CRANEACE

Mokgamen:

Thank you for your comments, it's been a while since this board has been active. I especially thank you for your comment indicating that there is no official statement on membership being "removed for life". As you read, the case with this young man is too often the case with others.

In this case, however, no documentation was ever supplied to ANY scout officials, scoutmaster, committee chair, scout exec, regional or national appeal boards. No ducumentation ever was supplied, because it does not exist. This is a case of hastly "judgement" as you well put it. I feel sorry for the fact that this young man, who earned his rank through challenge and hardship, was treated so poorly by people who are supposed to be teaching the great values set forth in the Scout Oath.

However, on a positive note, and referring back to the "foreverness" of the removal of membership, this young man will someday inevitably be asked to be a leader in his son's troop (when that time arrives) and showing his credentials -- merit badges earned, rank, signed scout book, etc., and the hundreds of hours of good works he has done in the interim -- who in their right mind would deny him membership? That is, if the Boy Scouts of America prevail as an organization.

I refer back to Fatold guy describing many of his "dates" as having committed the same offense as this young man, and wonder silently -- how many of these who have passed harsh judgement have indeed done the same thing? It's a dirty rotten shame that a handful of people -- leaders included -- have a need to mar the successes of those a little weaker than themselves and in so doing discredit the organization they respresent.

Over the past 20+ years, most of the scouters I've ever known are LDS. Most of you are not . . . at least those who have posted here.

Interesting that the LDS church is so dominant in "directing" scouting in many ways, yet they do not seem to be as "pro" scouting as many of the varied religious faiths represented here.

So . . . to add some fuel to this campfire . . . .

Where are all the LDS scouters?

Is it the religion that drives you to scouts?

Or is it scouting that drives you to the religion?

Are LDS scouters as "pro" scouting as you all are?

Or are they in scouting for another reason?

How do the scouting programs differ from troop to troop, based on the religious affiliation of the CO? Or do they differ at all?

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Some refer to us as the "Mormons".

CRANEACE:

While I may question the etiquette or relevance of your inquiry, I have no problem answering a direct question truthfully, directly and honestly.

I consider turn about fair play. I have some questions of my own to ask you.

Answers:

Do you no longer consider yourself a Catholic?

I am not active in any organized religion, but rather I participate with many friends in different religious activities.

Are you affiliated with another organized religion now? Above

What is your purpose for writing the research paper you mentioned in another thread?

Online class.

Do you intend to publish that information? If so, how? Hadn't thought about that . . . probably not.

Who is the group you are working with you alluded to in reference to your research?

Other students, we split up some of the work to get it done faster.

Are you affiliated with any group or organization that seeks to change the policies of the BSA? NO!

As long as we are asking questions:

Are you homosexual?

NO! and I agree that they MAY not make good role models for boy Scouts, however, I think that they are also God's children and should not be banned from "assisting" perhaps as merit badge counselors in their area of specification or the like. And by the way, homosexuals are women too, I wonder how many women scout leaders are in fact homosexual . . . . and no one knows it because they don't carry on about it half as much as the men do. . . .does it make them less capable . . . . of course not . . . . are they bad examples for boys? For girls? . . . that's a whole other thread I think! Also, as stated before, I don't think that adulterers, cheaters, thieves, unwed mothers, etc., make very good examples for youth boys or girls. But then, would there be a BSA? Or any other large organization?

Would you like to see girls become members of Boy Scouting?

Girls can be members of boy scouting as Explorer scouts . . . . but you knew that! BSA is a private organization. It's board of directors should decide that, not because of pressure from outside sources or complainers.

All of these questions are equally valid to yours.

True you are, but I only asked one question,

but to oblidge now you have the answers . . . .

do you all feel better about the previous criticism posted?

Again, you have more than answered many of my questions by your behavior. Too bad though, you could have just been straightforward and answered or as previously stated avoid this thread.

Do some of you have to put your 2 cents in EVERYWHERE?

This has been very interesting.

No antiBSA website.

Thank you for pointing out that many of you have had nothing but good experiences in BSA. Others perhaps have not had the same. Just looking for a sampling, but I guess it was sort of thoughtless not to consider that most people on this forum would be pleased with their experiences. It was just a thought. There are plenty enough anti-BSA sites and I don't condone that either.

EVMORI

THANK YOU!!!!AND AMEN!

Check out OGE's profile . . . . he gave himself the title!

OGE,

At least one thing I'll give you . . . you are a self acclaimed know-it-all, making you no more than a know it all than anyone else.

I've not read ALL of the threads and so yes, I must have missed that Merlyn has been asked to leave also . . . . how rude to ask someone to leave because they disagree with you . . . . and that goes for anyone else who tells someone to leave . . . how rude. . .

If you don't want to respond to this or other threads no one is making you . . . just ignore them! I've said this before . . .

Obviously my querries have pushed you out of your comfort zone, so don't go there . . protect yourself . . . do something else . . .

but don't ask me to leave because I ask a sincere question . . .

Don't respond if you don't like it . . .

You waste this time with this bantering and lose the whole purpose of the thread. I've noticed your responses in other threads do the same thing.

Okay, I'll respond to this one.

I've been reading over many other threads and notice a constant battering of participants by each other . . . it is courious to me that some profess atheism and some profess Christianity, but each one seems to condem the other for their opinion.

It is my querry as to what religious affiliation you are connected with to better understand the points of view. Most of us admit that our religious training and background (or not) influences our opinions and personalities for the rest of our lives, whether or not we stay active in that religion.

It is so courious to me that Scouting is so connected with religion, as to be almost a religion of its own. I'd like to put all these opinions and comments in perspective with the teachings of that person's particular religion.

Note to Merlyn: I have read your comments about being an Atheist and it is courious to me also that no one has asked you to leave the scouter forum, based on the BSA connection to religion. I've never been in a foxhole either, but I respect you and everyone else for whatever you believe or do not believe.

FYI I was raised Catholic and at present consider myself a Christian.

What religious denomination do you connect yourself with?

Well, thank you all for critiquing our qualifications and motives.

Just like a dysfunctional family you have attacked the one you don't agree with, rather than you leaving it alone. It is obviously okay for all of you to say and feel what you want about the presentation of this subject, while you believe it is not okay for us to present it.

Your responses show how off task you all are since you have not addressed the subject, any one of you. You have just attacked the questioner. As stated above, if you have this type of info and you want to share, post it. . . if not . .. . move along. . .

Criticism and cynicism only give reason for one to consider sharpening an ax and what a waste of time! This has given great insight into how folks like you think and behave when confronted with a new idea, or perhaps one that is nawing at you, but you are afraid to address. The subject is not necessarily out of place, but the responses are rather intriguing. They make one consider that you all may be the ones hiding something or denying some truth about the organization you belong to.

Another classic example of opinionated thinking of "I have freedom of speech but you don't."

These responses help us a great deal in our research. Thank you.

You don't have to "trust" me. Once you post it, the information is public. If you don't have anything to post regarding the subject then don't post anything. Obviously, you are not individual who we are seeking information from.

Not looking for witches.

and I do know a Scout Exec who took a "donation" of $2500 and then signed off on an Eagle project that no board wanted to.

No contempt . . . some bad experiences.

I hear things on talk radio, have seen things posted here also, have had experiences with good and bad leadership, in BSA and elsewhere, which is pretty much the way life is . . .

and no one said that research is foolproof . . . just research. . . if you have nothing of this type to post to this thread, then don't . . but please don't criticize if YOU don't know what's going on. That seems a little biased.

OGE,

More information was gathered from Irving.

No that was not a "research" paper.

As above, BSA is not the only organization we are looking at. . . .

Bibliography . . . of course. IT is not the intention to descredit any BSA affiliate, just to gather information regarding reaql life situations that may appear "unfair" or "unreasonable", or such treatment that is even contrary to the organizations own policy. . . We will consider any items "allegations" and realize that we may not have all the facts.

It sounds like you have something(s) to share.

I'm a little confused. Moral/immoral?

If that is the issue, then would you ban a "straight" man or woman who has cheated on their spouse? Is that not "immoral?" whether it's the Military or BSA, would there be many mambers if you banned this group due to immorality?

Thanks for the advise. The topic is not isolated to BSA, just thought I'd use this communication to gather information. Research is being gathered on how large organizations including corporations and religious institutions, respond to allegations of and against their members and how they handle the outcome of their responses or verdicts as it may be . . .. Other organizations are being studied also . . . this one is my assignment.

I'll look through the other threads also, but I hope that others will post something here too.

Is there anyone who is willing to share, omiting names of course, situations where BSA or BSA representatives have either misused their position, taken bribes to give out Eagles, removed scouts without just cause, or any other matter that seems discrimmatory, (one is allowed to do it but not another) unfair or unreasonable treatment toward scouts. I'm not talking about gay or agnostic issues. Information is needed for a research paper and will remain confidential.

Due process -- maybe it did happen?

In one day from the hours of 10 am and 2 pm, to make this decision, could that really be due process?

Too bad the BSA has to be "consistantly negative."

or consitantly vague, or consistantly harsh.

From what I have heard about other situations here today,

I see that this scout is not the only one and because it happens all the time and thus is acceptable, it is even worse.

BSA officials should hold themselves to the high standards expected of boys.

Its also too bad that a leader cannot stand up and call the kettle black . . . obviously you do not agree with the BSA, but want to be a leader for them . . . why I ask . . . .what good are you doing as a leader by not expressing your disagreement. A leader, I think, should be willing to speak out and make changes. . . . Reform!

Yes, that fear of the same treatment . . . how sad . . . what ever happened to Freedom of Speech? A good leader under those conditions will eventually quit because he cannot continue knowing some of these practices are just plane wrong.

One would run for the door. One would run for the news reporter,

Ont would think better of people who are running this organization, that is what makes ones' disapointment even greater when the facts are spilled.

FOG - you refer to inner circle, some of us call it secret combination. One would think they would not want to participate in this hypocritcal organization.

Thank you, and yes, a phone call has already been placed. The last scoutmaster is mediating with national. But as stated by many in this forum, it happens all the time for no reason and one would suspect it will continue to happen to the unsuspecting or to those whose donation to BSA is not as great as Joe Blow next door.

Interesting that so many have similar stories to tell. How do the Boy Scouts manage to keep this stuff quiet?

Don't we call this discrimmination?

It is realistic that BSA will decide and that's that.

Gay or not gay, sex outside the bonds of marriage is immoral. SEX, SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, not touching, not looking at pictures. I'm not condoning these behaviors either, but it is SEX and sexual orientation we are talking about and not curiosities, isn't it?

Checkout FatOldGuy statement above and see why BSA should better define what it means by morally straight. . . . what it means by "does not meet membership criteria." Because they are not just ousting gay men, they are ousting curious little boys also, while they allow other men who have live-in girlfriends or who cheat on their wives to be leaders.

BSA policy should protect the children requiring more from adult leaders. There is nothing wrong with that. But we ALL know an adult BSA leader who is "immoral" while they expell scouts for being curious -- with boys and with girls.

And yes, perhaps this should be another thread, because the original question is still in question.

Can an Eagle be recinded with just a phone call? Does anyone really know?

FOG -

Thank you for your comments and openness about pointing out that most boys behave badly at that age and if that's why he can't have his Eagle, or even have membership in BSA, then BSA had better close their doors and send Scout Executives out looking for a "real" job.

Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why:

The matter is not yet settled so ALL of those answers would not be accurate. Here's the scenario though.

Age 12, scout makes a mistake . . . with a 12 year old girl, termed "innappropriate touching".

Girl does not stop scout. Girl is not forced by scout. It does not happen at a scouting event. Girl does not report this until both are now age 14. It is a one time event.

Both set of parents meet and guidelines are inacted including no sleepovers at the Scout's house. (Scout has a sister the same age who is friends with girl.) Scout is punished, taken to professional counseling, counseled by clergy, and even placed on medication for depression.

Scout earns Life and completes his Eagle Project.

Girl has older sister who comes home from college and is vendictive about getting Scout for this. (Although older sister has 2 illegitamate children herself) She tells everyone and anyone who will listen about the dastardly deed done by the scout.

Girl babysits for new scoutmaster's children and his wife is friends with sister. They decide to "get" the scout.

Wife of scoutmaster gets the girl to reveal information about the incident, now more than 2 years past. Wife reveals info to commissioner and scoutmaster husband.

Commissioner calls BSA District and reports scout as a "child molester". (third party information, hearsay, the victim did not reveal it to him.)

Scoutmaster assaults scout at a scout activity, due to his outrage at scout's behavior 2 years ago. . . is taken to court and "gets off" on technicality.

The day after the assault, the scoutmaster calls child protective services and reports the scout as a child molester. (and lots of other not so nice and not so true things about the family.)

CPS investigates and finds no evidence of these accusations.

CPS clears scout.

In the interim Scout Exec writes canned letter of removal to parents.

Parents appeal to region, denied. Appeal to national, denied.

After a year and a half of this "process" parents privately appeal to district leadership and are advised to go ahead a enroll scout in another troop, which they do, which the counsel accepts.

Scout attends meetings, earns another merit badge, collects letters of reference, etc., prepares to return to Eagle board for final approval.

Scout is reregistered x 2 more years. Scout attends meetings.

No leader wants to take scout to Eagle Board for fear of interferance and recommendations are made that scout should go to a different district/region to see Eagle Board.

Scout goes to another district, registers, sees Eagle Board, is approved, is sent the Eagle Award.

Father wants to have a formal presentation, makes announcement at church at a Sunday meeting.

Monday (next day) The national office receives a call from "someone" who reports Scout as ineligible.

Without notice or investigation, national contacts the Scoutmaster of troop where Eagle was awarded and requests return of Eagle award, but gives no reason, stating only, "The parents should know."

The request is not made in writing.

I thought that it was recinded for Ted Bundy . . . but that would be understandable.

It would be logical and ethical to "investigate" allegations on a scout prior to removing him from membership, but let's say he is removed without the benefit of an investigation, by allegation only.

If/when he later re-enrolls in the same troop or another troop, his membership is accepted and he begins to earn merit badges. Time passes, let's say at least 2 years, and the scout is enrolled in a different troop where he earns his Eagle award. The original accusing person hears of this and contacts the national office bringing up the original uninvestigated allegations.

Could the scout be subject for recinding of the Eagle award, based on allegations that were never investigated?

Would one phone call to the National office be enough to recind the Eagle, without investigation? (even though the parents can prove the allegations false.)

Should a scoutmaster respond to a phone call request to return the Eagle, without explanation of why?

What documentation should a scoutmaster request/require before returning an Eagle Award?

Should the Scoutmaster become the investigating agent?

What happens when national refuses to inform the scoutmaster of the details or reasons why the Eagle should be returned?

Does this redinding happen often?

What is the procedure?

Certainly it would take more than a phone call.

Should the parents be notified?

Des the age of the Eagle Scout make a difference?