DannyG

18 hours ago, MattR said:

They're joking, right? What kid is going to brag to his friends that he kept a journal of being active for a month? If you want a scout to be physically active then reward them for hiking 10 miles or going on a long bike ride. This requirement is a farce and everyone knows it. This type of thing is so watered down, such that everyone can get it, that the rank requirements are more participation award than recognition. That's why membership is going down. Asking the adults to work around this mess just causes arguments and frustration. That's why adults don't want to volunteer.

You mock, but somewhere there is a kid sitting at home on his device that needs to start being physically active so he can train to participate with the troop on a day-long hike, a canoe trip, a long bike ride, whatever. We have some kids who struggle. Everyone is different. For some the requirements are easy, for others, some might take a little work. I watched my son complete the physical fitness requirements and MB as a young scout, and no, it wasn't difficult for him. But there was a sense of accomplishment. That the activities he participates in and effort he made has a difference in his fitness. So he can participate in the challenging physical activities with the troop. Remember we have volunteers at the unit level. They are not high-level professionals training for years to conduct the program. So we might have to spell it out for them. 

The point is to encourage young people to make moral and ethical choices. I watch kids at summer camp skip breakfast and go straight to the trading post to load up on candy bars. It might work for a kid in the first year program, but not so well for the ones spending all day on the ropes course, or training for the mile swim. Some have to be told about the food pyramid. While the mess hall food isn't always the best, it has the nutrients they need to get through their daily activities. 

So I see where the program goes askew. It is the focus on these seemingly mundane requirements. When the focus is really on going outdoors, having adventures, having fun. If you focus on the latter, the requirements will happen. It is not about checking boxes in the handbook. We need to give kids the "why" to complete them.

10 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Rather than try to compete with youth sports, Scouting just needs to acknowledge it's fundamentally different and position itself as a compliment or alternative. We might consider making the program more inviting by offering additional day camps or 1-night camping options. I find this preferable to an indoor program (or no program).

If this works for your unit, then I say try it. It worked very well for us in Cub Scouts to have open campouts. Join us when your schedule allows so you don't have to write-off the entire weekend. If you have another obligation Friday night, but you can camp with us Saturday night, then join us late. Or if you don't have the personal gear or are unsure about camping out the entire night, make it a day camp and join us for activities. This works well with Cubs family camping, with parents providing transportation to/from camp and staying. Logistically, this sort of transportation arrangement for a troop is tricky (adults have to be on the charter, YPT and background check, to stay at camp). Our troop has allowed it on extenuating circumstances (ie. parent drops off kid at camp late and leaves) but it doesn't always work for everyone. Sometimes the troop is camping for fun nearby, so we can make it work out . Sometimes the troop is out on a trek in the wilderness and you wouldn't be able to find us as easily. But I think we have to realize this gap exists on the older side of the program, not just Cubs.  I see both sides.

One big reason why families choose travel sports vs. scouting: parents travel with their child. A lot of adults don't like camping in the woods; whether they don't have much experience in the outdoors, they don't have the equipment, the arrangements are not comfortable, they don't like the bugs, whatever. But they will travel and stay in a hotel. The parents are nearby to keep an eye on their own kids. Many parents today want to spend their free time with their kids. They don't want to ship them off to other adults and leave them in the woods all weekend. 

49 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

No.

Please read Guide to Advancement, 7.0.4.7

"In most cases, with a fair and friendly approach, a Scout who did not complete the requirements will admit it. Short of this, however, if it remains clear under the circumstances that some or all of the requirements could not have been met, then the merit badge is not reported or awarded, and does not count toward advancement. The unit leader then offers the name of at least one other merit badge counselor through whom any incomplete requirements may be finished. Note that in this case a merit badge is not “taken away” because, although signed off, it was never actually earned. "

Thus, the unit leader signs the blue card again after the counselor completes it. That's the check the merit badge is earned. 

Scouting charges fees to its volunteers to register. I don't know any sports coaches that have to pay a registration fee. The training can be extensive for a scout leader. Sports volunteers might get a rules document to sign, then they just show up. But I also have some stories of terrible youth coaches.

6 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

The organization needs to welcome all BUT needs to clearly define what the organization does and how it does this.

It seems contradictory. Be open to everyone but clearly define what the the program is and how it works?

The promise is adventure and outdoors. Scouting let's you choose how you want to achieve those objectives. They provide the framework. Your unit decides how it is going to meet it.

11 hours ago, MattR said:

If scouting is supposed to be in the outdoors then why is 90 percent of the time spent indoors at meetings. That's just confusing.

Certainly. It shouldn't be 90% indoors. Unless that is what your unit wants from the program.

Our troop spends 90 minutes a week in a troop meeting. There is another 90 minute PLC meeting for leadership. That is up to 7.5 hours of meetings a month. The monthly weekend camping trip is 48+ hours. Maybe spend a couple hours working on a merit badge, citizenship or whatever...  Still, over 80% of the troop time is outdoors. This is the current program. That's the way I envision it to be.

I am grateful for the scouts I have reached. Whether they were only Cubs, if they joined the troop one year and left, or if they stayed long enough to earn Eagle. Everyone walks a different path. Everyone has lessons they need to learn. They all take something from the program, no matter how long they stay with it. The more you give to scouting, the more you get out of it. 

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Of course, I'm learning that families today are different than when I was a scout leader 20 years ago. But, that was our experience. Don't sweat sports. You just need to make sure the program is worth coming back to.

Barry

This is the right attitude. Realize that families are different, sports are different... There are lots more activities and stresses taking up kids' time than there was 20 years ago.  We are not going to have as many kids jumping from school, to sports practice, to scouts, back and forth like they used to. Even though there are less kids in scouting, I find the ones who choose scouting are more focused than ever. Develop a quality program and they will find you.

3 minutes ago, Tron said:

A lot of good points, though I think I want to die on this sporting hill. I think a lot of parents pull their kids from scouting to do sports thinking their kid is something special athletically. I had a meeting with a parent at the troop last night, she raised concern that we're losing a PL for the summer to some club baseball team and he might not come back. I told her it's not likely to work out for the kid; he's in 8th grade, he's like only 5ft tall, 90lbs soaking wet, both parents are sub 6fters and fat. Really what it might be is that scouting is too nice; I deal with some of these coaches with my own kids and it's a joke the yarns they spin to recruit kids. What if scouting pushed the hard sell on parents, think along the lines of these dingleberry baseball coaches "You're kids got it, with my mentoring he'll get in shape, learn how to problem solve, have a bunch of fun, learn how to survive in the outdoors, get his eagle scout, and then from there every top end business school and military academy in the nation will want him! rabble rabble rabble". Do you think we can get carve out on the scout is trustworthy for this? 

I find parents understand the merits of scouting. It's the kids who have trouble grasping it. Sports are fun. They can run around on a field everyday after school, again and again. It's an everyday commitment for a season. If they want to keep up and get ahead, they are encouraged to join offseason programs, another everyday commitment. After you factor in school commitment, then they are practicing/playing sports every day, they are not left much time for other endeavors. Scouting is different. We only meet once a week and have an outing once a month. The rest of the time they are supposed to be working independently: reading the handbook, working on merit badges, etc. Scouting is not only physically demanding; it is mentally challenging, socially and spiritually.  It is hard work. Scouts are free to choose how much obligation they want. It is easy to fall in the sports trap, coaches demanding you practice everyday. It is difficult to lead yourself through scouting.

Then realize families are strapped for time and money. It takes a lot of investment to play a sport, buying nice equipment and travelling around. It takes investment to adventure in scouts, to have good equipment and to keep up abilities (swimming, fitness, etc.). Often it becomes a choice, one or the other. 

14 hours ago, BinTharDunThat said:

I'm continuously surprised that my Scouting experience is so different from others, or at least is appears that way.
When growing up 35 years ago and in our Troop today, we put a special emphasis on Den Chiefs to engage with a Den in a Pack.  Its a near-certain way to recruit a whole Den of new Scouts.
The Troop also puts a premium on engagement with Packs.  The Troop staffs the Cuboree.  The Troop staffs the Webelos Woods/Trail to Troop.  The Troop hosts an October open house directed to AOL Adventure completions.  The Troop hosts an October campout with Webelos.  The Troop tries to camp with the Pack and to cook meals for them.  The Troop helps to recruit Cub Scouts.  We go to the Blue and Gold and receive new Scouts.
We don't wait for them to find us.  They have too many choices.
Are we a rarity in this? 

You are well ahead of the curve.

The Pack my son participated in was not linked to a troop. Therefore once Cub scouts advanced beyond AOL, if they continued in the program they found a troop under a different charter and left. Older scouts came to Blue & Gold receive them at crossover. Afterwards they were never to be seen again. When we attended Webelos camporee, they encouraged Cubs to visit Scout troops linked under the same charter org in their camps at night. Instead our Pack was left to spend the evening on our own. The troops invited their linked Cub Pack to join them on an overnight campout. We were invited to a day trip. (This was all during Covid years). So the older program was a total mystery. On the plus side, our Pack was free to run the Cubs program how we saw fit and didn't have to share space with a troop (meeting times, activities, storage, etc.)

In my experience, if you want to be seen then you must send Den Chiefs and staff Cub events (camporees, day camps, etc.). Look beyond your charter.  Last year a troop in the opposite situation (no linked Cub Scout Pack sponsored by the charter) found the Pack, offered to lead a den meeting during our meeting time at our space, and invited them to go on trips. In turn, 4 of the 5 scouts who crossed-over joined that troop.

55 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The ASM said we should be recruiting 8th - 10th graders as they may have dropped out of cubs, never did cubs or didn't bridge over to Scouts immediately.  The ASM is a member of our Council's executive board and has raised this suggestion, but the focus is on recruiting Cubs.

I find high school recruits make a different sort of scout.  They discover their friends are training to go on high adventure: Philmont, Sea Base, etc. They decide they want to go too. So they join for a year, go on the shakedowns, go on the high adventure trip... Once the trip is over, we rarely see them again. Crossover scouts are more interested in earning rank advancement and merit badges, especially in the middle school grades. So that they are ready to go on high adventure in high school. Occasionally we get a lapsed scout who comes back later in high school, deciding they want to advance to Eagle at the last minute.

10 minutes ago, Tron said:

The new AOL Bobcat adventure codifies those activities and establishes that troop visits start in September. Now that packs and troops are being told in doctrine that troop visits need to happen often and early I think we're going to see more AOLs crossover. This last minute go visit a troop in Feb-Mar crap has never been good.

Agreed. I am blessed to live in an area with multiple active troops. But so many of the Pack parents are strapped for time, they decide at the last minute to visit one troop in the early spring to satisfy AOL requirements. After they crossover to the same troop, they decide they don't like it and assume everyone does the same program, so they drop scouts. 

First-year summer camp is a big deal and the Cub parents have no idea. We stress to our Pack AOL leader to finish crossover by March so the scouts have time to acclimate to the new troop. Really that's barely enough time. We have already made summer camp deposits and program selections before they arrive. I am thinking they should meet several times with their prospective troop as AOL scouts before crossover.

On 5/11/2024 at 7:11 AM, BetterWithCheddar said:

I wonder if work culture has also had an impact on membership declines.

Both of my parents had good, steady jobs with the same employer for 30+ years, but they rarely worked over 40 hours per week. Today, my wife and are always within 20 feet of our laptops. We log-in during off hours to get caught up or work ahead. At times, I wonder if this is really necessary since our jobs aren't that great; however, they are good enough where we don't want to lose them. I'm sorry to say the thought of taking kids camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting.

Few to virtually none of my troop's parents attend every monthly campout. Instead, we have a pool of adults that are able to go every other month or less and still have enough adult supervision. Frankly, the scouts seem to enjoy the campouts more when less adults are in the way. Many of our adult leaders take work with them to summer camp. They work in the adult leader lounge while the scouts are in MB sessions. They don't put in anything close to 40 hours that week, but they are able to knock out some work hours on WiFi.

23 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I just did a crossover with our primary feeder pack.  The pack has 90 scouts.  Roughly 20 Lions, 20 Tigers, 20 Wolves, 15 Bears, 10 Webelos and 5 AOL.  Of the 5 AOL only 1 wants to continue in Scouts.  That 1 only joined Cub Scouts this year....

I talked with the other 4 parents. 

- They are looking to reduce activities after 5th grade

- All are planning to increase their kids involvement in travel sports.... So no time left for scouts

This mirrors my observations in my area:

• There is a big hole in the program, the bubble is currently at the age of crossover scouts. These kids missed the first years of Cub Scouting during Covid lockdown. Then when these families returned to activities, they limited themselves. Some chose to stick to sports or other activities, so they didn't consider scouting. So fewer kids made it up the ranks in Cub Scouts. It doesn't effect younger scouts as much: Lions, Tigers, Wolves... because they began school/activities after lockdown.
• Families are in a crunch. It takes more and more commitment to choose an activity. Especially sports are not one season anymore. It gets really competitive starting in middle grades: there is off-season training and competitions that last more than one season, etc. Whether it is fall baseball, indoor soccer in the winter, etc. They feel left out if they only play one season of a sport. Not to mention all the costs involved. So if the kid chooses a sport, it doesn't leave much room for scouting. 
• Even though there are fewer scouts remaining, it means the scouts that continue in the program are more committed than ever.

On 5/8/2024 at 5:00 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I would say my troop is pretty outdoorsy. We camp 10/12 months, with a lock in IF possible in December and 2 weekends of Scouting For Food in February, being the 2 months we do not camp. Even during COVID, we continued to meet, virtually and outside, had monthly day trips in the outdoors, and even did our own summer camp. Yes we car camp, but we also backpack, cycle, and do canoeing and whitewater activities. And the Scouts pick Summer Camps with the program they want, with the only caveat being it has to be within an 8 hour drive.

The last 2 batches of Webelos that visited, the activities scared the parents.

I resemble that statement. The thing is those activities that scare the parents of 10.5 year-old crossovers, they want to do them by the time they turn 12-13 years old. So in the last 2 years we have had more scouts join by word-of-mouth, by talking to their friends doing fun stuff like this, than we have had by crossing over kids on their way out of elementary school.

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I never was a fan of units that pencil-whipped kids who had earned AoL through Boy Scout rank requirements. That doesn't mean they should have gone to an extreme and unnecessarily made kids wait to get rank requirements signed off, but rather they could actually, you know, test the kids on campouts to see where their skillset is at. I lamented (about a decade ago now I believe) when they pushed more outdoor cooking requirements down to the Cub program, that it would build more anticipation of kids/parents that would react with "I've already done that" when they hit troops. BSA seemed to knee-jerk course correction entirely in the other direction a few years ago. The bottom line I take as an outside observer to Cubs: the program was fine as was 20-30 years ago. Never should have started introducing all these "pathway" modules, as DLs just got so fixated on ticking those boxes that 1) they forgot it is about having fun, and 2) it created book learners, not experience learners, and that is not ever a good thing for troop program that should be focused on outdoor learning-by-doing. 

Anecdote: My Cub Scout Pack thrived because we scheduled fall/spring camping, a winter cabin weekend, and outdoor activities monthly. Many of the Packs in my area no longer camp outdoors, so we took those Cubs who left and let them join our Pack. I appreciated the chance to help my scouts learn and practice outdoor skills. ie. In Cub Scouts I can teach kids to cook on outdoor stoves and grills while standing next to them. In a troop, they learn practice as a patrol, led by other scouts. Adults are at a distance. When I recruited scouts I explained it is because scouts learn by doing. Not by memorizing and reciting a book.

30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

When the 18-24 month program came out in the 1990s, it was based upon research, and the training of the time emphasized the differences between the two programs and how Webelos needed to start transition in 4th grade. When the training got updated circa 2009, that information was not emphasized as much as the older training.  IMHO separating all the DL trainings into 3 different courses, was a mistake as folks will take 1 training, and assume Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos are all the same. Then going online where there is no human interaction AND folks can just play the training and do other stuff further exacerbates the issue.

There is no different training for Cub Scout leaders. Lions/Tigers/Wolves/Bears den leader is the same as Webelos/AOL. And for a Cub Scout to earn AOL, they only have to participate in one outdoor activity. They don't even have to camp anymore. That's not enough practice to bridge up to a troop who camps monthly. So the scouts are doing a lot of the transition after they join a troop.

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

18 Eagle required MBs can be done fully/nearly fully indoor while 4 (cooking, camping, hiking and cycling) have substantial outdoor requirements.  BSA lost me on "scouting is outdoors" when they added Citizenship in Society merit badge. Most of my Eagle Scouts have said Wilderness Survival should be Eagle Required but yet BSA went with another discuss/research/report type badge.

In addition, my Troop was the only one to camp outdoors during our recent district's Klondike.  In the past the Patrols camping outdoors would be awarded more points...not this year.  In fact, the Patrols who did cabin camping were able to work on sled decorations (earning trail points) and eat in the dining hall while my patrols cooked their own their own meals outside.  They were happy to campout but clearly the pressure and awards are emphasizing indoor cabin camping.

Heck, look at summer camps and the near complete loss of patrol cooking options.  We struggle to find camps that support outdoor patrol cooking.

BSA may say outdoors but their program, district and councils are all pushing more activities indoors (and in some cases away from the patrol method).  Their advertising looks great but not aligned with 90% of what BSA has become.

All I can say is keep up the good work. What do you and your scouts want to get out of the program? Awards?  Ranks? Badges? Or is it about learning life skills? Encourage them to pursue Wilderness Survival in addition to Eagle requirements (7 MBs are elective). If your scouts don't like your district Klondike stop going. Find another one. Keep building skills, ranks and awards will come. 

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

And then you join and realize 90% of BSA activities are meetings and merit badge clinics where you have to write reports while adult leaders argue if googling information for your report was sufficient or if you should have used an Encyclopedia written in 1982.

You must be doing it wrong. 75% of scouting is outing.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Here are some scouting organizations in the US that unlike the BSA serve all youth, even atheists.

Navigators USA - "The Navigators USA alternative scouting program was created to include everyone, and to help each person develop their fullest potential without discrimination. We aim to establish a world without prejudice or ignorance, and to treat every person with respect, no matter their race, creed, lifestyle, or ability. Navigators USA Is A Welcoming & Secular Scouting Program"

https://www.navigatorsusa.org

Outdoor Service Guides (OSG) - Formerly Baden-Powell Service Organization. they changed their name too in 2021.  "OSG believes that all people and all families should have an equal place in the scouting movement. We welcome scouts and their families as they come to us, and we will do our best to make scouting and its activities accessible to every child or adult who wishes to join.  We welcome everyone, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion (or no religion), or other differentiating factors.  We believe that scouting is for everybody. We welcome those who have scouted a long time and those who have never tried scouting before joining us."

https://outdoorserviceguides.org/

Spiral Scouts

https://www.spiralscouts.org/about_us

Another $0.01,

I never heard of them.

3 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Maybe the kids today lack the hormones we had in the 90s.  I can tell you that back then if there was a girl around, a lot of the guys reverted to being inside the high school halls.  Everyone was trying to impress the girl at the expense of the other boys if necessary.  Going to be some sleepless nights for adults who have to maintain a vigil all night to keep the two groups separated.  Going to be interesting when the first Scouts BSA girl in a troop gets pregnant.  Going to make this name change thing look like a molehill.

Kids today are different than 30 years ago. Though they still have hormones. Boy/girl troops put the boys' tents on one side of camp, the girls' tents on the other, and the adults camp in the middle.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

 What I suspect will happen is that the troops that go coed will survive and the other will die; my town has 2 troops, and I suspect that the troop that pulls the trigger on coed first will be the troop that survives. 

I have already seen this effect in my area with linked boy/girl troops. My Cub Scout Pack was sending out girl AOLs 5 years ago. The last 2 years we had girls complete the full program and bridge up. The girls go to linked troops. The boys tend to pick linked troops too, to stay with their den mates even though they are in different troops/patrols. Especially if they have a sister in the program so they meet on the same night and go on the same weekend trips together. Families are busy; they don't want to split their kids up into different activities if they can help it. Single-gender troops are having a tougher time recruiting and keeping numbers.

There is only one scouting organization in the US that serves all youth. GSUSA is Girl Scouts and Girl Guides. 

"Scouting America" sounds more like the program we are delivering to today's youth, and it is consistent with other WOSM organizations.

Quote

our mission remains unchanged: we are committed to teaching young people to be Prepared. For Life

If girls need girls-only spaces, why did they join the former "Boy" Scouts of America? Like a lot of folks here, Boy Scouts was my refuge in middle school when I could pal around with my friends in the woods not worrying about social pressures from school. It was a gender-segregated program. Imagine my surprise when I got to high school and found there were girls with similar feelings and interests. Not all of the girls, but quite a few. Why did we deny them the opportunity of a program that goes outdoors to teach self-reliance, teamwork, determination, and leadership? Before you say girls have Girl Scouts, they are not the same program. Frankly I don't know much about the Girl Scout program, but I know it is not Boy Scouts for girls. (anecdote: Many of the girls I met in high school tried the Girl Scout program, got tired of it and left.) Youth today grow up different. They aren't taught there are different roles in society for men and women. I believe we should all have the same opportunity.