So, what do you do when the SE is the problem?

[jkhny 10]

So, what DO you do when the SE is the problem? Ironic, as another in our Council found the posts below in Scouter's very own archives.

 

 

When an Executive Board handpicked by the same SE is the only way to remove that same SE, goo dluck trying to oust him. It is extremely difficult to get a hundred + chartering organizations involved to vote their legitimate vote though the effort is being attempted - a huge diversion of time and effort better spent on the boys in Scouting.

 

So, how DO volunteers deal with a problematic SE, one who cannot lead, who does more harm than good in a Council. National could care less - it seems that it is near impossible to remove a paid staffer and there are obviously not enough desk spots in Supply.

 

Our SE is the VERY SE cited in the posts below and we are suffering the VERY same problems. Professional staff has fled or been forced out leaving our SE as the longest serving professional of any importance and long serving volunteers have been driven from District and Council positions to be replaced with short serving leaders or novices willing to accept the dictates of our SE without question.

 

Rules are bent and broken - and Council has yet to "find" a copy of Council Bylaws despite requests from volunteers for copies......The Exec Board approves a new District Chairman BEFORE the District votes on him - even though the SE has "stacked" the District with new reps. Nominating Committees are handpicked to remove long serving volunteers who have aired criticisms.

 

There has been a wholesale alienation of volunteers, a falloff in donations (we have not met FOS goals since this SE arrived - this being the only way left for volunteers to register their dissatisfaction. Our SE's response is "Find new volunteers that will raise money for us!" Our SE pushes popcorn sales - which cannot hope to offset the losses in donations from long time contributors upset with HIS actions.

 

So, what DO you do? These are not the opinions of a few disaffected people. These sentiments have been expressed independently in the very same terms, in two widely separated Councils by a wide range of dedicated Scouters. Actually, three Councils if one takes second-hand reports from his last Council as true. Both his previous Councils rejoiced at his leaving.

 

The sentiments expressed below by one person have been confirmed by others. Actually, THAT poster's accomplishments in Scouting are substantial - He is now a professional Scouter himself - a very successful one.

 

There is a wide consensus about this SE - he is bad for Scouting. Why does National simply "circle the wagons" when confronted with such a problem? My SM taught that you acknowledge mistakes and work to correct them.

 

Volunteers here are dismayed with all of this. OUR program is being hurt and the ideals of Scouting are being so widely ignored than many question their committment to Scouting. When a SE manages to unite a diverse group of volunteers AGAINST him, something is very wrong.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

OK,please help me out.

You are having an ongoing disagreement with the SE who serves the Council in which you live.

So you have posted old postings from other people who at some time have had disagreements with other SE's who are not the person that you have your disagreement with, and other people are from where?

These postings that are seven years old prove what?

Am I missing something? If so what?

What is or was your position in the Council?

Do you know what you want?

How will you getting what you want improve Scouting and the Scouting programs in the area where you live / Scout?

What do you think the chances are of you ever getting what you want?

Is there a compromise that would suit you if you can't get what you want?

Is there a question that I should have asked?

Eamonn.

[jkhny 10]

You did not read the posting.

 

The seven year old postings refer to the SAME problems we are experiencing with the SAME Scout Executive - as noted in the posts from his previous Council. The poster from 7 years ago is an accomplished Scouter, now a professional himself. The complaints he raised have been confirmed as valid with others in that Council.

 

That SAME individual SE has been a source of continuing, similar and major complaints wherever he has served.

 

BSA has heard the SAME complaints about this person from 2 councils - and his previous Council before those was glad to be rid of him.

 

Yet BSA insists that any issues are "local" and will continue, it seems, to foist this person on unwary Councils instead of dealing with his behavior.

 

While one can say that an Executive Board is at fault for failing to investigate a candidates record fully, BSA National provides a list of supposedly qualified professionals for a Council to choose from. What standards are used by National to screen candidates (do they screen candidates)? Is National clear about a candidate's record? And once hired, it is VERY difficult for a Council's Executive Board to remove a SE - especially if the SE has replaced much of the Executive Board with his own candidates.

 

The question posed is: What can a Council do when the Scout Executive is the problem?

 

BSA National refuses to intervene. The SE controls the Executive Board. The only other option procedurally seems to be using the Chartered Organization Representatives and getting them to exercise their rarely used ability to cast votes in the annual Council meeting - a procedure that seems to be deliberately difficult, but the ONLY way for volunteers to have any voice in their Council.

[Eamonn 61]

I did indeed read your posting. It just wasn't very clear who was posting what!!

Still thanks for clearing things up for me.

I fail to see how asking the COR's to attend a meeting that they are supposed to attend anyway is any sort of deliberate procedural obstacle.

The COR's and the Council Members at Large are the voting members at this meeting.

While they can accept or refuse to accept the slate of Council Officers that the Council Nominating Committee presents at the meeting.The Scout Executive can not be voted out at this meeting. I feel sure that both the Council President and the Council Nominating Chairman, will not allow this meeting to become one where dissatisfied people voice their opinions. This is not the time or the place. If there really is a grass roots movement to remove the Scout Executive, the voting members can refuse to elect the people put forward by the nominating committee and try to get the nominating committee to come up with a list of people who feel the way they do.

I have to say that I find it strange that a Scout Executive could hand pick an entire Executive Board. We have had our Scout Exec. For a little over three years. Sure there are new faces on the board. People from different areas of the community, some are local business leaders, some are involved in education and some work in the community as church leaders or youth workers. We still have a lot of "Old timers". Among these there are four past presidents. One Council Vice-president is also the Area President, a few of the "Old timers" serve on different committees of the National Council. A couple more board members sit on the Area Committee. Please believe me these people do talk to each other as well as talking to Regional and National people. When a new Scout Executive is selected along with his references and reports of past performance there is a lot of people talking and finding out what the guys who are interviewing are really like.

You failed to mention what you really want? Or if there is some sort of a compromise that could be reached.

If you continue to pursue what might be looked upon as a vendetta against the Scout Executive and the Executive Board, you will damage and cause harm to the council. I am sure that is not something that you want to do.

Of course if you were to harm the Council and damage the good name of the Council this might be grounds for the Scout Executive to revoke your membership.

You will catch a lot more flies with honey then you will with vinegar. We are all in this for the good of the youth members. If you really are unable to work with the Scout Executive, stop being involved with Council and District activities and put all of your energy into a unit.

Eamonn.

[Twocubdad 665]

I feel sure that both the Council President and the Council Nominating Chairman, will not allow this meeting to become one where dissatisfied people voice their opinions. This is not the time or the place.

 

Eamonn, what would you suggest would be the proper time and place?

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

If someone has a problem.It needs to be a specific problem. They need to know what they want. There are channels that need to be followed.

Normally if there is a something that is making a volunteer unhappy, he can inform both his Unit Commissioner, who will inform the District Commissioner, who will bring it to the Key3. Or it can go to the COR, who is invited to attend the District Committee. If the problem is a district problem it can be taken care of at that meeting. If it has to do with something the Council has: done, hasn't done or is not doing the right way. There are representatives on the District Committee that sit on all the Council Committees and the District Chair. sits on the Executive Board.

The person with the problem does deserve a answer, and should be given one in a timely manner. Sad to say what often happens is that the person with the problem has already come up with what he wants to hear.

Most unit volunteers have very little dealings with the Scout Executive. Most of the time a Scout Executive is carrying out what the board has directed him to do or he is following through what has come down from the Region or from the National Office.

The Council Service Center,which in some Councils doubles up as the Scout Shop is staffed by people that are under his leadership. The Field Director reports to him. Most unit volunteers have little no dealings with the Field Director. He is the one that supervises the DE's. He is the one that trains and guides them.

The Scout Executive, does prepare a budget for the Council, which is scrutinized and passed by the Executive Board. The Council Finance Committee, working with the Districts and the District Finance set about making goals and raising the money. Some of the larger Councils have a Finance Director.

Someone saying "I don't like the Scout Executive" is not a problem - It is an opinion.

Sometimes we as volunteers do not know the full story or have the full picture. A few years back we hired a person as a camp director, soon he was doing all sorts of things and even though he wasn't a Scout Professional, he became a full time employee taking care of program. I was at a meeting where we discussed a job description for this guy. As time went by I became very upset that this chap wasn't doing his job. When he was finally let go,I mentioned to another board member that he had never done his job. I was informed that his job description had been changed. Needless to say I felt bad for thinking the way that I had.

There are of course Scout Executives that are really nice people that everyone wants to go out of their way to help and there are others that just don't have that skill. If you are lucky and get the warm and fuzzy one, don't let him fool you, the guy that you never see could be working his tail off trying to bring in grants, negotiating lower insurance premiums. How many of us really know what the Scout Executive really does? Does he make a difference in the life of a little Cub Scout? Or is that in the hands of the people in the unit?

Eamonn

[BadenP 93]

AS a former DE and Sr.DE who worked with three SEs I would like to add my two cents worth. Eamonn is correct when he says there must be specific charges, not liking his personality won't cut it. The SE is responsible for raising money and unit growth on a council wide basis, how he does it is not an issue if he is successful and his methods are legal. The SE rarely interfaces with the unit volunteers,depending on the size of the council, thats the DEs job. The SE goes to large and small companies, service groups, etc. to solcit financial support for the council. He will usually hand select people from these groups to serve on the council executive board, that is common practice. I was surprised that you are having so many problems, I have seen long time volunteers and a new SE clash over changes he wants to make. What you have to remember is that the SE is in total control and sets the plans in motion that he feels are needed. The SE answers directly to the regional office, and most of them want to do a good job so they can land a job at National or as a regional director, so sometimes his career goals might not be in step with what the volunteers want, or what the DEs want. The reality is that the SE is there to establish long term plans for the council, financially, facilities, etc. Most volunteers come and go every few years, those who hang in there for the long term should have a place in both district and council planning if the SE is smart.

[Eamonn 61]

BadenP,

While I agree with most of what you have posted.

In our area the volunteers do seem to out last the SE. We do have a turn over of adults in Cub Scouting, but nearly all of our troops seem to have guys who are "Lifers" - With no time off for good behavior!!

The SE serves at the pleasure of the Executive Board. In fact we did dismiss the SE we had before the one we now have. It did cause a lot of ill feeling in the council. It didn't help that we also let the Field Director go at the same time. Even though the Council President at the time was /is an attorney, there were threats of law suits. We would have lost the one against the Field Director, as only the Scout Executive can by rights fire him. The Council was put on probation. While the Assistant Scout Executive did take care of the day to day running of the Council, one of the Regional Directors was in charge until we appointed a new Scout Executive. I was on the board at the time and while there was a few people slapping each other on the back, most of us were worried about where these two (Scout Executive and Field Director) would go and what they would do, not because of fear of law suits, but just because we cared. As it all worked out the FD went back to the Council where he came from in a better position with more money. He was there for a couple of years and everything seemed to fall apart. His wife left him and he quit working for the BSA. The Scout Exec. Was from Texas and he did get a job in the National Office.

What was really strange was, when I went to Philmont for a conference on Commissioner Service. The Professional a Scout Executive who was one of the lead presenters (A super nice guy) took one look at my CSP, smiled and asked if we had settled down yet.

It is maybe too easy to blame everything that goes wrong on one person. I know that there are those who say that the buck has to stop some where? Still when things don't go right I have found that there is plenty of blame to go around and we can all take some of it.

This game works best when we are all working as a team, with no them and no us.

Eamonn.

Heck I found myself looking for help from a FD today - Wow I was the one that couldn't wait till the one we had was gone.

[jkhny 10]

So, what DO you do when the SE is the problem?

 

District numbers are in and we're down substantially AGAIN in Cubs and Scouts. Volunteer fall-off supporting District and Council is substantial. They're now begging for Commissioners after removing those that have done a great job - but since they opposed our SE's position on facilities sales and other issues they can't serve. All the no-show political appointees aren't doing any work.

 

Funny but after the scandal in AL and elsewhere we suddenly stopped talking about OUR pereviously widely touted new inner city units and the claims of 5 % growth a few months back have evaporated. We're off double that instead - or more.

 

This SE's former Council had a severe drop in their enrollment after this guy left - the new SE wisely did not want to try to build on inflated enrollment numbers. As posted here years back, that Council saw a falloff in financial support, volunteer support and a wholesale replacement of all paid staff and most of the volunteers in positions of authority. After 3 years they're still repairing the damage.

 

BSA National can't be oblivious to these problem professionals - and as a member of his former Council said "There aren't enough desks at Supply."

 

When is BSA going to realize that they're their own worst enemy. The PAID staff are too often the BIGGEST problem volunteers have to face. The same short term focus on "numbers" has led to the enrollment fraud in AL, GA, now Oregon and FL. Volunteers - and in OR a PAID staffer - tried to get BSA to deal with these problems but their Councils didn't want to hear it. National still denies they have a problem after decades of the same thing.

 

The warning signs are clear - a focus on "raising more money" even as leaders stop supporting FOS in protest, endless and irrational recriuiting drives (you can't push for more boys when there aren't enough adults to handle those you have - we're even paying into unit accounts for every new body signed up) and a focus on meeting "quality" measures in any way possible. The adult volunteers see the fraud and get fed up. "Timeless values" - yeah sure. And when you try to do what's right you get punished - removed from District and Council positions - or even thrown out of Scouting. It happened here and the whistle blower in AL was threatened with the same. Seems like more than a few Councils have the same issues. NOT a coincidence. But National hides in TX saying "not our fault" and disavowing the behavior of "individuals" - though their own focus on numbers drives the recurring fraud. When will BSA Inc. return to the "high standards of character" it claims to hold so dear?

[Eamonn 61]

I can't help thinking why the Scout Executive if he is as bad as you have painted him is still there? Each and every Council is visited every quarter by a member of the Area Committee. This happy band then meets every three months to discuss what is happening in the Councils. They look at membership and the finances of the Council.

Either the Area President or a Vice President is in contact with a member of the Council Key 3, normally the Council President or the Council Commissioner. The Area meetings are attended by the Area Director. While the Area Committee does not have the power to fire or recommend the dismissal of a Scout Executive, they can prevent the Council from receiving a normal charter and only issue a provisional charter. This is a wake up call for any Council.

What has gone on in other parts of the country is very sad, and while it seems clear that a few ( three or four Councils out of more than five-hundred.)people have abused the trust that we put in them. I have to wonder where the volunteers who work next to these guys were?

As I have already posted Scout Executives serve at the pleasure of the Council Executive Board. If the Scout Executive is as bad as you say, I have to wonder why a member of the board hasn't made a motion to remove him?

Unless that happens you are stuck with this guy until he decides to move.

People holding back support from the Council only hurts the people that we are here to serve.

While Scout Executives are powerful people in any Council, they only act to carry out the wishes of the Board and meet the needs of the long term strategic plan of the Council. No one person acting alone can sell Council properties or change the direction of a Council.

While it is easy to look at some of the Non-Scouting people who sit on our Committees and Boards and say that they don't understand or they don't know what they are doing. However these people are used to dealing with huge sums of money, many have eons of experience of working for large companies, which many scout volunteers don't have. While the idea of a bunch of happy Scouts singing around the camp fire is a great Scouting image, there has to be some poor soul working away trying to balance the budget, meet payroll, worry about insurances, maintenance. Hoping that the money coming in is enough to meet the money going out. With Council budgets now running into the millions of dollars, we need to get as much support from people who understand dealing with these sums as possible.

Eamonn.