DannyG

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

18 Eagle required MBs can be done fully/nearly fully indoor while 4 (cooking, camping, hiking and cycling) have substantial outdoor requirements.  BSA lost me on "scouting is outdoors" when they added Citizenship in Society merit badge. Most of my Eagle Scouts have said Wilderness Survival should be Eagle Required but yet BSA went with another discuss/research/report type badge.

In addition, my Troop was the only one to camp outdoors during our recent district's Klondike.  In the past the Patrols camping outdoors would be awarded more points...not this year.  In fact, the Patrols who did cabin camping were able to work on sled decorations (earning trail points) and eat in the dining hall while my patrols cooked their own their own meals outside.  They were happy to campout but clearly the pressure and awards are emphasizing indoor cabin camping.

Heck, look at summer camps and the near complete loss of patrol cooking options.  We struggle to find camps that support outdoor patrol cooking.

BSA may say outdoors but their program, district and councils are all pushing more activities indoors (and in some cases away from the patrol method).  Their advertising looks great but not aligned with 90% of what BSA has become.

All I can say is keep up the good work. What do you and your scouts want to get out of the program? Awards?  Ranks? Badges? Or is it about learning life skills? Encourage them to pursue Wilderness Survival in addition to Eagle requirements (7 MBs are elective). If your scouts don't like your district Klondike stop going. Find another one. Keep building skills, ranks and awards will come. 

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

And then you join and realize 90% of BSA activities are meetings and merit badge clinics where you have to write reports while adult leaders argue if googling information for your report was sufficient or if you should have used an Encyclopedia written in 1982.

You must be doing it wrong. 75% of scouting is outing.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Here are some scouting organizations in the US that unlike the BSA serve all youth, even atheists.

Navigators USA - "The Navigators USA alternative scouting program was created to include everyone, and to help each person develop their fullest potential without discrimination. We aim to establish a world without prejudice or ignorance, and to treat every person with respect, no matter their race, creed, lifestyle, or ability. Navigators USA Is A Welcoming & Secular Scouting Program"

https://www.navigatorsusa.org

Outdoor Service Guides (OSG) - Formerly Baden-Powell Service Organization. they changed their name too in 2021.  "OSG believes that all people and all families should have an equal place in the scouting movement. We welcome scouts and their families as they come to us, and we will do our best to make scouting and its activities accessible to every child or adult who wishes to join.  We welcome everyone, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion (or no religion), or other differentiating factors.  We believe that scouting is for everybody. We welcome those who have scouted a long time and those who have never tried scouting before joining us."

https://outdoorserviceguides.org/

Spiral Scouts

https://www.spiralscouts.org/about_us

Another $0.01,

I never heard of them.

3 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Maybe the kids today lack the hormones we had in the 90s.  I can tell you that back then if there was a girl around, a lot of the guys reverted to being inside the high school halls.  Everyone was trying to impress the girl at the expense of the other boys if necessary.  Going to be some sleepless nights for adults who have to maintain a vigil all night to keep the two groups separated.  Going to be interesting when the first Scouts BSA girl in a troop gets pregnant.  Going to make this name change thing look like a molehill.

Kids today are different than 30 years ago. Though they still have hormones. Boy/girl troops put the boys' tents on one side of camp, the girls' tents on the other, and the adults camp in the middle.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

 What I suspect will happen is that the troops that go coed will survive and the other will die; my town has 2 troops, and I suspect that the troop that pulls the trigger on coed first will be the troop that survives. 

I have already seen this effect in my area with linked boy/girl troops. My Cub Scout Pack was sending out girl AOLs 5 years ago. The last 2 years we had girls complete the full program and bridge up. The girls go to linked troops. The boys tend to pick linked troops too, to stay with their den mates even though they are in different troops/patrols. Especially if they have a sister in the program so they meet on the same night and go on the same weekend trips together. Families are busy; they don't want to split their kids up into different activities if they can help it. Single-gender troops are having a tougher time recruiting and keeping numbers.

There is only one scouting organization in the US that serves all youth. GSUSA is Girl Scouts and Girl Guides. 

"Scouting America" sounds more like the program we are delivering to today's youth, and it is consistent with other WOSM organizations.

Quote

our mission remains unchanged: we are committed to teaching young people to be Prepared. For Life

If girls need girls-only spaces, why did they join the former "Boy" Scouts of America? Like a lot of folks here, Boy Scouts was my refuge in middle school when I could pal around with my friends in the woods not worrying about social pressures from school. It was a gender-segregated program. Imagine my surprise when I got to high school and found there were girls with similar feelings and interests. Not all of the girls, but quite a few. Why did we deny them the opportunity of a program that goes outdoors to teach self-reliance, teamwork, determination, and leadership? Before you say girls have Girl Scouts, they are not the same program. Frankly I don't know much about the Girl Scout program, but I know it is not Boy Scouts for girls. (anecdote: Many of the girls I met in high school tried the Girl Scout program, got tired of it and left.) Youth today grow up different. They aren't taught there are different roles in society for men and women. I believe we should all have the same opportunity. 

Not required. But I like to wear performance shirts underneath my uniform shirt. To each their own.

From what I can recall as a youth: I had a parent who was also a registered leader. At the troop level, it felt like the program was harder because I had one less adult to sign requirements. Parents were forbidden to approve their own child's requirements or sit in BOR.  Neither my brother nor I made it close to Eagle. My father stayed in the program long after my brother and I left it for other activities.

Now as an adult, I can speak from both experiences. I started as an adult of a Cub, where I could guide and encourage my young scout from the sidelines. Later on I became a den leader. Then my attention was on the entire den and I had to let go of the focus on my own scout. I feel like it led him astray some, but it also led him to be more self-guided. He is still in the BSA program. I have seen den leaders and their kids "burn-out" and leave. But I think it has to do more with the program, how it changes as the scouts age, and how the kids themselves grow. Not every scout is destined to Eagle. Some kids enjoy the Cub Scout program, but don't like the outdoors program focus in BSA. Some kids find a troop, never been a Cub, and they make excellent scouts. Everybody takes what they need from the program, as long as they find their way into the program to learn and grow. Everyone walks a different path.

I think it used to be policy to not convoy. Still it is best practice to avoid them. Even if you meet together and travel as a group, make sure each driver has directions and knows where the destination is. Drivers should be focused on the road, not trying to stay together in a convoy. Have a plan to communicate, whether it is by cell phone, walkie-talkie, whatever.

17 hours ago, Eloisefig said:

Not really. The parents just sit in the other room. Scouting is the main topic of discussion but I either get the sense that they don’t think there’s a problem, or if they see it, they don’t want to help. CC(on his way out) and SM can say they welcome change as much as they want, but if they don’t support/back me up, the others just think I’m trying to take over. 

I would start talking to the other adults in the room. Do they like the program the way it is? If others think the program can improve they can help you. Do you know the CC succession plan? If I am CC and I have a SM that is absent every other week, I would be concerned. Are there registered ASMs/adults to keep 2-deep leadership? Or, you might have come across a group that thinks this is the way scouting goes, is happy with adults running the show, doesn't care for a strong PLC/patrol method... You will have to figure out if you can lead change in this group, or cut your losses and find a stronger unit.

41 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

For families they “just stop coming” how hard has it been to get these items back? 

They know the deal when they sign up. Usually they are friends with someone in the Pack. We get most of them back. 

You have a vision. Now find a coalition and communicate it to them. Does your troop have adult committee meetings? That is where you discuss your concerns and find other adults willing to help. You are not going to fix this by yourself. 

Yes. It is really expensive. So our Pack follows less strict uniform rules.

The only required uniform parts to buy are the shirt and belt. Webelos have to buy the colors or cap for the pins. Otherwise the official pants, cap, socks, etc. are optional. We have also made handbooks optional.

The Pack purchased 10 or so of each neckerchief so we can reuse them. When AOLs bridge out, we give their neckerchiefs to the Bears moving up to Webelos. The Bears give their neckerchiefs to the Wolves, etc. The official slide is optional. Tie it in a knot, make a woggle in a den meeting, or find one somewhere else (Day camp? Does grandpa have an old one he whittled at camp in the attic?).

The Pack keeps a uniform donation bin. When your scout outgrows their uniform, consider donating it back to the Pack for another scout to wear. Check goodwill stores and Ebay for used uniforms. 

On 4/26/2024 at 3:03 PM, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I don't have much to say on the Eagle project topic since we don't have that in Sweden and haven't read up on the instructions, but reading this sparked a potential initial general view of the line between civic and political: civic is supporting building community in a liberal democracy. To the extent that parties promote policies (often implicitly because everyone in mainstream society agrees) that are consistent with liberal democracy, we count those as civic even though one could argue that technically they are political because a political party advocates for it. That remains true even when, like in this example, mainstream citizens in a liberal democracy actually start taking actions inconsistent with liberal democracy. (The non-mainstream I'm specifically thinking of here is the neonazis in the town I grew up in. They explicitly want to crush liberal democracy, but they are also persona non grata outside their own group and nobody in scouting in Sweden loses any sleep about not listening to them or taking action to prevent them from succeeding.) Uniformed scouts marching in an anti-Nazi march is not like uniformed scouts staffing an "election cabin" to campaign for a particular political party, even though technically being anti-Nazi is a political stand that is also proposed policy for multiple political parties. Being anti-Nazi is being pro-liberal democracy, and thus the scouting backing of what is technically also a policy stand of political parties counts as civic.

Does that make sense? Anybody see any holes?

One of the simplest ways it was described to me as a uniformed adult leader: The scouts should know that you participate in elections. They shouldn't know who you are voting for.

I believe scouting teaches youth to be involved and engaged. BSA has Eagle-required merit badges that teach civic engagement: Citizenship in the Community, Nation, World, and Society. Certainly BSA teaches this in a way to find common-ground with others: If you are out in the wilderness with a group you need to work together and solve problems as a group. We are stronger when we work together. If you take a stand as an individual, what are the repercussions to the group? There has to be a good reason and you should have allies who support you.

Therefore, I believe the Gold Award project doesn't sound eligible as an Eagle project because it is the work of an individual scout, rather than as a team. Where's the leadership? It's not about politics, as I do not believe the Girl Scout did acted in a political manner. The school board and Board of Supervisors did.  The scout created a program to help her community.

Quote

Our young people are smarter than these politicians think. They can smell the stench of rank hypocrisy a country mile away. They aren’t fooled by folks spouting platitudes about the Constitution while supporting politicians who forswear their oath to the document as they toss lit matchsticks at the First Amendment.

They can distinguish a political exercise from an educational one.

Train them. Trust them. Let them lead.

On 4/15/2024 at 11:45 AM, mrjohns2 said:

Her argument is that is 3x the work. An ASM tried to explain to her that this is the process. This is how things get done. Cooking for 11 isn’t easy,  or how it should be done. 

It is 3x less work for SM..... Since the adult "patrol" is cooking for 3 people, not for 11. 

On 4/11/2024 at 11:01 AM, OaklandAndy said:

I feel this so much where I'm at. This statement right here is 100% true. As a pack, we have done all we can do make the program as "free" as possible. This includes offering sponsorships for families with multiple youth and just can't afford it, paying for all the program fees, reducing the "requirement" for a complete uniform, and doing away with annual unit dues. 

Luckily, we have lots of participation with fundraisers and this is the only way we can keep the program affordable in our rural town. Sometimes, I feel like we are doing what the council should be doing. 

Right now, we're looking into getting a pack neckerchief so they don't have to buy a new one every year. But that'll come down to a pack vote. 

Our Pack took a similar approach. We are not "free": unit dues pays for awards and things. But we go as lean as possible.

The Pack purchased neckerchiefs of each rank - So when AOLs bridge out, their neckerchiefs are reused to the Bears den bridging up. The Bears neckerchiefs go the Wolves den, Wolves to Tigers, all the way down.  The only required uniform left to purchase is the shirt and belt.  Everything else is optional. (Tie neckerchief in a knot so you don't need a slide. Or make one at a den meeting.) Books are not even required anymore. The Pack buys one for the den leader. Everyone else is optional. The Pack pays registration for leaders through unit dues: for Key 3 + den leaders; so we aren't discouraging volunteers from signing up. "You mean I have to pay all these ridiculous fees for my scout, plus more money to volunteer? Nevermind."

Families are squeezed, having to make a hard decision to choose scouting vs. other activities. We have used fundraising to defray costs. But when families stop participating in unit fundraising, then what?

Active and engaged scouts. Monthly activities. Year-round program. Personal growth. Opportunities for advancement. 

On 4/14/2024 at 2:04 PM, BetterWithCheddar said:

How many potentially great Scouts either never made it past Cub Scouts or quit too soon because they had one or two disruptive peers that ruined their experience?

Anecdotally, we just had a lapsed scout recruited into our troop who quit Cubs for this same reason. Turns out the family just didn't like the Cubs program, they like the troop program better.

Yes. Maybe your scouts like to play kickball. I think it is an appropriate activity for scouts, not one to immediately step in and put a stop to. Certainly if there is a safety concern, bullying, etc, it should be addressed immediately. Or is the activity getting stale, detrimental to troop morale? If you have concerns with the program, as an adult you should approach the Scoutmaster. SPL and Scoutmaster should work in tandem. I also believe scouts need coaching from time to time. If you have meeting ideas, get permission to attend PLC and present them. They should be meeting regularly. Ours meets once a month. Let the scouts decide how to move forward. We have adults presenting from time to time, when they are invited by SPL and PLC.  You should be counseling and directing the youth to make their own decisions.

As an aside, our troop meetings have turned into a consistent agenda of: opening, lesson, game, announcements, in that order. The scouts really  enjoy gaga ball, but PLC will mix in other games periodically.

My unit doesn't give a percentage, per se....  Rather, after fundraising is done and all the unit expenses are paid for, we take the remaining funds (if any) and decide how much we want to give to FOS.

6 hours ago, Armymutt said:

Here's the link to one of them on the council website: https://www.mccscouting.org/content/115391/2024-Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast--Girl-Camporee-of-the-East-Coast
 

I would refuse to let my daughter go to one of these if offered in our council.  Every group faces challenges.  We wouldn't have a "Military Dependent Camporee", even though those kids routinely have to move, make new friends, get pushed around, don't get selected for Vigil, have a harder time making Eagle, etc.  

Scouts is life. If there is a demand, somebody is going to meet it.

On 3/31/2024 at 5:22 PM, Armymutt said:

I haven't experience Scouts BSA yet, but I hope this isn't the norm.  This sort of behavior and actions can make Scouts resentful of the new paradigm of BSA.  

11 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I've also seen Girl-only Camporees.  

This is not the norm. I have heard talk of Girl-only camporees and summer camp, but I have yet to experience one. I have only good things to say about girl troops and adult leaders I have worked with.

If a unit wants to participate in girl-only events, they can schedule their own camping weekends, stay in their own campsites doing their own thing. Scouts in units and patrols can decide on their own what activities they want to partake.  I have no problem. But I believe BSA is a coed program. If the unit is going to participate in district-wide and BSA events, then I believe they should be coed. If they want girl-only programming above the unit level, I think BSA is not for them.

6 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Does not require separate facilities... G2SS is quite clear...

Separate shower and latrine facilities should be provided for male and female adults as well as for male and female youth. If separate facilities are not available, separate times should be scheduled and posted.

Should does not mean must.

 

Right. Signs can be moved. Schedules can be adjusted. Separate times scheduled and posted for youth/adult and female/male is good practice. That the troop was unable to accommodate male troop camping next to them speaks volumes of their leadership.