The LDS Scouting program and BSA program

[Beavah]

Kids who are there because they have that interest, or even because their parents do, are probably going to excel somewhat at doing the activities, versus a kid who is there because he has to be there

 

Yah, so that makes da notion that they advance 5-10 times faster than "normal" troops (in terms of nights camping before making First Class) even more of a problem, eh? You'd expect less interested kids to advance less quickly.

 

Gary_Miller, the whole notion of doin' weekly indoor advancement classes just seems like the definition of a parlor scouting /advancement mill type approach. A real downgrading of the BSA program. Not that we don't have non-LDS troops and many camps that don't do something similar, but I reckon we realize they shortchange kids as well.

 

Da thing is, from your literature, I can't figure out why yeh choose to do that, eh? It doesn't seem like a radically weakened advancement program is consistent with the Church's goals for the YM. So why not opt for a more traditional (and effective) BSA program instead of racing da 11 year olds through a heavily watered down advancement-focused, adult-driven program?

 

Beavah

[BadenP]

All of this brings us back to the original question

 

LDS scouting is not the same as traditional scouting programs the eight methods have been changed to accomodate LDS missionary preparation methods over the advancement methods set down with the BSA program. So now does this make LDS scouting different, yes it does. Does this methodology make it difficult for a non LDS member of an LDS troop to fully fit in, IMO, yes it really does.

 

From what I have seen here and read since my first post the LDS program is no different than if a Catholic troops main goal was to make sure all the boys became priests and rank and methods of scouting became a distant secondary priority. So the question then becomes in spite of all its good intentions is LDS scouting truly scouting? Or is it a case where the CO uses an established program for its own purposes/priorities over that of the needs of the boys?

[BDPT00]

BadenP and I haven't see eye to eye on several occasions, but we're on the same page with this one. To hint in even the slightest way that LDS Scouting is the same as "regular" Scouting is ludicrous.

BDPT00

[GernBlansten]

My only complaint with the LDS implementation of the BSA program is their insistence that they do not modify the program for their needs. That the LDS program mirrors others, just with a few tweaks. It doesn't. It is dramatically different. Not better, not worse, but different. Their claim it is, bugs me and plenty of my peers.

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

Beavah, the church has not directed any specific way of conducting an 11-yr-old program. The program I describe is how I ran the program. Though it may seem that advancement was my main goal I also tried to incorporate all the other methods and aims of scouting into the program. Overall I think I did a pretty good job at accomplishing the mission.

[GernBlansten]

But Gary, you stated you used material (pamphlets) from the LDS church to run your 11 year old program. That indicates to us that you followed the teachings of how to deliver the BSA program under the LDS church and that it wasn't something you did on the fly.

[Gary_Miller]

I stated no such thing. All the materials use was official BSA material available to anyone.

[GernBlansten]

Gary,

I'm confused. The 3 night limitation on camping and keeping 11 year olds separate from the rest of troop activities is your own adaptation to the program and not a directive from the church?

[Gary_Miller]

BadenP, "LDS scouting is not the same as traditional scouting programs the eight methods have been changed to accomodate LDS missionary preparation methods over the advancement methods set down with the BSA program."

 

Which one of the eight methods as established by the BSA has the LDS church changed to accommodate LDS missionary preparation methods? Make sure you use facts in your answer, not your opion.

 

BadenP, "So now does this make LDS scouting different, yes it does."

 

Like I have said and shown the program is not different. The Boy Scout Aims and Methods are exactly the same. The material used are official BSA material.

 

BadenP, "Does this methodology make it difficult for a non LDS member of an LDS troop to fully fit in, IMO, yes it really does."

 

Your opion is absolutely incorrect. From experience I have had several non LDS scouts and leaders and there has never been any problems with them fully being fit into the program.

 

BadenP, "So the question then becomes in spite of all its good intentions is LDS scouting truly scouting?"

 

Of course it is. Why would you think any different?

 

BadenP, "Or is it a case where the CO uses an established program for its own purposes/priorities over that of the needs of the boys?"

 

As a charter organization the CO can use the BSA program "To help them accomplish their objectives". How is it that you feel that the COs of the LDS church puts their own purposes/priorities over the needs of the boys they serve?

[Gary_Miller]

GernBlansten, "I'm confused. The 3 night limitation on camping and keeping 11 year olds separate from the rest of troop activities is your own adaptation to the program and not a directive from the church?"

 

It's not my adaptation it's the churches directive. I made that plan in the quote that I typed right out of the churches 6 page scouting handbook.(This message has been edited by Gary_Miller)

[Gary_Miller]

BDPT00, "To hint in even the slightest way that LDS Scouting is the same as "regular" Scouting is ludicrous."

 

To even suggest that Scouting within the LDS COs is anything but regular scouting using BSA program materials is just ridiculous.

 

[GernBlansten]

Sorry Gary,

But you have only confirmed my opinions. I won't speak for others here, but from my observations, your program is not in anyway similar to the one I'm involved with.

[FScouter]

I find it interesting that after all of Gary's explanations of what the LDS Scouting program is and is not, some of you are still stuck on the same preconceived and incorrect beliefs.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm...

 

Gary_Miller, I think what I'm sayin' at least is that da 3-campouts-only, FCFY bit does seem to be a modification of the advancement and outdoors programs, and not a particularly healthy one, eh? And that seems to be a broad implementation, not a local one.

 

I think some of da criticism by others continues to be overbroad. There's nothing at all wrong with a CO using the program for its purposes, that's what it's designed for. And I think most LDS units do offer program for the 12-13 year olds at least that we'd all recognize as being "scouting."

 

I don't particularly care about the all-11, 3-campouts-only, FCFY stuff as that's the CO's call as well. But yeh have to admit, the LDS implementation is quite an outlier. As a Commish, if it were a "regular" unit doin' that, I'd challenge 'em to think about whether what they're doin' really matched their goals for the program and the kids.

 

So it seems like folks challengin' da typical LDS implementation might be doin' the same sort of thing. There's nothing wrong with tweaking the program, but there is if yeh find that the ways you're tweaking it aren't likely to get yeh to the kinds of results yeh claim to want.

 

Beavah

 

[Gary_Miller]

Beavah, "There's nothing wrong with tweaking the program, but there is if yeh find that the ways you're tweaking it aren't likely to get yeh to the kinds of results yeh claim to want."

 

I think the ways the LDS church has implemented the program for their young men gives the church the results they want.