jimswainbbmc

From the BSHB, 11th edition, 1998:

You may pass any of the requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and Fiest Class at any time. For example, if you fulfill a First Class requirement before you are a Second Class Scout, you may check off the First Class requirement as completed. Though you can advance at your own pace, active Scouts will usually earn First Class within a year of joining a troop.

Seems to me this puts the responsibility firmly in the hands of the Scout. The SM and other adults are there to provide guidance and support, as is addressed a few lines below:

The merit badge program provides you the opportunity to meet and work with adult leaders in your community.

Sometimes we need to look at the program from the boy's standpoint. The BSHB is the standard they go by. I often find myself making it a reference as well, because it helps me see what the boys expect.

(This message has been edited by jimswainbbmc) As far as the SM being in charge of advancement, the SM is responsible for the troop's advancement GOAL, which is relevant to analyzing the health of the troop. The SM does NOT choose MBs or set timelines for Scouts to advance. These activities are done by the Scout within BSA guidelines, i.e. having to be First Class for four months prior to becoming Star Scout.(This message has been edited by jimswainbbmc)

Acco -

Didn't realize it was an OVERNIGHT outing. In that case of course you are correct. As written, however, as long as parental supervision was available for the outing, would the same guidelines apply?

Hunt -

How many parents truly have the understanding of the Scouting program that we as volunteers have? Or even as active parents of Scouts? Parents just being exposed to Scouting for the first time do not have the understanding of the program us 'old pros' have. They don't understand 'two deep leadership' when they come to a Roundup. They don't know about proper accomodations or any of the other stuff we learn in YP. They know what they hear on the news, and they have opinions of gays, right or wrong. So to those parents, gays in Scouts is a risk they have concerns about. Perhaps if BSA did a Public Service series through the media explaining the methods taught in YP to the general public, it would go a long way toward making people more comfortable with the idea of gays in the BSA.

Perhaps I am not communicating my point clearly enough. It seems that most here that are for allowing gays in Scouting are of the opinion that those who are opposed to it are "homophobic". My point is not that parents are wrong to allow their daughter into a co-ed program, nor is it that gays in Scouting is wrong. My position is that many people have SAFETY CONCERNS, regardless of their feelings about gays. I am far from being a homophobe, but I can question the wisdom and safety of putting a group of boys in the care of someone who is attracted to males, just as I can question the safety of letting a 14 year old climb a mountain without proper training or equipment. One can assess a risk without being SCARED OF or AGAINST the source of the risk. For example, I am not anti-knife, or a "knifeophobe" to coin a term, but I can assess the risks of using a knife in a certain way, for example as a toothpick.

I think their are probably a lot more people who feel the way they do about gays in Scouting more because of perceived risk than for any other reason. Does this make them homophobes? Not in my eyes. Many policies of the BSA are set to eliminate risk, or at least control it to a degree. The way I see it, the BSA's stand on gays is one of these. I am not saying gays could not be good leaders. I am simply saying that the BSA most likely is using a 'risk avoidance' strategy here, rather than a 'morally straight' argument, even though some have pointed out that this has been the BSA's statement in the past.

This topic has come up for me before with parents. I took the approach of an open discussion, since we were not in the presence of the Scouts at the time. The number one reason for parents having a problem with gays in Scouting in that discussion was that it added an element of risk to the program that these parents were not comfortable with. As one Wolf dad put it, "You don't go bear hunting covered in honey". I'm sure that there are gay leaders in all levels of Scouting, and I'm sure that there are many that do an excellent job. But not to take the risks into consideration is doing a disservice to our Scouts. I am not thrilled with the BSA's 'official' position on gays in Scouting - the whole 'morally straight' thing rings a bit hollow to me - and I personally wish that National could come up with a better answer that doesn't make the BSA seem so stodgy, or find a way to allow gays to participate. Unfortunately, the participation of gays would lead to one of two outcomes as I see it - either we go backwards to the days of 'segregated troops', as in the day of all-black troops, or we allow integration into Scouting and deal with the fallout that creates. Its sad that it has to be that way, but such is our society. I welcome a time when Scouting is for ALL boys, but I don't think we're there yet as a society.

I meant it only strictly, responding to the (illogical, I thought) statement that "even the least homophobic" individuals fear (or abhor) the risk presented by homosexual leaders.

Ohadam -

One does not have to have a phobia about something in order to exercise caution. The fact that a person is concerned about putting a person who is attracted to males into an environment made up by design of impressionable YOUNG MEN is no more illogical then if you were to lock an alcoholic in your wine cellar. In either case, there is a valid reason to have concerns. There is also the possibility that absolutely nothing would happen. As Scouters, we are expected to do our best to ensure the safety of our Scouts. And while it may be true that more heterosexuals abuse Scouts, it is also true that we have no real figures to compare, since BSA frowns on gay leaders. Perhaps they think that placing adults who are sexually attracted to the same sex in a leadership position is akin to inviting a hungry person to a smorgasbord. Perhaps there are other reasons. But ask yourself this: Would you let your 15 year old daughter go into the woods with a bunch of 18 year old boys, even with a couple of adults present? Or are you a 'heterophobic"? Even if you have the utmost respect for the adults, you can't help but think "Something might go wrong". My statements on this topic have been intended to point out that it is normal for people to have concerns. Being wary when exposing your child to the possibility of risk, does not make them PHOBIC... it makes them PARENTS.

What are you trying to accomplish with the site? Will it be personal, informational or what? orgsites dot com offers hosting of up to 11 pages free to nonprofit organizations such as scout troops and cub packs, and are very easy to set up a site with. They have a good selection of backgrounds to get you started too.

Scouter.com (this site) also offers free hosting, although I don't know much about their package. Perhaps others here know more about it. If I can answer any more specific questions, message me here, or just post them.

http://www.orgsites.com/ma/pack11

Thanks to orgsites for the free ad-free hosting!(This message has been edited by jimswainbbmc)

acco -

Since no one else answered your questions, let me give it a shot.

7) Yes, it should be allowed as long as group size is not prohibitive. Scouting activities are always open to parents and siblings. Yes, they should be added to the roster, as they are still the responsibility of leadership.

8) The Eagle candidate is responsible for approval at ALL levels.

Did I pass? I have a spot free on my patch vest!

Saint, I don't recall saying I was for a ban of ANYONE... I was simply stating my views on why many are uncomfortable with the idea of gays in scouting. I also did not say I support that reasoning. As I stated before, at the core of Scouting is the Scout, and what is best for them. Scouting cannot be all things to all people, nor would it be effective if it was. But if we lose our focus on what is best for the Scout, then the program as a whole suffers. My personal belief is that the Scouting movement needs to become more proactive in teaching diversity. Not all of the people of the world fit into neat little boxes, and it is to the advantage of our Scouts to demonstrate that it takes all kinds to make a world. As a global organization, it only makes sense to educate the youth we work with about the differences to prepare them for adulthood.

In 11 pages of forum posts, I have seen the homosexuality issue discussed as a matter of ethics, a matter of religion, a matter of family values and many other viewpoints. What I am shocked I have NOT seen it discussed as is a matter of the safety of the child. I am not saying all homosexuals pose a threat, but the threat does exist. I have been involved in Scouting for over 30 years - started as a Web2, and never really left. Progressed all the way to Eagle, was an ASM, and currently working with a Cub pack. I have found that from a parent's standpoint, their biggest concern with homosexuals in Scouting is the possibility of impropriety with their Scout. While we promote two-deep leadership, we all know of times when this has NOT been applied. I have nothing against homosexuality, or those that are homosexual. But at the core of Scouting is the Scout, and what is right for them. I think you will find that deep down, even the least homophobic parent sees gay leaders as a risk that they are not willing to tolerate. Just my two cents.