adc294

I haven't left the building, Gunny... I like to follow the wisdon of Abraham Lincoln who said: "It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt", and: "Never argue with a fool because innocent bystanders won't be able to tell who is who".

I am glad that my question has stirred such debate, but the question stil remains: "Under One God...but Whose God"? From my perspective, many here have no clue. Most wouldn't recognize him if he (or she) stood right in front of them. I guess we will know at some point in time...or will we?

Religion is a man-made thing. Many of our beliefs have been twisted from day one, and still are. How can any of you say you know God? How arrogant!

We are not teaching the kids (boys, youth, scouts) to use a weapon. Hopefully many will go on to defend our country or join law enforcement and then learn how to use one (and more importantly, why) Symantics (sp) go a long way in getting a message accross.

As a former NRA "shooting sports" instructor, I never used "weapon" when teaching the boys firearm safety at camp. Gotta tell you though, I sometimes feel the need when communicating with some of you all

P.S. Greeting to WCFC and Camp Sandhill...a wonderful camp!

Bubbabear

jblake...

Thanks for the vote of confidence. There are many patches I would not wear on my uniform...my "Southern Drawl" interpretor strip, my "Roadkill" patch (upside-down beaver with tire tracks) or my "Un-Trainable" patch...and so on. Neither would I wear my OA "spoof" patches.

Why do I see so many "long-term" scouters wearing approved patches incorrectly? I have seen Quality Unit patches worn like hatch-marks down the sleeve, Commissioner Arrowheads upside down, two or three jamo patches. How many of you scouters wear blue jeans with your uniform shirt?

Come on fellow scouters, lighten up! Why open up another can of worms?

I find it sad that so many scouters find it necessary to take the fun out of being a scouter.

While a patrol patch may not be recognized for adult uniforms, it does serve as an example for the boys while at the same time making a game for the adults to play.

As a Scoutmaster, I started an adult patrol for just those reasons. Our patrol was the "Clueless" patrol, sporting a brite green question mark on the tan background and the name "Clueless".

Whenever the boys would come to one of us and ask what they should do, our response was, "I don't know, go ask your (patrol or senior patrol) leader". They learned before too long to look to each other for answers. No one was insulted or demeaned. At the same time, the adults had fun doing their assigned or assumed responsibilities. Most importantly, we functioned as a team, just what the patrol method is all about.

Are we goofy? Maybe, but at least I am having fun while getting the kids to have fun. Thank God I am not required to be a stiff while donating my time.

So for those of you who scoff at the concept I say, "If it works, do it." If you have a better idea, do that. Please don't try to make all of us conform to one mold.

In Scouting,

Bubbabear

I have, over the years, recieved many handouts during training for fire building, knot tying, etc. Problem is that they have been reproduced so many times that they now turn out illegible copies...does anyone know where on the www new printouts can be had??? I have looked in MacScouter and Scouter.com but was unable to find anything. Thanks

SR540,

I understand and agree. I'm getting old and forgot why I stopped using this forum once before. Thanks to all for reminding me. See ya on the trail...

Jake

Terry...gotta tell ya... I'm an educated man but I have a hard time understanding just what good this particular sub-forum does. It appears to me that the it consists of pundits primarily. I have posted here, yes, but in retrospect believe that I was suckered into it thinking I was actually benefitting Scouting. I fear that this forum actually does more harm than good. I have flagelated (I am sure) in my thoughts posted here but have come to my senses now: I support Scouting as it was, not as some would like it to be, or even as it is in some cases now. I also support your right to censor persons or comments posted here.

Okay, I agree...it's a matter of priorities. Not all troops require the wearing of the uniform to each meeting, though. I found that having a "Class B" shirt worn three of the meetings and "Class A's" the full uniform once per month made the boys more receptive to the notion of wearing a uniform. The idea of buying a larger uniform is a great idea!

Thanks.

Hunt,

Thanks, that was a good article I had apparently missed. I've scoured these thrift shops too but to no avail.

The notion of the kids buying the uniform is a great idea but I can't think of kids I have worked with that would have been willing to do that, they seem to be more interested in buying games and Ipods and stuff with the money they earn.

I'm going to try to develope that idea though.

Local,

I would hope that they wouldn't be offended but I realize now that it is troop leadership that doesn't "enforce" uniform standards. I actually never had a problem when I was a SM.

Geeze, "Stosh"...hadn't heard that name since I was a scout myself! Great name.

Anywho, I am entirely in favor of the uniform. It seams to me that many of you posting these replies are from areas that have a much better economic base than that of Appalacia.

Trust me when I say that I know of all the methods of aquiring "experienced" uniforms and have used them all.

I would like for my son to wear a new uniform but then he would stand out of place amongst the other boys and maybe seam to be condesending as such...not our intention.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

I think I have found the answers I am looking for. See y'all on the trail!

Hunt, sorry, I don't agree. It is true that at this point in time it may not be probable but it never will happen unless Americans start organizing to take back our country. I know may good people that would be willing just to work in order to pay their bills but the question is: "Are there any business people willing to organize shops for the good" or must it be for high profit?

Out capitalistic society has to draw a line somewhere and being the optimist I am, it can be done.

I appreciate your commements. Sorry, after all the time I put into Scouting, I find it hard to take food from my family's mouth. Shouldn't BSA help support our country by having the uniforms made here? I am sure that there is some clothing manufacturer that would be willing to support scouting by lowering their prices...or is BSA running up the cost?

Don't get me wrong, I understand raising money for the operation of the program...but how can any of us afford a new uniform these days?

I have used and understand the concept of "experienced uniforms" but they are not always available. If we are to use the uniform as part of the program, shouldn't (we) be able afford them?

When we were in Southwest Florida, there was a school there that was devoted to severely handicapped kids. The staff created a scout troop for those boys and put on a "Disability Awareness" Camporee each year.

I suggested this camporee to the boys in my troop and it scared the daylights out of them. After a little coaxing, they decided to attend. I have to tell you, I was even a little anxious about the weekend.

The camporee attached one handicapped boy to each patrol in attendance (or troop if appropriate), and that boy participated in all the other activities for the day...with one catch, each "normal" boy had to assume a handicap of their own (drawn from a hat).

Of all the things I have done in Scouting, that was the most eye opening of all. After "passing the knot", we all agreed that we never knew what it would be like to be handicapped, and noone regretted having attended. The boys who didn't attend regretted it though because all the other boys told them what they had missed.

I am all for a "Religious Diversity" Merit Badge, and even a camporee.

I am a lifelong Roman Catholic, born in the North and raised in the deep South. I attended a Methodist College. I personally do not fear diversity because I know who I am, and respect your stance in life (however wrong you are)

I suspect that idea would be much like sex education in public schools. Children at the age we are talking about are highly influenced and therefore are suceptable to learning things that their parents don't want them to learn. I do not believe that Scouting should hold that responsibility, it's not like learning different ways to cook a hamburger.

Sorry, I just spent a half hour putting together a nice reply and wiped it out in a second!

While I can tolerate and respect anyone's position or beliefs, I hope you understand that I don't have to accept or support any. If you are a preverbial "odd man out", you are faced with an uphill task. I am there time and time again, but is more important what others think of you or whether you believe in yourself?

ASM, I did not mean to imply that Native Americans do not belive in Jesus, that would be clearly wrong. I am sure that God is God and that we all worship the same one in reality...except the atheists of course. You are right, also, in your statement that there is nothing wrong about learning diversity. Sometimes it translates to survival.

OGE...I guess I need to understand my own religion a little better (in all seriousness).

Sorry, I just spent a half hour putting together a nice reply and wiped it out in a second!

While I can tolerate and respect anyone's position or beliefs, I hope you understand that I don't have to accept or support any. If you are a preverbial "odd man out", you are faced with an uphill task. I am there time and time again, but is more important what others think of you or whether you believe in yourself?

ASM, I did not mean to imply that Native Americans do not belive in Jesus, that would be clearly wrong. I am sure that God is God and that we all worship the same one in reality...except the atheists of course.

OGE...I guess I need to understand my own religion a little better (in all seriousness).

OGE...

I guess that is my point. It seems to me that the majority of those opponents to acceptance of other religions (or none)in Scouting belong to faiths having roots in Europe.

While I am Roman Catholic, I have always had a great respect for the wisdom of American Indians. They do not believe in Jesus Christ so does my respect for their culture put me in jeopardy with the teachings of my religion? Also, Native Americans believe that we can not own the land, it belongs to everyone and ever creature. The Boy Scouts of America owns a lot of land, is that a contradiction or a selective acceptance of belief? By the way, do we have Muslims in the BSA (legitamate question)?

For those of you who are advocates of God, how many of you think that the way of the American Indian and their views on a God shouldn't be allowed in Scouting? Their view directly contradict (I believe) those of the Europeans.

Folks,

I am not pointing fingers at anyone...I'ld have to do that to myself first.

What do you suppose will happen if The Ford Motor Company dies? It's an American institution. Likewise, the Boy Scouts of America is an institution. It is what it stands for. It has done well for nearly a hundred years. Whre will the U.S. be if Ford, Boy Scouts and all other institutions die?

Sorry, I for one swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States. I see the U.S. as larger than that.

Got swamped yesterday and forgot about ashes...I've asked my God to forgive me.

By the way, off the subject...you all should take the Myers-Briggs personality test...you will learn a lot about yourselves and how your personality works with others...I play "Devil's Advocate" often too.

ASM915, I think your idea is a good one with one glitch: that duty to my God couldn't possibly mean duty to no God. You either believe in God or not. Those of us who do, believe that those of you who don't will suffer eternal damnation. How can the two possibly mix? Once again I say don't join an organization unless you support it's premises.

packsaddle,

The concept of this thread is not the reason I left the forum before. I left because many of those posting, beat their personal opinions to death. I don't think that it gets anywhere and I guess moreover, I don't think that the majority should be forced to accept the opinion of the minority. Sure, sometimes change is good, the world changes contantly. If it hadn't been for Nixon going to China (he built his career on being anti-communist), Wal-Mart wouldn't be selling the junk they do (and making us smile when we do).

I think that it is appropriate for groups to choose their courses without the threat of being forced to accept unpopular beliefs of others.

You and I don't know each other but I think that we could be friends despite our differences...it's called respect.

Long Haul...

Yes, it still doesn't make it right.

I was involved in organizing an OA Sectional years ago. I was asked to say blessing before lunch. Being Catholic, I naturally said a prayer which included reference to Jesus Christ. After the prayer, a leader of Hebrew faith approached me and said "I thought this was a non-denominational thing." He was right of course, and I haven't made that mistake since.

If the Scout Oath requires us to do our duty to God, how can an atheist do that? I personally don't think that we can hold some of the members to one oath and others to another.

I choose to stick with God because I don't think that I could have developed the character I have without His (or Her)guidance, and the guidance of my family whom also believed.

You know, this is why I left this forum once before. The concept of this thread is: "If we are one (nation) under God, whose God would that be?

In all respect to your individual beliefs, I had hoped that the posters on this thread would stick to that topic. Unfortunately, there are those of you whom have your own personal agendas and therefore like to monopolize all media for the broadcast of that agenda...

I personally do not care if you worship God or not, I do care that strength of the Nation I live in is being undermined by having unpopular personal beliefs forced upon me whether I like them or not. I believe that the Boy Scouts of America stand for something and that if you wish to be a member, follow the majority; if not you can belong to a Scouting movement in another country where your beliefs are accepted.

I am not a zealot for either side of this issue, but one thing stands out in my mind: forcing me to accept your side of the issue (any issue)is like forcing you to accept mine. If you don't want to support what my organization stands for, please don't disrupt it.

Now, this is a Boy Scout forum...so "one nation under God" does not actually fit here but "one organization under God" does. While I would not conciously discredit a boy for his personal beliefs, I would use all mine to show those boys the importance of respect for those differences. Acceptance doesn't always come easily or for that matter at all. Learn to live with it, this is America.

I never understood why a democracy like ours didn't follow the majority rule concept...that's because we are not a democracy, we are a republic by representation. One representative can vote for the minority of his constituents if he so desires, majority doesn't rule.

Now, can we get back to the origional subject? Sorry if I offended anyone.

I'm not sure I understand how aetheism can be a religious belief.

OGE...you're a good man.