look on the face of the 11 year old who has just successfully run his first Class II will tell you the

right answer. The realization that the 18 yr old that just became your ASM and wants to lead the oldest boys

to climb Devil's Tower, and you know that he can do it safely...as he has done it twice before is success.

OK so the next bit...What about BSA certification, real expertise and help, liability, and being responsible for yourself???

This is from the end of the Co-Ed Scout question which started talking about rafting as a high adventure draw to keep Scouts going.

I am a big believer in what the Scouts call High Adventure meaning most any trip not to a Scout Camp or next to cars. Trips like this, in my experience, are what the Scouts really want. OK advancement is part of the ethos too, but the reward is often the outdoor activity. High Adventure retains the kids as they grow older. They crave it and would treasure the technical skills enabling them to duplicate these events themselves.

So here is the problem, and it is perhaps one of presentation, what you want the Scouts to see and do about these High Adventure trips.

Not all Troops have the capability of easily mounting climbing, rafting, mountaineering tripsthey kind of events that are liberally illustrated in the Handbook, and on those glitzy ads on TVlike the Scout a pendulum line on a rock face who has retrieved a rock climbers billfold. So what do they dosay for raftingthey go the way Corporate America wants them to gothey BUY IT, and go as mere tourists. Clients of professionals, rather than as a full participant. A tourist who is taken along, pampered, and who pays for admission like at Disney Land. It is all safe and sound, someone else is to blame if things go wrong, and the Scout is given the idea that this is the ONLY way to experience High Adventure. This even extends to the more common Scouting experience of going to a High Adventure Scout Camp for this experience, including Boundary Waters or Philmont where you are provided with most of the amenities.

Is that the behavior we want to demonstrate to our Scouts. Do you want to teach them to be a tourist, or an outdoorsman?

Me, I am for the outdoorsman. Leave them with a useful lifetime skill.

Not that I am against the use of professional guides, I am one, and part owner in a rafting/climbing company. I know from experience that a raft trip on Class IV (which believe it or not is usually Class III but the guides tell you different) for a kid is NOT as good as a trip where he actually learns to RUN the boat on even Class II. Learning and doing real climbing on real rocks is far preferable to most Scouts than going to some gym where the experts teach you. Teach them to DO it so they can DO it THEMSELVES.

I say LEARN it dont BUY it. I think too many units Buy it.

Hi Folks,

TWO Things:

1. One reason that the co-ed stuff is popular is that the Girl Scouts often DO NOT provide the same amount of outdoor opportunities that is available in Boy Scouts! This seems to be the biggest gripe of girls that I have talked to. Fix that and there will not be a big problem.

ABOUT RIVERS

I am a long time rafter and river person which I have carried on to my Troop. We do this ourselves every year training our Scouts in all the skills necessary to run OUR OWN boats.

I would like to address (in another string) this disturbing trend amongst Scouters of thinking that they have to PAY someone to take their Troop on high adventure trips. LEARN IT YOURSELF or co-opt someone who can!

I will try to title the string with something appropriate like Buying a trip or Doing it yourself..or some such.

Later

JB

Le Voyager may be right. During the Fall and Spring I am in OK where no one cares!

However, during the summer I work for an outfitter who might be convenced to offer an intensive short course in an outdoor technical subject. I could ask about special prices for scouters. They might come up with a "certification" as well, though these seem to be based on the reputation of the company (like NOLS) or those who follow some set of guidelines established by a governing body. I do know that AMGA has a "certified" top rope class which a friend took. As for rafting, I don't think there is anyone who certifies, though ACA does canoe and maybe kayak instructors. One useful thing to have would be WFA or WFR though.

OR an alternative would be Mike's idea of setting one up ourselves on a given subject or set of them. I am good at mountaineering and rafting, and OK in climbing (especially top roped), but am shaky in canoeing and kayaking. I havn't backpacked in about 7 years and don't even know what the current equipment is like. We could talk about planning around problems for one.

Any ideas?

JB

HI guys, This is a bit off the original subject, but I thought I would like to ask if there would be interest in a program to train adult leaders in running high adventure trips such as climbing, mountaineering, white water canoeing and rafting, and maybe even backpacking?

JB

From long experience, I believe that the clothing doesn't matter. What matters is doing things. Adventure keeps kids young and old in the troop. If they get to go climbing or rafting, then they will wear the uniforms if they have to, even if they normally wouldn't. During meetings, we always have training sessions geared toward the next outing. If we are going backpacking, we talk about packs, packing them, adjusting them and what to take. The more technical the better they like it. Same for rafting and climbing.

JB

OOPS...sorry

Check out Sierra Trading Post www.sierratradingpost.com which sells seconds and closeouts on good name brand gear. Their owners are real Scout supporters. Also check out Campmor www.campmor.com which is also a discount house. Another good group is REI www.rei.com which is good. To see what REI used to look like get hold of MEC (Mountaineering Equipment Co-op of Canada) http://www.mec.ca/Main/home.jsp from which you get also the exchange rate difference. They have GREAT Gore Tex shells, fully exceeding North Face, in my considered opinion, and their logo doesn't cost nearly as much!

Our Troop is starting to get high tech Zip-T neck fleece or microfleece shirts which has the Troop number embroidered on the collar + hopefully a fleur de lis for our outside uniform. Get um cheap through Sierra Trading Post. I have heard rumors that National is dropping the photo requirement that Boy's Life has for full BSA uniforms for any group doing high adventure outings, so this is a good alternative.

When we go backpacking, I always insist on minimalism, light weight and above all, minimum impact. A perfect "model" campsite for our troop means one that has already been used and far enough from the trail not to have people observing you in camp...for both party's privacy. Second, we usually don't make any fire, unless we have an existing fire ring. If there are more than one in a small campsite, we re-habilitate them and consolidate them into one, using of course downed wood.

Each small patrol, 1-3 tents, cooks in the small space between the tents, usually lounging inside the tents (expecially nice in the rain). Bathroom duties are done in catholes (instruction is provided early in their Scout curiculum). Upon leaving, all traces are erased. That is a model camp!

HI ScouterPaul

Please try it! THat is why I mentioned it.

Though I have a lot of experience in several outdoor activities, I am not expert at all. For instance we have a fellow that is a great caver, and has played 'sherpa' in Lechaguilla, done vertical work etc. He is our caving 'ASM Specialist'. We have another who is a very good rock climber, and used to teach at a boy's camp in TX who is our climbing specialist. It doesn't hurt that he is also a professional whitewater guide also. Another one is an accomplished mountaineer. These last two guys helped our Scouts get to 18,300 feet on Pico de Orizaba in Jan.

Invaluable!

Since they don't have to be there all the time, they are always fresh and ready to go when asked to teach and help. I learn new things from them as well. They also end up holding the Scouts' attention better as the 'outside expert' when they wouldn't listen to you talk with equal authority about the same thing!

I really can't imagine why this isn't part of the usual BSA modus operindi!

Make sure that your specialists know what they talk about, and that they are there for the right reasons though. I learn this by going on a few trips with them by myself, having fun and checking out each other's expertise. They also want to know if they are dealing with a good group.

Good Luck and be safe.

JB

HI Momscouter

THe thread that holds the older boys there is the high adventure, the climbing etc. Once they become addicted to the events, they will do just about anything to keep them going, including hanging around the little kids.

I have 3 guys that turned 18 just recently, and 2 are now ASMs and the other helps out occassionally. One of them is highly involved in the technical outdoor training.

The formula for the high adventure deal is first to find what you can do in your area. Wyoming is prime for the stuff we do. Second, find practitioners of the activities you like who will be suitable to be co-opted into your Troop (the hard part). Third, for a short time period, have that person(s) to first teach the activity then go on the outing. After the outing, let them get back to their lives! We call our people like that ASM specialists, and we don't burn them out with all the weekly meetings, but involve them when we do the things they like and like to teach.

It has served us well.

By the way, should you like to come to Wyo and join us on an adventure let me know, and I can arrange it.

Though I don't know, I believe that the 'buck naked' sleeping business started with what Slontwovvy mentioned: Wet or damp clothes. I know for a fact (we are from Wyo) that sleeping with dry clothes on is much superior and warmer than without, but the key is dry.

We do as Slontwovvy says, have the boys carry a set of completely dry clothes for bed. Everything that was worn on the ski in is removed and replaced. That by itself is worth as much as the technical fabrics and insulations, etc. On short trips, we have them also to put the damp inner clothes under them in the sleeping bag so the heat transfer will push the moisture into the sleeping bag insulation (not for sopping clothes, or multi day trips as you can well imagine). Well sealed water bottles go in the sleeping bag too (we check these of course), and pee bottles of a different shape can be used to minimize heat loss at night. Have them wear a dry hat. These little additions plus what is above will do it all.

JB

Also check out Sierra Trading Post, who are big Scouting enthusiasts

We have a hard core high adventure Troop with several very popular outing types. XC Skiing, snow camp/caves, ski mountaineering in the winter with climbing, caving, mountain biking, rafting and backpacking in the rest of the year.

The way that we now do these is to say to the PLC or nearest equivalent (we are also a small troop) and ask, "what do you want to do?" This results in a 2-3 month plan (which can change, of course). At that point the older boys have to do the logistics of the trip, while the younger boys are trained in the activity, either by the older ones, or more usually by the ASMs or specialists in that activity.

One thing that really helps is the more or less fixed range of outings. The older guys know the drill for each type making the trips boy led having been trained in the technical aspects and worked in the logistics. Very seldom do we do other things, and when we do...well, the adults and the older crew have to work as a committee. This formula has taken the Troop on some pretty impressive adventures. Rafting, with the Scouts running their own boats, ski mountaineering, etc.

The key here is that we spent years training the generations in these types of trips. Not just the patrol leaders and SPL, but all the boys. Originally, this did involve making the boy leaders pick and choose, then spending lots of time training in logistics and the technical aspects of the trips at the same time. Now it is pretty much self sustaining, but one would have wondered six years ago when the ASMs and older boys, and some younger ones operated more like a committee. There was no whining about who was in charge, as they got to do what they thought were really neat things.

Careful training is the key. Once they are able to make a trip happen with a regular formula, then you can have all boy led events.

Here is another good link for hypothermia which might be of use.

http://www.win.net/~gws/gaelwolf/hpothrm.htm

For SCTMOM

For that kind of trip, the most important thing is to actually carry a first aid kit. For light hikes, the most common kind of first aid problem will be foot problems. Blisters (moleskin) possible sprained ankles (stretch bandages), sunburn (sunscreen), and a few bandaids. And of course the knowledge to apply them. A cell phone is also very nice and eliminates the use of runners to get help. Know who to call for each trip...ie the fastest way to connect to EMS. Knowledge is most important...take a Red Cross First Responder class. Second, plan ahead and play the "what-if" game to identify problems that might occur on your trip and tailor the behavior of your people so as to avoid problems. Also think of what your response to a crisis would be at various locations on your trip...what is the fastest way out...what can you handle, and when do you call for help. Be sure that your trip permit is in (for insurance) and that all participants are either part of your unit, or have signed a waiver...don't leave yourself open to lawsuit. Have a Standard Operating Proceedure (SOP) for your trip.

If you want to do a more exciting outing, go as assistant leader to learn the ropes, SOPs, and the techniques for fun and well planned trips. The goal is to go!

JB

Good Point!!

Getting dumped on any trip is dangerous, especially in cold water. I liked your post about first aid as well. We should all get on board to learn as much as possible regarding consequences of failure with Scouts in the wilderness.

Any more neat tips on Hypothermia, or caring for it?

These are very important and I cannot recommend these courses enough for all of us who take people into the outdoors!

I have taken WFR, which is good for 3 years for three times. They are expensive, but better than the alternative. I've not had the chance to get the WEMT though.

The usual Red Cross FR courses are all geared toward an event that happens in town, and what you learn is how to keep a victim comfortable and hopefully alive till EMS arrives. The WFR is a detailed class in what to do in the wilderness when you are on your own for however long it takes to get your victim to EMS, and the differences in the classes are enormous! For instance: What do you do to transport (or not) a victim with a broken leg, (or worse an impalation) on a backpack trip three days up the trail? What are the steps and places to help a helo to land? What are hypothermia remedies for a paddler in the wilderness when you are 30 miles from help? These are the questions that these courses answer.

Another possibility is to look for WFA or Wilderness First Aid which is sometimes offered through American Red Cross, but is less than the 120 hours to get the WFR usually running 16 or so hours. The WFA that I took also involved learning water based rescue and low and high angle rock rescue. Very applicable, and I have felt overprepaired (a very good feeling).

Any of us who take kids into the wilderness should have one, or should have a person along that has this kind of experience.

To date I've always managed to PLAN around or away from any potential problem which could have resulted in my having to use this knowledge (knock on wood) but the worst can happen at anytime, especially with youngsters.

Please spend the time to investigate these offerings and take the class. They are always interesting and could make the difference on one of your trips. The BSA first aid merit badge is just a bare introduction to what is really needed.

Here is an interesting and useful web listing concerning paddling and hypothermia.

http://www.capital.net/com/nckayak/nck_safety_p4.htm