My can of worms - current resolution

[JeffD 10]

We had our leader meeting tonight for the pack and all present voted to not allow it for anyone under the rank of bears (and the W1 leader says she didnt want any of hers having it either)

 

I am disappointed because of how I voted versus how I perceived everyone else voting. I used the G2SS and the Cub Leader handbook while the arguments against (and boy were some vocal) were that they didnt want a bunch of kids running around with knives chasing each other. Maybe I am wrong and completely off base, but this is why I thought we, as leaders, are trained: to enforce the rules and execute the program and know how to handle many of these types of situations.

 

I still will argue that the concepts learned by the whittling chip should be taught to all cubs (and most of their parents ) who attend campouts. They should know the safe and proper use of the tools. They should also know that when they see unsafe behavior, they can and should tell leaders so that we can correct this. Finally, they should know what is acceptable behavior by all attending when it comes to knives.

 

As leaders we should also be trained to know how to safely use the knife. I know many of us came up through scouting and have something of an idea or at least have convinced our egos that we already know it - but it is nice to be reminded of the proper use.

 

As a result of looking into this I think we are going to start teaching our scouts and especially those who attend campouts with us the concepts behind the whittling chip. Just because they cant get the whittling chip, doesnt mean they wont come across a knife outside of the scouting environment. You would hope they would act in the proper way, but maybe this training would give them something else to think back to.

 

YiS

 

[Lisabob 13]

Jeff, I agree with you that it is never too early to start teaching respect for tools, even if one isn't going to be using those tools. I also agree that more training of leaders in tool use and safety is a good idea. I'm not sure about OWL (or whatever the outdoor webelos leader training is called in your area)? But I know in OLS (for troop leaders) there is a component on knife, saw, and axe usage. Not to say one part of one day is enough; I think it is really intended as a reminder, rather than a primer.

 

One place where I don't agree is your statement that trained leaders should be able to ensure safety with knives and cubs. My view is that this would be true of older boys, who are less likely to act in irrational or simply un-thinking ways around such tools. But as mentioned before, most 6/7 year olds just don't have the developmental capacity for abstract thought (what will happen if...). Thus they tend to be quite unpredictable because they do things that aren't "logical" to us. This doesn't make them bad kids or "knife wielding maniacs," it is just how their still-forming brains work. We might be trained as leaders in how to RESPOND to such situations, but the thing with knives is that we want to prevent, rather than respond to, problems, accidents, injuries. I wouldn't be willing to take that risk as a leader of tiger cubs. It is too much to ask.

[JeffD 10]

i agree about the tigers. i really wasnt sold on that from the start. the one bringing it up had asked for where it said 'bears and webelos only".

 

i just figured if the G2SS and leader books say it is fine for wolf and above - then we should be able to make the decision to offer it (assuming their akela's also participated in it).

 

yes - a trained leader cannot ensure safety under all situations, and i would rather have all leaders trained on how to act safely.

 

thanks for the insights

[SemperParatus 1]

Jeff,

 

You make some very good points and appear to be a sharp scouter, on the cutting edge of scout training opportunities. Doing a little slicing and dicing of the G2SS and handbooks, will help you get a handle on this situation which, as you found out in your leader meeting, cuts both ways.

[JeffD 10]

thanks for the advice. i am sure to put my nose to the grind and sharpen my skills. afterall - if i do not hone my skills - the scouts will surely become dull to the program.

i just hope we arent shaving off the parts of the program that will help the scouts later on.

[SemperParatus 1]

Just be careful you don't end up carving a niche for yourself on these forums. I think I've said eknife already.

[JeffD 10]

just get to the point.. i like that.

[KurtB 10]

Not to cut short the fun Semper and Jeff are having, but the real decision of when a scout earns their chip rests with the Akela, and the G2SS. If a Wolf would like to earn the chip, there is nothing that the pack can do to stop it. The chip indicates that the scout has been taught knife safety, and will promise to be safe with the knife.

 

The pack can control if knives are allowed at certain functions. It is within their power to state that only scouts of Bear rank or above, that have earned their chip, can use a knife at the campout. It is not within the power of the pack committee to disallow a scout from earning the chip at all.

 

What will you do when a Wolf scout transfers into your pack, after earning the chip when with his old pack?

 

[JeffD 10]

i know you didnt mean to foil our pun kurt...

 

It is not within the power of the pack committee to disallow a scout from earning the chip at all.

 

care to discuss this more?

[KurtB 10]

Simple. If the committee tells a Wolf scout that they cannot earn the chip, they are changing (subtracting from) the program provided by the BSA - Something that the committee does not have the power to do.

 

Again, if the Pack policy is "No chip until Bear." what happens when a Wolf transfers in, that has already earned their chip? Will the committee just take away a chip that was correctly earned somewhere else? How will they explain that to the scout?

 

This is an ongoing problem with Pack policies that directly go against the program the BSA provides. What will the committee do when somebody enters the pack that IS following the program?

 

[KurtB 10]

As a side comment about the "kids running around with knives" concern that was expressed. The basic rule that we have when it comes to knives at campouts (or the occational den meeting that they may be needed for) is this:

 

The chip allows you to USE a knife when required, however, the parent is who gets to carry it when it is not being used.

 

That "rule" as put in place before I was involved with my son's Pack. And it has helped to prevent problems that happened in the past. If the scout does not have the knife in his pocket, it cannot get lost, pulled on another scout ("but I was just showing him what it looked like"), or used to carve their initials into a tree (or other misuse).

 

If a parent gives the scout his knife to use, there should not be concerns with him "running around with it". Because the parent should know why the knife was given to the scout.

 

Our scouts are taught that just like any other tool, when they need it, they go and get it from where it is safely stored. In the case of a pocket knife, it's proper storage place is with the parent. In the case of a hammer, the storage place is in the tool box (not under the bed where it got pushed along with the dirty clothes because you did not put it away when done using it). For a screw driver....you get the point...

[Lisabob 13]

Kurt I must say I don't see a whole lot of difference between the rule your pack adopted (parents carry the knife) and those rules which other packs have adopted, which you have said go against the BSA programs. In both cases, the pack leadership have stipulated that they are going to put additional safeguards in place.

[KurtB 10]

I can understand some confusion.

 

Our rule (which as I said was created before I was around) puts the responsibility of when the knife gets used upon the scout and their Akela. In a way, it is adding to the requirements as the Chip does state that the scout would be allowed to carry a knife to designated cub scout functions. Often, an Akela will give their scout "free reign" to carry their knives (especially at the Webelos level). When that happens, the parent will usually tell the other adults about it, and that is where it ends. Nobody will force a scout to "not carry" if they have been given permission by their Akela.

 

I see that rule as different from limiting at what rank the chip can even be earned. Most packs that put in place such a restriction, pick the Bear rank because it is part of one achievement in the Bear handbook. If the G2SS states that it would be OK for Wolves, why limit it to Bears? Being able to safely handle a knife it not as much an age based skill as it is a skill based on fine motor control and personal responsibility. I have met Tiger cubs that I would trust handling a knife before some Bear scouts that I have met.

 

What is going to happen when a pack with a "not before Bear" rule, takes in a transferred Wolf that has earned their Chip? Or to place the focus on a different part of the cub scout program, what will happen when a committee passes a rule about "no scout below the Webelos rank, could earn the beltloops required by the Webelos program"? Both would be rules put in place by a committee in direct contrast to the program as spelled out by the BSA, strictly based on when an activity appears in the handbooks.

 

Kurt

 

(For the record, if I felt like fighting the fight, I would attempt to remove the "parent carry" rule that our Pack uses. Fortunately, it is not strongly enforced which keeps me from having to fight to get rid of it. It is treated more as a guideline to parents than a hard and fast rule. Maybe at the next committee meeting I will propose that the rule be removed. Based on the fact that it is not really enforced, there may not be much of a fight.)

[JeffD 10]

thanks for that kurtb.

 

what you posted is what i had thought was true - but since i was so close to the subject, i felt it necessary to see if thats what you were referring to.

 

the rules your pack has about tool usage seem very reasonable to me.

 

i also read online where some national training didnt like the idea of ripping corners from the card as it will humiliate the boys - so they decided to just take the card away for any infraction.

 

i just hope my son's 'dremel chip' is valid for when he builds his PWD car

 

thanks all - and continue the input