ChuckSt8er

I'm looking for common practices on getting Den Chiefs from an affiliated Troop versus sourcing them from nearby but non-affiliated Troops.

If your affiliated Troop can't meet the demand, do you turn to neighboring Troops?

Do you have an open policy where all Troops have equal opportunity to fill DC positions?

Does this policy change when the scouts reach their Webelos years? Would the affiliated Troop get preferential treatment as the boys come down the home stretch towards Crossover?

Backstory, for perspective: One Bear Den in our Pack has a DC from a neighboring Troop who has stepped up and is doing the job well. Senior Pack leaders are insinuating that our affiliated Troop has 'dibs' on the Webelos year, and that this DC will need to fulfill his POR elsewhere next year. Comments? Insights?

I have a strong opinion on the subject, but want to open myself to the wisdom of the crowds and policies of BSA. What sez you?

(This message has been edited by chuckst8er)

There have been some questions about unit size - - let me clarify: The Pack has about 70 boys, the Troop has about 50.

Beavah - a thoughtful answer to a complex question, but I think (in light of the unit size above) your input helps most. Shortridge, +1 as well.

There have been some questions about unit size - - let me clarify: The Pack has about 70 boys, the Troop has about 50.

Beavah - a thoughtful answer to a complex question, but I think (in light of the unit size above) your input helps most. Shortridge, +1 as well.

Not sure if this belongs in this forum or another one, but I'll fire away:

An adult in our Unit holds the positions of DL and CC, is an ASM in our affiliated Troop, and has just fielded (and possibly accepted) an offer to become COR.

There are some who believe that this level of position holding by one individual is counter to Scouting's leadership model (that inviting more adults to become involved and trained leaders is a good thing), that it may cause a leadership vacuum were this individual to step out of the picture, and that there might be 'transparency' issues if a problem were to arise and only a few individuals knew what was going on (e.g. missing Unit funds, identifying new leaders to join the ranks, etc.)

Contrary to this, others might say "Hey, this person has the time, energy and skill set to hold down these position. If they're willing and able to serve, who are we to get in their way?"

OK Scouters, Critters and Brothers, what's your/Scouting's opinion?

Before today, I would have never even imagined that this would be a question I'd post here. To me, if you're registered to be a leader (Den, Co, Asst, whatever) at a level, and you put in the time to do the requirements, then you've earned the thread. Leadership is leadership, and we should encourage and reward leaders.

But during a training session today, it was suggested that Asst Den Leaders might not be eligible for an award because of the language in the Leader Training Award requirements *technically* would exclude them:

Webelos Den Leader Award, Performance Requirements, Requirement #4:

Have an assistant Webelos den leader who meets regularly with your Webelos den.

Requirement #12:

Hold regular den meeting and activity planning sessions with your assistant den leader.

Source: usscouts.org, "Scoutings Knots: Webelos Den Leader Award", updated 2/28/08

Now, if we're going to get into minutiae here, a leader only has to complete 7 of the 12 performance requirements to qualify under this section, so technically, an ADL could just try to pick two different requirements.

But my real question is whether or not Scouting intentions are to recognize and award the DL, or extend this to the ADL who completes the requirements?

Perspective?

Hey all:

I have raised my hand to plan our District's PWood for 2009 and am looking for two things:

- We seek a baseline for our budget, and are looking for copies of other districts' Pwood budgets for reference.

- I'm also looking for any resources for planning District Pinewood derbies. I see boatloads of "how to plan Cub unit derbies", but haven't yet seen one that addresses district events.

If you have something that can help, please post a reply and we can figure out how to share this info.

Many thanks!

Thanks all. You confirmed what I suspected/knew - - I was just hoping that there was some sort of loophole that I was unaware of, but turns out the rules I was familiar with were indeed the rules.

The bad news is that I stood by and kept my mouth shut on this because (a) it literally was my son's first activity with this Den and I wanted him to get to know the rest of the guys and (b) this was also my first activity with this Den and was hesitant to walk in with puffed chest claiming that 'I knew all the rules and they didn't.'

The good news is that (a) there were no incidents that happened on this event that would have put the leader/CO at a liability risk and (b) I've signed up to be the Pack Trainer, so I can actually approach these things from a position of knowledge/guidance rather than newbie know-it-all, and we can find other fun ways to build Den fellowship (other than camp-ins) in the future.

Thanks for your perspectives on this issue.

As one of the first activities with our new Pack, the Bear den for my older son held a Den-specific overnighter in the downstairs area of our Chartered Organization. Most outings rules were followed (proper sleeping arrangements, BALOO and YPT trained leaders present, first aid available, good structured activities) and the boys all had a blast. I'm pretty sure, however, that there was no tour permit filed for this activity.

That said, I'm pretty sure that a Bear Den level overnight activity is outside the bounds of G2SS. Based on the description above, is there a circumstance where this activity might be permitted? I'm pretty sure it's not, but wanted to check with the forum before gently bringing this to the attention of my new fellow leaders.

US2BFX

Thanks all - - I had a sense I was on secure ground, but wanted to make sure (ask first, never assume).

Once I went through WB last spring, I finally noticed the pattern imprinted on the Tiger/Cub neckerchief slides and said "Hmmm. I'll bet the guys would like making their own real woggles."

Please help the unenlightened. As a future reward for helping some Cubs complete their knot work later this year, I had planned to "reward" them at the end by teaching each one to tie his own woggle (out of colored cord, not leather), which they could wear as a temporary slide.

I would appreciate my fellow critters advising me if a homemade rope woggle is strictly a WB totem, or if I'm in the clear.

US2BFX

Did a family campout with our Pack at the local Cub Camp. We fed approximately 192 scouts, parents and siblings their breakfast, lunch and dinner, had a wonderful afternoon of den activities/achievements, a magnificent evening program with skits, fun and laughter and a beautiful Sunday Morning service with the sunlight streaming through the trees.

We are tired but we are hearty, and we did it all for the boys.

All:

In your experience, who leads the planning of family camping outings in Cub Scout Packs? We are a larger pack (100+ boys) and have recently involved an ad-hoc group of experienced parents under the guidance of the BALOO-trained Cubmaster (with support from our unit Quartermaster and outings).

This year, the Cubmaster has been only marginally involved; the fall camping trip planning has been led by the Committee Chair with support of a camping committee (mix of parents and Den leaders).

What is the norm? What do you do?

People, people, people...

One hour a week is the amount of SLEEP you''re supposed to get.

Only wearing two hats right now, but they''re keepin'' me busy. The good news is that I''m creating a pretty decent sized wake, and am working hard to have more than one person follow in my footsteps (growing participation in Den & Pack).

So I talked things through with my Chief Operating Officer (wife), who helped me get to this solution:

- Ask the parent/scout to bring in samples of their own work in order to inspire others in the Den to achieve/do more, since they clearly have been able to accomplish great things

- Ask the parent to help be a guide to the rest of the pack since they have truly raised the bar on what can be achieved; if the parent can be a resource for other parents wanting to earn more S&A pins and belt loops, then their rising tide can help left all our boats.

And now, the challenge is what to do with this scout for the rest of the year - - just like the student who excels in class, we don''t want him to get bored. If he''s truly performing to this level, we need to be prepared to put new achievement opportunities in front of him for the balance of the year.

I''m getting closer to making peace with this issue, but more perspectives are welcome.

You''re right, not much to do with the internet.

Cubmaster here, back again to seek advice.

We have a Wolf Scout who graduated back in June. Since then, according to records submitted by Mom, he has earned 32 belt loops and pins. When I asked the Mom last night to verify this (i.e. Did you happen to put the wrong check box in the wrong column?), she directly stated that she hadn''t falsified records, & that her son had earned all these awards. She claims that she didn''t receive some of these awards last year, so it''s not beyond reason that these have actually been accumulated over the past 12 months. (We are fixing a drastically outdated achievement/advancement system that was only barely meeting our requirements).

Anyway, in looking through the reports tonight (we use ScoutTrack, by the way), I see that this same boy is only one activity (not achievement, mind you) away from earning his Wolf badge.

Just for perspective/disclosure, the boy has ADHD and the Mom may have used these activities as a way to help keep him engaged/focused during the summer months. It''s not out of the bounds of reason, and if true, is actually commendable that they relied on Scouting to engage him in this manner.

Advice? Part of me wants to call foul, but part of me knows that within Cub Scouting, advancement is a matter between a Scout and his Akela. And if the Akela says it''s true, who are we to question?

Help me out with this one - - I haven''t yet been able to mentally make peace with this.

Thx.

OK Scouters, time out. I think many of you have missed the original point and request of this post. While I did not mind feedback on the idea of 'mandatory volunteering', my goal in this post was more to get you all to share YOUR OWN UNIT'S APPROACHES. Tell me what YOU DO that has worked.

To put it bluntly, don't sit around trying to blow out my candle. Instead, perhaps light the way with your own insights and experience. Do you have a better path that achieves the same results (more equitable distribution of tasks, rather than continually overloading one small segment?) If so, then share away.

For those of you who feel compelled to spend more time debating this issue, I've spun off the topic of "Mandatory Volunteering" in the "Issues and Politics" forum. For those who want to continue to share your successful approaches and methods as a guide to others, please feel free to do so.

Thanks.

OK, as you were - - please feel free to debate the issue of whether it is appropriate to ask for a Pack to develop and execute plans to require volunteer time/support as a condition of being a member of that one pack (not Scouting in general).

The benefit is that it allows a more even and equitable distribution of labor, rather than continually taxing the "usual suspects" volunteers. The bad news is that parents whose time is stretched may not be able to provide the support that such an arrangement requires, and ultimately will pull their son out of the program.

Debate away.

Great feedback so far - - I appreciate the comments.

A point of reference and inspiration - - when I was at Woodbadge this past spring (I used to be a Fox), our PL re-introduced me to the wonderful and egalitarian concept of the duty roster. As soon as I saw it, the rationale clicked: In what Troop is ANY Boy Scout allowed to continually sit on his tush while the rest of his patrol prepares, cooks, serves and cleans? Jobs are supposed to be shared equally among all participants. If you want to enjoy the benefits of this activity (e.g. eating), then you are expected to equitably share in its preparation. Not everyone does the same job at the same time, but everybody plays a supporting role.

What would we be teaching Boy Scouts if 80% of the Patrol's work was continually done by the same 20% of the group, time after time? And if we want to teach the principle of 'equal support' to our boys, why would we allow participating Cub Scout akelas and families to be accountable to any other standard?

Not everyone on an activity committee is asked to do the same job, but to serve on a team of 5-10 other adults. One person might make recruiting night signs. Another might write and deliver announcements for the school's morning assembly. Another person might put together information packets. Another person might make an informational powerpoint presentation. Another person might write thank you notes to the school and PTA. Depending on the skills and strengths of each team, you assign responsibilities that are appropriate to the group and give them the best chance of success.

My question to a parent who doesn't want to live up to their expectations would be this: Do you believe your reasons for not participating are any more valid than those who did get past their excuses ('I'm too busy.' 'I'm too important.' 'I don't have time to write an email and send it out to the Pack.')? I would also point out that the very real impact of the "usual suspects" volunteering method: The "usual suspects" ultimately recognize they are doing a vastly unequal share of the work, which denies them their rightful share of quality time with their Scout during Unit events. And unless the Usual Suspects are on their way to sainthood, they will become resentful of those who constantly get a free ride. Is that fair? Is that right? By allowing it, aren't we giving it tacit approval?

In the end, I am less concerned about offending those who continually sit on their hands, and more concerned with promoting principles of 'equal support from all participants.' The ultimate benefits to the boys, parents and unit FAR outweigh any perceived risks. And yes, if there are families who will not acknowledge their responsibilities, then there are other Packs within minutes of ours who may not be as concerned with 80% of the work being continually done by 20% of the members. And yes, these parents will be re-introduced to the principle of equal work in person.

As an institution, Scouting upholds the ideal of Service, not servitude. Our Unit believes in walking the walk, not just talking the talk.

But again, that's a little more backstory on how WE are enacting a solution. What do YOU believe is right for YOUR unit, and what are YOU doing?

OK Scouters, I want to hear from a WHOLE bunch of you on this one. We're all coming up on Back to Scouting after our summer 'break' (peals of laughter from most of us), and many Units will soon face the timeless dilemma of how to broaden our base of parental support for Pack and Den activities.

Our Pack is pursuing a philosophy and program of mandatory family support during two activities per year with assigned teams. Unless there is a REAL good reason for doing so, nobody ducks this expectation, not even Den leaders (they only have to support one activity due to their Den responsibilities). We believe that much like any other activity (sports, school) that has an expectation of parental support, Cub Scouting is no different - - for the program to work at its best, it needs a broad base of participation, support, ideas and leaders. No family is exempt. (We also believe that much like being told to eat your vegetables, once the initial resistance is over, it becomes an expectation, and part of your Pack's culture. Shoot, you might even like it (vegetables AND volunteering)).

My interest is not so much hearing your feedback on what we do (though that's welcome), but to have Scouters share their Unit's approaches to this challenge. What works, what doesn't. And more specifically, how do you create and nurture a 'culture of leadership' in your Pack where active family participation is expected and understood as a price of entry and a 'membership reward'?

Speak up! I'm all ears.

YIS -

Cubmaster Chuck

We adopted a pack hat as an alternative to the different hats by level. We sold through our first inventory last fall and parents have been begging to know when we'll have the reorder ready.

The only advice I have goes the same for any style hat - - INSIST that parents write the scout's name on the inside of the brim. I can't tell you how many hats I've collected in the course of 3 years with no way to return them to their owner...

Won't restate what parents/leaders have said above - am in complete agreement with it. One thing I discovered recently is that camp planning (by admin/staff) is a year-long process that pretty much kicks into gear upon the completion of this year's camp. By December, all major staff positions are filled. In February, the first presentations go around to Units. Health forms, t-shirts, special presentations/content/guests. The list of preparation to-dos is mind-boggling. And if it's followed, you get a pretty awesome camp.

For reference, check out our District's Day Camp website at www.cardinaldaycamp.org for the way we have structured, communicated with parents, deadlines, expectations, etc. There's a great parent packet under the Forms and Documents section that's worth reading and comparing with your own experience.

Sorry for the experience you had, but keep the faith in Scouting. You're not alone in your expectations of what "good" looks like and have a right to continue to help others shoot towards this goal.

YIS,

Chuck

For those who have seen a season or two at Cub Day/Resident Camps:

We've all been exposed to a variety of Leadership styles, and I'm curious to know what the feeling is about what's appropriate/works best when one is leading a small to mid-size group of boys and chaperone parents.

I've seen the "less involved" style in which kids/parents aren't really led, but are herded. I've seen the "overtly led" style in which one person establishes themself as the leader and is vocal, sticks to Scouting structure (marching in lines, active buddy system, keeping a tight rein on boys).

The first style is clearly more fun, but can result in kids running wild...inmates running the asylum. The second style may be truer to Scouting's traditions, but may be seen as a bit stiff and potentially "military" in nature.

I'm just curious to know what you all have seen/experienced, and what you have taken away from observing these other leadership styles (or styles not listed above).

All comments/feedback welcome and appreciated.

YIS -

Chuck

I recently gave a session on Cub Scout Annual Planning at our Council's Annual Leader's meeting in Central VA. I believe that a strong Annual Planning session can be the key to establishing the right rhythms, priorities and principles that can prevent the "Oh no, we forgot to ______" discussions that crop up during the year.

You can find the presentation at www.hovbsa.org under the "Super Saturday" link from the main page. Download the PPT presentation to see what we covered.

Ditto on all the advice given above. They've covered the fundamentals - - this can help you give structure to the type of program you want to deliver based on your Unit's historical strengths.

Good luck, keep your eyes on the prize, and be a beacon for all that Scouting can offer boys and their families.

YIS,

Chuck

2 cents:

We are rapidly becoming a gorilla pack, having doubled the size of our unit from 35 to 76 boys in the past year, selling 6x the amount of popcorn over the previous year, and by Centennial Award standards, hitting on all the fundamentals.

My beliefs: If we are doing our jobs at the Cub level correctly, then our units will grow, split and continue growing. Provided the right infrastructure is there, we can and should foster responsible growth.

My beliefs: There is not enough cross-pollination of success among Units. We're run as feifdoms, when we should be united in our support of Scouting (capital S) and not just scouting at the Unit level. A rising tide should be used to spark inspiration and action among all units.

Re: "Too good recruiting" - Consider having packs partner during fall recruiting to let all units benefit from the exposure. Continue the partnerships throughout the year - - joint camping trips, joint Pinewood Derbies, etc. By getting families excited about "the program", they just might be inspired (with the right Unit leadership) to go above and beyond their current program approach - - which ultimately strengths all the Units.

Go and visit others, reach out, share ideas, share activities. In the end, we are not here for the numbers on our sleeves. We are here for the white square knot in the purple circle.