Philmont patch..

[kraut-60 10]

Last year, I purchased a new Jac-Shirt, sized mens large. I trekked at Philmont in '06 and had purchased a bull patch at the Tooth of Time Trading Post after I finished the trek. I had the bull patch sewn on by a lady who is better with needle and thread than I.

 

While pinning the patch on, we noticed that if the bull was aligned over the left pocket correctly, the bulls front hooves were about 3/16th-1/4 of an inch above the upper seam of the left pocket flap. We also took note that the last 1/2 inch of the bulls tail passed over the seam on the left shoulder.

 

I beleive this lack of space is peculiar to newer Jac-Shirts, as I have checked older Jac-Shirts and found the distance between the pocket seams and the seam running over the shoulders to be noticeably wider in older versions...the older one I checked this on is a large as is mine.

 

I am glad I climbed Mount Baldy (during daylight), but I still hear some flak when asked about the tail position of my bull patch...the flak generally consists of claims that the tail over means climbing the tooth...even though Baldy is higher.

[eagle1977 10]

I guess I can wear the tail over the shoulder on both accounts then. My trek was just over 70 miles and we climbed to the top of Baldy (in daylight) and over the Tooth. Interesting details about the new jac-shirt. Mine is in the attic because I have not been active for a while. I am now renewing my interests to encourage my own 10 year old to participate in Scouting.

[BulldogBlitz 10]

what is it with this phrase:

 

"I climbed Mount Baldy (during daylight)"

 

is there something to day/night? i served on the trail crew in the mid 80s and don't recall anyone specifying if there was daylight when they topped baldy.

[eagle1977 10]

I was simply going with the flow of some of the other posters. I have seen references to watching the sun rise from the top of Baldy, so must one climb to the peak at night? Or is that just another tall tale related to some people and their Philmont experience?

[Eagle92 110]

The insignia Control Guide has the exact location for the Philmont Bull and the Charles L Summers Loon that is also worn on the red jac shirt on the shoulder in the same location.

 

Sorry Don't remember if Sea base have something or not. if not let it be the starfish.

[emb021 16]

"The insignia Control Guide has the exact location for the Philmont Bull and the Charles L Summers Loon that is also worn on the red jac shirt on the shoulder in the same location."

 

"Sorry Don't remember if Sea base have something or not. if not let it be the starfish."

 

For Seabase it used to be a conch. Now its a shark. This is mentioned in the Insignia Guide.

 

BTW, the idea of wearing the tale of the bull over the shoulder seam is a myth.

 

[eagle1977 10]

"The insignia Control Guide has the exact location for the Philmont Bull and the Charles L Summers Loon that is also worn on the red jac shirt on the shoulder in the same location."

 

Having just looked at the site I did not see a relevant topic in the list. Could you please provide a link?

 

As to the myth . . . I was a young and impressionable scout when I was told by my Ranger that my crew would be able to wear the tail over our shoulders since we climbed the Tooth. Would be interesting to see it in writing from the BSA though.

[Bob White 20]

Here is what the Insignia Guide says. " Philmont Bull, worn on the left side of the jacket or jac-shirt above the pocket"

 

Anyone who has been to Philmont on either the Trek side or at the Training Center can wear the Philmont Bull. Put the tail wherever you want there is no official rule or tradition that covers it, only an urban legend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[emb021 16]

"Here is what the Insignia Guide says. " Philmont Bull, worn on the left side of the jacket or jac-shirt above the pocket" "

 

It further states that the Canoe Base loon and Sea Base Shark go in the same location.

 

"Anyone who has been to Philmont on either the Trek side or at the Training Center can wear the Philmont Bull. Put the tail wherever you want there is no official rule or tradition that covers it, only an urban legend."

 

It's been stated by high-up at Philmont that the 'tail over the shoulder' is an urban legend. There is no basis for it, but its been around for years.

[BulldogBlitz 10]

"It's been stated by high-up at Philmont that the 'tail over the shoulder' is an urban legend. There is no basis for it, but its been around for years."

 

urban legend? seems that if it has been around for years, it makes it to "tradition" status. when i went 20 years ago, no one in my troop had ever been. i heard about the tail over the shoulder in the trading post at philmont.

 

if i have to declare myself a uniform or patch police, i'm more inclined to say that this patch says that you went to philmont for a trek, staff, training, etc. it represents that you physically were at philmont on some level. if i see someone with a philmont patch, i might be inclined to talk to them about it (as i'm naturally introverted and it isn't always easy for me to make small talk) - "hey, you went to philmont too? what did you do there? wasn't it great?" if the response is "um sorry, i just like this patch, i've never even been west of the mississippi", where does that conversation lead?

[eagle1977 10]

"urban legend? seems that if it has been around for years, it makes it to "tradition" status. when i went 20 years ago, no one in my troop had ever been. i heard about the tail over the shoulder in the trading post at philmont. "

 

I agree with this statement. While I completely understand that neither the BSA Uniform Guide nor anyone "high-up at Philmont" has an official position on the matter of the tail's placement it is certainly more than an urban legend. The only difference from Bulldog's statement is my conversation took place 33 years ago. Claiming that it is a mere urban legend tends to take away the significane placed on the tail's location by others who placed it there on good faith.

 

If asked I will continue on in telling my tale of this tradition.

[Bob White 20]

Seems if enough scouters do the wrong thing for a long enough period of time...before you know it...you got yourself a 'tradition'.

[BulldogBlitz 10]

seems that if it isn't literally in print, then it can't or shouldn't be done. all other explanations are that it must be an "urban legend". ;o

[emb021 16]

"seems that if it isn't literally in print, then it can't or shouldn't be done. all other explanations are that it must be an "urban legend". ;o"

 

 

Uh, yeah.

 

Like the people I would encounter who would wear the World Conservation Award where the World Crest would go, because some scouter told them it belonged there, despite all the documentation that says it doesn't.

 

 

[resqman 108]

I climbed Baldy in the daylight and Tooth of Time at night to watch the sunrise in '75.

 

I agree that the tail over the seam is a tradition. It has been around since I treked 30+ years ago. Traditions are not necessarily written, they can be oral and passed from generation to generation without being written. The fact that the story is so widespread and has continued for such a long time, makes it a tradition.