Back strength traing for NTIER

[scoutfreakdad 10]

I am the adult advisor for a crew going to northern tier. Tomorrow we will start meeting in a local park once a week. I plan to start with a callisthenic program than concentrates on abdominal strength training. Planks, side planks, crunches, side crunches, reverse crunches, leg lifts, also pushups with varying hand positions. Im having the scouts bring there bedroll for this, they were also instructed to bring at least a litter of water. Then we will mount packs filled with a sleeping bag and weights, I will weight them with and without packs and adjust until they have 40lbs. This park is the hilliest place in town. We will not use waist belts. I plan to progressively increase the weight and distance until they are carrying 90lbs. for three miles.

Questions: Should I base the pack weight off a percentage of there body weight?

Do you have any advice on how to get them strong enough for the portages? Those Duluth bags weigh 80lbs and have no waist belt.

 

[The Blancmange 67]

 

Those Duluth bags weigh 80lbs and have no waist belt.

Other than a food pack, it would be pretty tough to load a duluth-size pack with 80 pounds. That is too heavy. If you insist on single portaging (which isn't necessary, especially with a group of rookies), you're better off with two lighter packs, one on the front, and the other either on top of it or in the front. Also, Does NT still use the old-fashioned duluth packs with no waist strap? I have never gone through them, but the picture on their home page prominently shows a modern Kondos-style pack with a waist belt.

 

I plan to progressively increase the weight and distance until they are carrying 90lbs. for three miles.

That's too much weight, espcially younger or smaller folks. A regular weight aluminum or rotomolded canoe weighs 80-85 lbs. I have seen smaller folks or those who are not in great shape struggle with that. I would simply have them hike with packs of 40 +/- pounds. The 25% guideline from backpacking is a little too conservative, as you are not hiking nearly the distances, 1/2 to 1 mile at the most (unless youre doing the Racers in Queticio),but I don't think its necessary to carry more than a 40-50 lb. pack.

Have a great trip.(This message has been edited by The blancmange)

[scoutfreakdad 10]

The Duluth bag has three peoples worth of gear, then there is the food pack and the canoe, we all carry something. I have never been before but I am told they are large square canvas bags. That looks heavy to me.

http://www.ntier.org/Resources/Brochures/2011%20ERPG.pdf

see page 8 of the planning guide above

 

 

I do want to do single portages, typically they shouldnt be greater than 1mile, but there is a three mile one. I have read that we triple our work otherwise. All the boys are over 14y/o for high adventure, and my crew is reasonably fit, just not heavy pack strong. 90lbs is probably too much, I packed 40lbs last night in an alice pack and that seamed heavy.

 

[The Blancmange 67]

The picture to which you are referring is a food pack. You can tell because it has the rigid box liner to minimize crushing your food. These will obviously start out as your heaviest packs and get lighter thoughout the week. For a full crew, you will probably start out with 2 of these and may be able to consolidate them as the week goes on. These have hip belts, and from the other pictures, I am guessing their other packs do as well.

 

If everone packs within reason, you should be able to keep the weight of the personal packs, even with 3 people within reason. Give it a try on one of the shakedown hikes. Have everyone bring in what they plan on bringing and weigh it. Compression stuff sacks, for clothing as well as sleeping bags, are great for getting everything in the pack. I don't know if NT provides liners, but if not "contractor" trash bags from your local home improvement center. Ask around at a roundtable or elsewhere to see if anyone has a portage pack you can borrow to try out.

[resqman 108]

We covered 100 miles paddling and 4 miles portaging last summer. We ONLY did single portages because our Guide explained that is the only acceptable way ... in his opinion. We had a sister crew who did a single portage only once during their week long 75 mile trek. While trading stories after the trek, they wished that their guide had made them perform single portages. They complained of much wasted time and effort backtracking on multiple pass portages.

 

While all the lads in my crew were 14, one weighed 90 lbs. Another was maybe 115. We required every member of the crew carry a canoe at least once during the week. They may not have had the arm strength to get the canoe on their shoulders by themselves but could certainly carry the 80-90 lb aluminum canoe. If you have smaller guys, two lift the canoe on to the shoulders of the third who carries the canoe. Once on the shoulders, the canoes do not seem very heavy. They balance well and are relatively easy to carry. There are shoulder pads built into the canoes to provide some cushioning. On steep hills, one end may bump the ground but you learn how much to tilt the canoe so you can see and still not drag the canoe. The smaller boys preferred carrying the packs.

 

We had 2 adults, 4 boys, and a guide. The ones carrying the packs also had to carry the paddles, fishing gear and water bottles. If you carried a canoe, you only carried a canoe (except the guide). We had 2 gear packs, 1 food pack, 1 crew gear pack, guides personal gear pack, and second food pack about 1/2 full. Guide carried his personal gear pack, 1/2 food pack and canoe. One more person in the crew would have eliminated the need for the guide to double/triple up.

 

We did no special training or exercising before the trek other than two 2 hr sessions of flat water paddling on a nearby lake. What we learned was the lads had a hard time holding a straight course. Techincally our trek was 100 miles of paddling but the lads canoes went much further since they zig zaged across every lake for a week. They were too busy yakking and having fun for the one in the stern to look up, pick a point on the horizon, and head for it.

 

My 14 yr old, 5'9", 175lb son carried a pack on his front and canoe on his shoulders for a couple of portages just to say he did it. It was a personal challenge for him. Our guide carried a food pack on his back, his personal gear pack in the front and a canoe on his shoulders every portage all week. By the end of the week, the food pack was only the trash.

 

Our guide was also 6'4". He also completed a Guide Challenge the last day of our trek. The entire crew paddled 7 miles to a specific location just over the Canadian border. We jointed carried the 3 canoes but no gear to the end of the course. He tied 3 canoes together and carried them 400 yards back to the beginning. One canoe on his shoulders and the other 2 tied to the top one dangling by his side. Then we all paddled 7 miles back against a head wind with 12-16 inch choppy waves. All for the fun of it. We started the day within 2 miles of base camp. We just wanted to say we had treked 100 miles during the week!

 

I was 3 lbs under the max per the height/weight chart. The first couple of days of portaging I felt some minor chest pain while carrying canoes up steep hills. Instead of running up the hill, I walked up the hills and I did much better. Within a couple of days, no problems.

 

I would recommend aerobic or cardio conditioning more so than strengh training. It is an endurance test, not a strength test. They will be paddling for 6-8+ hrs plus carrying heavy loads up and over hills. None of the lads complained once about the weight of the packs, just the distances of the portages.

 

I believe the longest portage we had was about 110 Rods (~600 yards). We only covered 4 miles of portages in an entire week! We portaged 8 times before lunch one day. You said your goal was 90lbs for 3 miles. Totally unnecessary. Most portages are under 200 yards. Techincally portages are measured in Rods, about 18 feet, the average length of a canoe. We had a couple of portages that on the map were listed as 2 rods. We just left the gear in the canoe. One fella in the front and one in the stern and we just hand carried it over the rocks and dropped into the next lake.

 

Just checked my photos. Yeah, both packs have waist belts. Here is a link to my facebook page photos of our trek. Red shirts is one crew, Purple shirts the other crew.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=100000720154662&aid=20610#!/album.php?id=100000720154662&aid=20610&closeTheater=1

[scoutfreakdad 10]

I understand now, the reason we dont wear the waist straps is because when you portage a canoe there is no waist strap, I finally got to see a Duluth bag in person last night, they do in fact have waist straps. An old geezer that has been to NTIER 10 times explained it to me.

[The Blancmange 67]

 

the reason we dont wear the waist straps is because when you portage a canoe there is no waist strap

Huh? While a low-tech canoe might weigh 85 pounds, when one is carrying it with a properly positioned yoke (so it is balanced front to back), all of the weight is directly over your spine and you can stand up straight easily. In fact, as long as you don't have a bunch of extra stuff strapped into the canoe, you should almost be able to balance it without your hands.

On the other hand, a heavy pack without a hip belt, is quite awkward to carry. It tends to pull you over backward, forcing you to hunch forward. The hip belt ameliorates this somewhat by transferring some of the load directly to the hips. This is why it's also important to pay attention to how the pack is loaded. Heavy items should go toward the body and higher up in the pack. Older Duluth packs addressed this differently, using something called a "tump strap." This was a strap that was attached to the sides of the pack and went accross the wearer's forhead, transferring some of the load to the spine, but less comfortably that a hip belt. IMO carrying heavy loads without the hip belt is just asking for a back injury, rather than preventing it as was the OP's goal.

Resqman also gives good advice as far as practicing on the water as well. You will spend much more time on your trip paddling than portaging (hopefully).

I may not qualify as an old geezer (my kids might say different), but I do have more than 10 trips to the BW/Q.

[The Blancmange 67]

Resqman, great pictures. Looks like a fantastic trip. Sometimes I forget how spoiled I am living within a single day's drive of Ely.

[resqman 108]

I had a number of concerns before I attended NT. The problems and concerns I had before going were never a problem once there.

 

- Sitting in wet socks, boots, and clothes all day will be uncomfortable and cause chafing. We wore synethic shirts, pants/shorts, underwear, and socks. Everything but the socks air dried quickly and was not a problem. Get some underarmour underwear to prevent jock rash.

 

- Walking in waist deep water to launch or remove a canoe. Why do I intentionally want to get wet every time all day? Turns out it was nice break from the summer sun to get wet. We went 2nd week of Aug

 

- Sitting on a metal seat with no back rest paddling all day is going to give me severe lower back ache. I have a history of lower back pain. Never an issue for even one moment. There is a enough total body movement that you lower back is in constant motion so need for backrest.

 

- Duffing might be fun. Hah. Sitting cramped between two packs on the bottom of a canoe with water sloshing around. I never duffed and am glad I did not have to.

 

- Portaging is going to be the worst thing ever! Well, suprisingly it was a nice break from paddling to get out and stretch my legs. The portages were long enough that you get a break but not so long you dread them. We had two portages at least 100 rods. All the rest were under 50 rods including many that were less than 5 rods. I bruised my arm the first day and it was painful to lift the canoe all week but part of the challenge.

 

- The water purification stuff is going to taste horrible. Nope, no taste what so ever. Easy to use. No problems or complaints even from the picky eaters.

 

- A camelback hydration system is the best. Guide strongly recommended against taking my camelback. Just one more pack to lug around. Too difficult to fill with water. He was right. The nalgenes with a carbiner clips to your belt for portages and is easy to fill while underway making sure you are hydrated. Using nalgenes also gave you an excuse to rest from paddling while you fumbled for it, opened it, drank, refilled and purified.

 

- 90lbs of pack will be too much for us to carry. Nope. Every crew member includeing the smallest at just over 90lbs himself carried full packs and canoes with no difficulty, once the load was on their shoulders. Lifting the packs in place was a struggle occasionally for the smaller guys.

 

- Everything is going to be wet all the time including my sleeping bag. I packed all my personal gear in a lightweight drybag, which goes in a large heavyweight trash bag inside the common gear bag. The trashbag kept everything dry but I am still glad I had the lightweight dry bag for personal stuff just of piece of mind. Don't use the heavy duty drybags. They are too bulky, heavy and are overkill.

 

- How am I going to get a weeks worth of gear to fit in a sleeping bag size sack? Easy, 1 sleeping bag, 1 change of clothes, and a flashight. I wore my knife on belt and I had bifocal sunglasses. Everything else was extra weight. I am glad I brought a paperback for evenings and a small notepad/pencil to record thought and events. Food bowel and spoon stayed in the food box.

 

- While I have first aid training, if something goes wrong, we will be in deep do do. We saw so many other canoes on the water, I never really felt like we were in the wilderness. Certainly there is the possibilty of major injury but we were a lot closer to rescue than is depicted in the leaders guide.

 

- The picky eater will get over it in a day or two. Nope. In fact we had a hard time getting all crew members to eat enough. There was plenty of volumne of food. Too much for two of the lads.

 

- Not looking forward to running out of TP. We only took one roll of TP for the entire week for the entire crew. The cellophane wrapper was never removed. We used leaves everytime with no ill effects or hardship.

 

- Wearing hiking boots in a water environment seems like overkill. Maybe while paddling but definitely needed during portage. Heard all kinds of horror stories about cheap boot failures. No footware failures during our trek.

 

- Wearing the same wet clothes every day and only being able to have 1 change of dry clothes at night doesn't sound like fun. Everthing I wore was synethic. Putting on damp socks the next morning was not a highlight but everything else dried by morning. Not really a problem.

 

- Might have personality clashes with some of the crew members. Yep and yep. Overall it was mostly teenagers being teenagers and adults having different expectations. Our trip lasted one day longer than my patience. Oh well.

 

My son enjoyed the experience. No part of it was a true hardship for him. It was all just a giant fun adventure. He was physically up for the challenge and more. I see a change in him that he may not recognize. He has been challenged and knows deep inside that everything else is trival and not really a threat to him.

 

We had one fair skinned fella who got sunburned day one. He ended wearing a lightweight windbreaker the remainder of the trip as sun protection. Make sure you have sunscreen. The water bouncing off the lake will get everyone on the face.

[BartHumphries 10]

"We will not use waist belts. I plan to progressively increase the weight and distance until they are carrying 90lbs. for three miles." I recommend you stop by your local SCUBA shop and buy a weight belt from them. They're fairly ordinary canvas belts (like a seat belt) that you slip weight pouches on (or velcro on or whatever). Heck, you could probably even make them yourself. Use those when you're practicing hiking and training for strength and endurance, because it puts the weight where it should be during the real thing -- on your hips (your waist).

 

Toss those Duluth bags and get a real bag. Seriously -- they're going to be going bright red in the arms and face because those bags are going to be cutting off circulation in their arms and upper body. Get that weight off your shoulders.

 

The picture on the front page of http://www.ntier.org/Resources/Brochures/2011%20ERPG.pdf is a bad one, setting a bad example. Call ahead and ask, but if there's no way to transfer the weight from the shoulders to your hips (waist), tell them that you're going to bring your own packs.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

Now these are some serious portage packs:

http://www.granitegearstore.com/Traditional-Portage-Packs-C25.aspx

and

http://www.granitegearstore.com/Expedition-Portage-Packs-C16.aspx

 

I am in the process of rebuilding a canoe, and want to get some of these products to supplement my pack gear.

http://www.granitegearstore.com/Canoe-Accessories-C17.aspx

Where I am portages are virtually non-existant.

[BartHumphries 10]

"Superior One -- Volume: 7400 cubic inches | 121.3 liters"

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

[resqman 108]

Traditional #4 is what NTier issues for personal gear packs. 6000 cu in. for 3 peoples personal gear.

[scoutfreakdad 10]

thanks guys.

I have modified our strength training based on your advice and its working out nicely. We canoe down a creek to the park, portage out, we have one aluminum canoe with a yolk and we rotate it among the crew, (the others dont have yolks) the remaining crew used weighted packs with waist belts allowed. we go over hill and dale till we get our fill then we do a killer abdominal and general body strength workout and stretch. After that we paddle back. the strokes are really improving. Preparing for carrying the canoe with the canoe seams much better. I appreciate your help guys, its going to be a great adventure.

 

Those packs look cool, We are going to do a shakedown campout canoe adventure Ntier gear only, those would be great for that.

Thanks for the links

 

[Engineer61 19]

90#'s? Yikes, that's like 70% of my Scout's weight! (Maybe more...)

 

That means I'd have to carry.....nope not goin there!