camilam42

@SeattlePioneer;

Umm. I haven't seen anyone post on this thread that they are in any way opposed to uniforming as a method of Scouting, let alone a "faction."

It's a question of how you use the uniforming method in your unit. I've described how I do that several times in this thread, with widely variable results.

Ah yes, my unit. It's ok to bang on my unit and critique my unit and expect me to run back and change my unit to the new way of thinking. I should be saying, "Boys, burn the shirts, put on your blue jeans and let's just say we're Scouts!" Is that it?

Because I daresay, I'm the one who has said several times that I am open to amending my view and my opinion, if provable facts are given. That's all I've asked.

However, when another poster who is on the opposite side of me posts and uses his Pack as an example, we get this, "This describes my Cub Scout Pack's use of the uniforming method.

It produces a wide range of results, from boys who regularly appear in full uniform to boys who regularly appear in just the neckerchief and slide they are issued when they join.

Does anyone care to suggest that this is wrong, bad, inadequate, sloppy or whatever?"

Fro those of you keeping score at home, that was a dare to call him out.

So, in short, it's perfectly ok to bang on the uniforming units as being petty, intolerant, unscoutlike, unkind, and uncourteous, but good golly sakes if we dare say anything against the lassiez faire mentality we get this...I DARE YOU!

And I'm maniacal. Riiiigggghhhttt.

So, you see, it really isn't that I'm close minded or that I don't want to learn. I do. When it comes to the uniforming method, I would like solid facts so that I can have the Scouts get a better understanding as they deliberate for the amendment vote in May. As it is, what I got was that I am a maniac, that I am some sort of modified Nazi-type (talk about jumping the shark, whenever Hitler or his minions are brought in, the Fonz always makes that jump), that I am unkind and vindictive.

No. I disagree. This is about the Scouts taking pride in their method. This is not about undermining another method or holding the Scouts down or having to watch a Scout drop out. They just don't in my troop. We're not an Eagle mill, but we have our fair share. Many boys just age out. Many get too involved in sports and other activities (remember I'm from a small town, where our Scouts are also starting in 3 sports in high school, if not more).

Our challenge is competing against the high school activities. So we use things which stand out to help. The Scouts recognized that the uniforming method was one way in 1985. The Scouts since have agreed. And on this forum I am vilified for sharing my Troop's view and my PLC's history.

So, that's fine. Think me a maniac. I'm not. I'm pretty open and very transparent. It's the others you should be looking out for, they are the one's who undermine...not me.

@ SeattlePioneer;

What is this thread about again? Uniforming. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that one would focus on uniforming on this thread? It would. Wouldn't it stand to reason that the other methods would be discussed in their own appropriate threads? On every other message board I've EVER been to, that is how it works. But perhaps it doesn't here. Perhaps here, we title a thread about uniforms then talk about ideals. If that's the case, then I just need to reevaluate how this board works and adapt.

So, please excuse me for focusing on uniforming in a uniforming thread. I can talk about the other 7 methods just fine, but in their proper place.

As for your description of my Troop, well, you're wrong. I'm speaking about it from my perspective, because I'm the one speaking about it. How else am I to talk about it? From the SPL's point of view? I don't know what's in his head. If you go back and read my posts, objectively, you'll see that I'm supporting the method, through examples of what my Troop does.

I am little more than a facilitator for my Troop. The Scouts do most of the work, they do most of the planning and they do all of the activities. We are there to support them and to be a positive adult influence on them. But I suspect that you don't believe that, because I am...what did you call it? Oh, yeah...maniacal. Thanks for that, btw. I appreciate the piling on of ad hominem attacks. That is really courteous and kind of you.

All of this hinges on the fact that there is a faction of posters here who are opposed to the uniforming method for whatever reason. I gave two of them and those posters will do anything, including personal attacks to get those who are supportive of the method to back down.

I'm not saying that my Troop is perfect. It isn't. There are certain things which we could do better, but our Adult Association method is very strong.

As for the Pack being run by the Boy Scouts, no. The Scoutmaster and the Cubmaster are best friends, so there is a lot of collaboration. Since we're in a small town (roughly 5000), they are the only Pack and the only Troop, so there is a strong connection. The Scouts move from one to the other and that really is the only option. The next closest Troop is 20 miles away.

I am sorry that you see me as maniacal. I can assure you I'm not. I'm very logical and reasonable. I try to keep emotion out of the way, but it does creep in from time to time, especially when I feel threatened. But that's only natural right?

@ BadenP;

Psychotic and vindictive? Just read your prior posts directed at Beavah and then myself, if you can't see those traits in them then there is nothing more to say. For myself I have nothing more to say to you except, may the Great Scoutmaster watch over the youth in your troop.

Pax

Ok, let us do that. A few exceprts. I will only respond to your posts though, not Beavah's.

You say to me at 3/13/2012: 12:20:38 PM: "Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me."

You then say to me at 3/14/2012: 11:01:37 AM: "So to you scout leaders who think your troop is somehow superior because they are fully uniformed and always love to point out at council and district events those units who are not in full uniform, IMHO are just being petty and vindictive and have forgotten what a scout leader truly is supposed to be. [...] Getting hung up over the uniform, quoting passages from a century ago, criticizing those not in full uniform is undignified, unscoutlike, and has NO place in scouting. [...] Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already. We are here to serve the youth not to make some kind of fashion statement."

You say to me at 3/15/2012: 12:08:47 AM "You really need to cool off, have a drink or a valium and calm down. These are discussions not worldwide negoitiations deciding the fate of scouting. Your rude attacks on me and vicious attacks on Beavah in this thread have bordered on the psychotic."

Vindictive and psychotic. Hello, pot. I would like to introduce you to kettle. You have a color to discuss. And it ain't white, neither.

As for my responses to you, I said this to you at 3/14/2012: 5:09:51 PM, "You're right, abusing a method has no place in Scouting, but I think that your characterization is misapplied and wrong."

The only other place where I come close to being vindictive toward you is when I speak of having a lassiez faire mentality.

I'm not going to get into things about Beavah, with you. He's a big fellow. If he wants to discuss things he will. But before you start your character assassination, perhaps you should look at just who is being vindictive here. It isn't me.

@ BadenP;

Are you reading the same thread? I'd like to see where I'm being "vicious" and "psychotic." I'm supporting a method and and getting raked pretty hard for it. I've been nothing, if not courteous and kind, yet I am the one who is personally attacked. I have not spoken about one single troop, other than my own. I have not said that I would impose my thoughts on any troop,including my own.

This is a discussion about uniforming and the uniform method. I've been called uncharitable, I've been called unkind, I've been called an elitist. My motives have continually been called into question and my leadership has been maligned. AND... I've been accused of being a BSA form of Nazi. Yet in your eyes, I'm the one who is being vicious and psychotic. Interesting.

In actuality, BadenP, if you go back and read my posts you'll see that I'm not judgmental. I have been supportive of a great number of posters on this thread. I have supported the methodology of the BSA in it's entirety. And I have used my troop and my experience as the basis for everything which I have stated.

I also have said several times that I have no claim to my opinion being supreme. I have said several times that if someone (actually, anyone) can give solid, factual proof as to why my opinion is wrong, then I will amend it. However, what do I get instead? I get told that I am vicious and that I am bordering on psychosis.

No, this isn't the end-all-be-all of the Scouting world. You're 100% right. But it is a thread about uniforming. It is a thread which for good or for bad lends itself to great emotional outburst. I've tried mightily not to express any emotion, but to ask for rational reasoning. And what I get is an ad hominem tu quoque attack.

Maybe this is how you operate, IDK. To be honest I don't really care, but the topic is uniforming and how do we get an ASM to buy into the uniforming method. I have offered several options and I have discussed the merits of the uniforming method. I fail to see how that is vicious or how that is psychotic. Regardless of your personal view of me, which, btw, I don't care about much either, because you have no idea who I am or what I'm about; my view on uniforming is balanced and it is clear.

Perhaps if I lay it out point by point you might get it a little clearer:

-- Uniforming is a method of Scouting

-- It is a method which my Scouts employ

-- The employment was amended into the bylaws by the Scouts

-- The Scouter is charged by the PLC to help enforce for Scouts and Scouters

-- The expectation is that the Scout and Scouter will both be in full uniform at all approved functions

-- Compliance is governed by the BSA

-- This is binding upon our Troop and Pack

My personal view is that since the uniform method is a valid way of presenting Scouting and is integral to the aims of Scouting, it should be afforded the same due diligence and same respect as the other 7 methods. Has my Troop taken steps to ensure that there is a way for every Cub and Boy Scout to be fully uniformed? Yes. Did it happen overnight? No. Are we 100% compliant? No. Do we strive for it? Yes. Are the Scouters 100% compliant? Yes. Why? Because they buy into the method. Does this mean that every Troop or Pack has to operate as we do? No. Have I ever said that? No. Should every Pack and Troop strive for that? In my view, yes. Because it is a method of Scouting. However, I do know that a good many Scouters will never buy into the uniforming method because of personal bias, past experience, or some other reason. And that's ok. It isn't my role to make sure that every Scout and Scouter, worldwide is uniformed. It is my role to make sure that my Troop is, because that is what my Troop wants.

If you don't like that, fine. If you do, fine. But please don't make assumptions you can't back up. It makes you look bad and I don't want that for you. I want to support you as a Scouter.

@ BadenP;

This discussion reminds me of the debate between the Catholics and the Protestants over who was right regarding the Reformation. Look all of us scout leaders sees value in the troop being in full uniform, but as several have pointed out that is not always possible due to a variety of situations economically and otherwise. The debate then becomes are the troops who are in uniform from the waist up only the same quality of scout as a fully uniformed troop and the answer to that is a resounding YES. Then the debate centers around quality of program with some of the posters implying that the half uniformed troop has somehow a lesser quality program than the fully uniformed troop and that is just plain nonsense.

Since I'm a Catholic, I won't really comment on the Reformation issue. LOL!!!

Interestingly enough, the debate is rarely started from the uniforming method advocates though. Normally, it is from those who are anti-uniforming method. Look at this thread. It is a clear example of it, at least from the time I started posting. At no point was there any form of judgment, just support for the method and trying to intimate the message that the uniforming method brings to the Scout.

So to you scout leaders who think your troop is somehow superior because they are fully uniformed and always love to point out at council and district events those units who are not in full uniform, IMHO are just being petty and vindictive and have forgotten what a scout leader truly is supposed to be. Scouting is a brotherhood that unites all of us to a greater purpose, accepting all of us in scouting no matter what.

I've yet to see that, at least in this thread.

Getting hung up over the uniform, quoting passages from a century ago, criticizing those not in full uniform is undignified, unscoutlike, and has NO place in scouting.

That's directed directly at me. Show me in quotes where I've done any of that? It is an ideal and it is a method. You're right, abusing a method has no place in Scouting, but I think that your characterization is misapplied and wrong. The quoting was from 1985, not 1910. The Scouts, in 1985, used Baden Powell's words as a basis for their amendment to the bylaws, nothing more.

Methods of Scouting are guidelines to help develop your troop program they are NOT mandates from Mt. Sinai so get over yourselves already. We are here to serve the youth not to make some kind of fashion statement. Those of you who are so adamant about full uniforms being the ONLY way probably have been in scouting too long and need to find a new venue to volunteer your time.

Right, guidelines. And guidelines should be followed when at all possible. If one is going to follow the uniforming guidelines, then he should follow the guidelines, not what he interprets the guidelines to be. The BSA has best practices in place for a reason and those reasons are valid. They are not to harm the Scout/Scouter, but rather to show solidarity.

The uniform isn't a fashion statement (at least not for us), it's a method of Scouting. It is a way for the Scouts to be brought to equal footing. Nobody that I've seen on this thread has said that it's the only way, but rather that it is another way. It isn't about the uniforming method to the detriment of Scouting, but rather it is about the uniforming method in support of Scouting.

So, to borrow your line, "Those of you who are so adamant about full uniforms being a detriment probably need to find a new venue to volunteer your time." The uniforming method is an acceptable method and it is one which the BSA upholds as being as important as Outdoors or Patrol or any of the other 5. So, no; no one is dropping the hammer on a Troop or Pack who doesn't uniform, but by golly goodness sake, please don't bang on those who do. 99.9% of the time it isn't nearly as diabolical as you are making it out to be (to continue your biblical parlance).

@ Beavah;

One of the things yeh have to live through whenever scouters get together for the first time is a round of chest-thumping about each unit's great program.

I don't for a second believe that. There are problems in my Troop and there are problems in the Pack which is associated with it. That is not what we're discussing here though. We're discussing uniforming. Right? Isn't that what this thread is about? I haven't delved into my Troop's politics too much, because this isn't the place for it. I have intimated what the Troop's position on uniforming is. Nothing more, nothing less. I can tell you this though, our view of uniforming is very clear and it is very well defined. I know you don't like that, because of the "stigma" that it supposedly places on Scouts, but the truth of the matter is that my Scouts like putting the uniform on. They buy into the Uniforming method. They have fun and are on board with it, because they see the adults who are associated with the Troop having fun and being on board with it.

Now I'm just a fellow at the other end of an internet connection measurin' your words and the nature of your responses, eh? I can't "see" your troop, so you'll just have to forgive me if I'm totally out to lunch. What I have seen are troops of other folks who make the same sort of claims and use the same expressed approach as you are here, and those units I can say from direct observation are more adult-led than the average, in ways that lead to different outcomes with the boys.

I suppose you are just a fellow. And you can't see my Troop, but you can't just assume things like that. It makes you look foolish and petty. Because this is an internet forum, you have to give the benefit of the doubt. I have never once questioned the motives of your district, have I, "commish?" Yet you're questioning my motives and undermining my credibility on this forum, interesting. So, without any basis, you're lumping me in with a group which you have a preconceived notion about, without any basis and contrary to what I've actually presented. Interesting. Now I'm getting a clearer picture of your character. AND that is justifiable.

For example, if yeh read other threads, a substantial majority of experienced scouters here would tell yeh that there really is no place for "troop bylaws" of the sort yeh mention in a youth-led unit. I'll admit to being in the minority in this case, but would gently suggest that what you're calling "bylaws" are nowhere near what real civic organization bylaws are or should be, and in that way would be a poor example to the boys.

I've been involved in Scouting for 31 years, 22 as a Scouter. So, while I am sure that there are many here who have more "experience" than me, I can also say that I'm not exactly a green horn. So, you can gently suggest all you want, but the truth of the matter is that I do have a good understanding of the various methods and aims of Scouting from both a youth and adult perspective. And you have no idea how we impart our knowledge of civics to the Scouts, so I would just quietly back away from that one (our Scoutmaster was mayor of our city for 17 years). You can't possibly stand your ground and convince me that our civic mindedness is misguided. Sorry.

I reckon that we can all do a better job for our boys, and some words from other experienced hands might make us stop and think. But of course, if yeh are already perfect, feel free to ignore this old fellow.

I know I can do better, that is why my opinion is always open to amendment, if provable, through facts, that it is wrong or wrongheaded. My personal pledge to myself with regard to Scouting is (and I'll say it again), "If it's not good for the Scout, I'm not going to do it." I've amended many things over time. We don't car camp. We don't allow junk food. We have adopted a winter lock-in with video games (the one time a year, when electronics are allowed at a Scouting event: save the Scouters having cell phones, Scouts, no).

As for ignoring you, no I shall not do that. Your view continually affirms that my Troop is doing the right thing by adhering to the various methods we employ. Thank you for that. I will continue to glean what I can from your posts.

Now, let me just comment for a brief moment on your whole bit about judgin' people for being poor parents if they use a cup of coffee to get through the late shift at work. I'm willing to respect the position of the LDS with regard to "drugs" including caffeine, but I think yeh step quite a ways over the line when yeh jump to equating a cup o' joe with poor parenting. It does seem part and parcel with your approach more generally, but here again I reckon there's a deeper meaning to "Reverent" or "Kind" that yeh might be missing.

Really? What part of "Of course I'm kidding, but you can see the knee-jerk reaction and what it can entail..." did you not understand? I'm curious.

I think you have been blessed with livin' a relatively sheltered life, and should thank the Great Scoutmaster for your blessings. Lots of troops do not have a whole lot of personal gear (sleeping bags, hiking boots, etc.) available for boys to use; in fact many scrape by tryin' to have enough tents and cook gear.

No, my life has not been sheltered. Again, you're imposing your bias and misguided perception of me and my Troop. I do thank God for my blessings, daily. And I am aware that lots of troops don't have a whole lot of personal gear, but we do. We do fundraisers for them. We run them by our district committee, we get approval and we raise money so we can have tents, sleeping bags, mess kits, and various camping sundries available. This does come with the expectation that the Scout will obtain for himself the base needs over time. We don't let Scouts just slide. Part of thrifty is that he will be able to save for the things he needs, but we are in a position to help a Scout when he needs it, in this area and in others.

So, please get off your stump. Please start giving the benefit of the doubt. We're all Scouters and we're all trying to do what is best for the Scouts. However, this incessant gnawing at the uniforming method as something other than valid, acceptable, desired and necessary is just plain lunacy. Those who bemoan this, speak in generalities, and not in specifics. Those who bemoan this have no basis in fact. The fact is that those of us who do support this have a wealth of examples of the good that the uniforming method provides. Sadly, it doesn't fit into YOUR little box of what YOU want Scouting to be, Beavah, so YOU have to try (unsuccessfully) to run it into the ground every chance YOU get. As a "commish," I would hope you would see the bigger picture. As it is, I'm glad I'm not part of your district, because I don't think I would fit in very well and neither would my Scouts. Our Troop would be YOUR "knot nerds."

@ Beavah;

Yah, I reckon that's a might simplistic there, camilam42. The fellow who is workin' two jobs just so his family can get by may be usin' that cup of coffee just so he can stay alert durin' his shift.

I think we should be a might careful, or at least kind, about judging folks for their financial choices. That $180 can be used for a uniform, or it can be used to fully outfit a lad in the camping gear he needs to participate in the outdoor program - sleeping bag, pad, rain gear, hiking boots. Or it might be needed to repair the refrigerator that just broke down.

So, you're saying that a parent of a Scout is using a drug to do his job effectively? How is that being a good parent! OMG!!! I cannot believe that you'd stoop so low as to condone that action! How is that morally straight? Of course I'm kidding, but you can see the knee-jerk reaction and what it can entail. And it is that kind of mentality which you have garnered toward me and several others. I don't appreciate it.

How have I NOT BEEN KIND!?!?!?!? You really are judgmental. I offer a reasonable solution which anyone can attain and automatically, I'm not kind. How is that being courteous or friendly? Because thus far, you haven't been either toward me. A little fraternal advice from one Scouter to another...perhaps you need to reevaluate your attitude toward me and toward this thread.

You're right, the $180 can be used for those things, but honestly, most troops have camping gear available until the Scout can obtain his own.

As for the refrigerator issue. Well, Beavah, I've had the same fridge for 20 years. It's out in the garage now as a secondary fridge for drinks and ice, but it runs as well as the day it was purchased. Your examples are pretty extreme.

@ Beavah;

First, boys don't naturally go hog-wild about adopting and ratifying charters and bylaws over and over again without a lot of adult driving. Second, there isn't a group of red-blooded boys anywhere that wouldn't read da first two sentences and point out that (1) the BSA uniform doesn't make yeh look like a "backwoodsman" at all and (2) that the BSA uniform doesn't cover up differences in country the way old B-P's uniform did, it identifies yeh as American.

Boys have a keen sense for that sort of thing, eh?

Go back and read my post, Beavah. The vast majority of the Scouts who come through our program NEVER have to deal with this. This is a PLC thing once every three years.

We, as leaders, instill in the PLC a sense of duty when doing these things, because it leads to teaching them more important things like engaging their city councils, voting, and civic duty. Isn't that part of what Scouting is about? It sure is. And the Scouts who are on the PLC are enthusiastic about it.

You just can't get it out of your head, no matter how many times I say it that my troop is not Adult Run. It isn't. It is Adult Led. That is part of the Adult Assocication method.

So to get to that full spit-and-polished thing, yeh have to do the stuff that camilam42 suggests. Adults "calling out" boys on their uniform. Adults quotin' longwinded boldfaced uniform apologetics.

Of course that is long winded...whatever fella. It was a very concise cut and paste of the best practices of the BSA. I'm sorry you don't like it.

It just depends on your goals, eh? If your goals as a unit are to look sharp, well, then I reckon that's the fastest, straight-line path to the goal.

If your goals have more to do with developin' character and skill in the lads, then that depends on the boys being able to make choices.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the Scouts made this choice? I can tell you that we did. I was part of the first PLC in 1985 who ratified it. It was encouraged by our Scoutmaster at the time, but we came up with the wording and we came up with the amendment. And we have been the one's to encourage our Scouts to look at it critically, every three years.

Bottom line, Beavah....YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO WHAT I'VE SAID. You have simply regurgitated your own bias over and over and over. I have said several times now, to both you and others that we are an adult led troop, not adult run. Please listen going forward.

And for the record, my Scouts take pride in Scouting by being properly uniformed. When they go to camp, they are constantly commended and complimented on their appearance, whether it be in full dress or in camp t's with pants or shorts. Everyone knows who our troop is and everyone knows who our patrols are.

As for the rest, you are speaking out of turn. My Scouts don't just "book learn." I would put my Scouts up against any troop in the USA when it comes to camping and the Outdoor method.

And finally. You know who is most excited at camp and in parades, etc....it isn't me. It's my SPL. He's the one who is accountable to his peers. And they love it, all of it.

So, get off your Adult-run soapbox. You're making a mistake by keeping on that fallacious line of reasoning.

What exactly is the source of all these accusations that units that set a high standard for uniforming are always on the brink of failure and destruction?

There is none. I've asked that question here and I've not yet received an answer. I've asked for some credible evidence which would change my opinion, because I do have the ability to adapt, if my opinion can be proven wrong. That hasn't happened yet either.

In my estimation, the reason that some don't like uniforms is twofold:

1. They see it as a money making scam by the BSA. The look at the uniform changes as a way for the BSA to constantly drag money out of Scouts and Scouters. This certainly isn't the case, even though many will argue it. How do I know this? Because any Scout uniform whether it be from 1910, to 2012 is a valid uniform, provided it is badged properly. Nobody is holding a flame to the feet of another to force them into the centennial uniform.

2. They don't like the fact that the uniform has been outsourced to China. Well, I don't like it either, but economics is economics. There is no way, in today's global society that anyone can not have something which is not produced in another country. It just isn't possible to have absolutely everything from the USA.

Oh, they'll complain that it's too expensive and that the reasoning is that the Scouts/Scouters just can't afford it. I don't buy that either. I've already shown that the cost is minimal, especially if one takes care of the uniform or invests in two. I can do the math again, but I daresay that someone will come back and say that spending $180 for two uniforms is too much. Well, cut out a cup of coffee. One cup and that $180 would go away. At my local convenience store a cup of coffee costs $0.79. Multiply that $0.79 by 365 and what is the answer? $288.35. One cup of coffee, of course one would have to upfront those 365 cups of coffee.

And the final thing. One would know exactly where his monies were going. As an example, I look at my uniforms as a donation to the BSA. That being the case, I'm absolutely fine with spending the cash upfront. I know what and where my monies will be applied, for the most part and I don't have to worry about them being shuffled here and there to things which I don't approve.

@ SeattlePioneer;

If I wanted to devote all my time to uniforming issues I could do so, but my pack would collapse.

I fail to see how that could possibly be the case. If, as you say, your Scouts can apply their popcorn monies to uniforms, then there really is no reason why a uniforming standard cannot be put into place. Unless of course, you don't set sales goals for your Pack, which then would lead to some Scouts not making enough dollars to be able to get a uniform. But I seriously doubt that this is the case, as you comport yourself to be a good leader and I believe that, 100%.

Yes, devoting excessive time and resources to uniforming will undermine and perhaps destroy a good many Scout units I suggest.

In all my years of scouting, which goes back to 1981, I have never seen a Pack or a Troop undermined because of uniforming and employing that method. Perhaps it is because every Pack and Troop I've been involved with has held the uniforming method to be as important as any other method.

Like so many things, a list of things is not a substitute for GOOD JUDGMENT as a leader!

You're 100% right. 100%!!!! But part of good judgment with regard to Scouting is employing the methods which are employable. There can be nothing detrimental to Scouting if the method is properly applied. This absolutely includes uniforming. If the Pack or Troop employs the method, the only bad judgment can come from not employing said method to the standard as put forth from the BSA.

Does anyone care to suggest that this is wrong, bad, inadequate, sloppy or whatever?

I won't pass judgment, but I will offer this for consideration:

Wearing uniforms has been a method of the Scouting movement from the beginning. Decades of experience show uniforming to have many benefits, including these:

Equality. The uniform represents a democratic ideal of equality. Boys from various cultures and different economic levels wear the same uniform and cooperate as equals.

Identification. The uniform identifies a boy as a member of the Cub Scouts. Badges on the uniform tell other members that he belongs to their den, pack, and council. The uniform itself identifies a good citizen to the entire community.

Achievement. The uniform displays badges and other awards so the accomplishments of each Cub Scout can be immediately recognized.

Commitment. Wearing a uniform is a constant reminder to each Cub Scout of his commitment to the ideals and purposes of Cub Scouting: duty to God, loyalty to country, and helpfulness to others.

For these reasons, among others, all parents should emphasize to their Scouts the importance of wearing the correct and complete uniform on all suitable occasions.

Continuing on:

In general, every Cub Scout should wear his uniform to all Cub Scouting activities, including den and pack meetings, unit outings, and any activities done with members of the den or pack. When playing sports, going to camp, or participating in other physical activities, a pack may opt to have the Cub Scouts wear an alternate uniform, such as an activity shirt. Pack leaders should provide advance notice of any occasion when the boys should wear anything other than the complete uniform.

Here are some tips for wearing the uniform:

DO keep the uniform clean and in good repair. The official uniform is a sturdy, machine-washable garment that will last for years with proper care.

DO be sure to wear the complete uniform. A Cub Scout wearing a uniform with parts missing is not in uniform.

DO NOT wear non-BSA badges, awards, or insignia on the Cub Scout uniform or make any alterations to the uniform or insignia.

DO NOT mix uniform parts with non-uniform clothing, such as wearing a uniform cap with other clothing or wearing the uniform shirt with blue jeans. The uniform should be treated as a unitworn in its entirety, or not at all.

Any time you are uncertain about uniform regulations, ask the den leader for guidance.

(emphasis mine)

So, while I won't pass judgment, there does, IN FACT, seem to be a best practices in place according to the BSA, with regard to the wearing of the Cub Scout uniform. I'll let you do the deducing on your own.

Source: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/Awards/Parents.aspx

@ BadenP;

The passage you quoted was taken out of context and shows me that you truly believe what I said in my post. I think your PLC can require full uniform, but tell me are you going to turn away any boy who can not fulfill that requirement? If so that is elitism.

That passage was not taken out of context, it was/is the basis for the troop I am associated with adopting and expecting the uniform. Of course we won't turn away a boy who cannot fulfill the requirement. IF you go back and read my posts from earlier, you'll see that we have a loan closet from which a needy Scout can obtain any of the four pieces of the uniform save the socks. So, this whole argument you're putting forth is moot, and you'd understand that if you would just read what I have written.

How can holding true to a method of Scouting be elitist? I disagree with your whole premise that proper uniforming is elitist. It is a fallacious premise and one that cannot stand scrutiny.

All of that being said, I can only state one more time that our troop employs the uniform method. It is part of the bylaws, as amended by the PLC. They may at the appropriate time choose to either revoke or ratify the amendment, however in the last 27 years since the amendment was passed there have been exactly 8 no votes to the uniform method. Since the uniform method is part of this troop's aim of Scouting the Scouters support the PLC in making sure that the Scouts are held accountable for their uniforms. This is done on many levels, but most often, the Scouts themselves make it clearly known when someone is out of uniform. However, when the Scouters see a pattern it will be brought to the individuals attention. This is done in a friendly, courteous, kind and helpful way; contrary to what some here might think or assume.

The bottom line, I am not the uniform police/nazi for any troop beyond my own. I do monitor it, because we have been asked to, by the PLC and the Committee. If it is an isolated event, we often let it slide. If it is a habit or it becomes a problem of not following the method, the SPL will first comment, then the Scouters will intervene. This applies equally to the Scouters.

Our Scouts have no problem with this, because they by into the method. You might not like the method, but then again, I don't like car camping, but you don't see me running anyone down the rail because they car camp. I think that it's cheating. But hey...who am I? I'm just a Scouter who cares enough to follow the wishes of the PLC and the Committee. Don't get me started about junk food on any sort of campout...then you'll really get my ire up. That includes soda.

@BadenP;

Quoting BP is nice, yet remember the first couple of scouting most of the boys had partial or no uniforms, are you saying those boys were not true scouts? I hope not. Baden Powell sure didn't think that way, look at some early photographs of him with scouts, many of them in partial or no uniforms. Yes full uniforms are the the ideal to strive for yet the reality is that for various reasons that goal is not always obtainable. Quoting BP to affirm your my way or the highway perspective smacks of elitism to me.

Did you even read my post? I'm curious. I quoted the bylaws as was ratified by the Scouts themselves. Those of us who are Scouters simply help the Scouts.

Where did you ever get the idea that I thought a Scout wasn't a Scout unless he was fully uniformed? Where? No place have I stated that. I've actually spoken to the contrary multiple times. You wanna quote me as saying the uniform is required, save the two instances where it actually is required? I've not said that either.

You want to talk about elitism, well....it's pretty elitist to begrudge a PLC for holding to the uniforming method.

I'll just chalk up your post to the fact that you didn't read my post more carefully. What a misrepresentation of a view. Wow!

Furthermore, the debate is perpetuated by those with a laissez-faire mentality with regard to the uniform method.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

I just went back to our bylaws and I found the following as a basis for the importance in our troop. This is documented as being from 1985 and has been ratified 8 times with another ratification of the bylaws coming up this May.

For the boy a uniform is a big, attraction, and when it is a dress such as backwoodsmen wear it takes him in imagination to be directly linked up with those frontiersmen who are heroes to him.

The uniform also makes for Brotherhood, since when universally adopted it covers up all differences of class and country.

The Scout uniform, moreover, is simple and hygienic (a step now much in fashion) approximating that of our ancestors. Of this we are reminded when we sing round the camp-fire, to the tune of the "Men of Harlech."

What's the good of wearing braces,

Vests and pants and boots with laces,

Spats, or hats you buy in places

Down in Brompton Road?

What's the use of shirts of cotton,

Studs that always get forgotten?

These affairs are simply rotten,

Better far is woad.

--Robert Baden-Powell, Lessons from the Varsity of Life

The Scouts in 1985 used that as their basis for the uniforming method. Robert Baden-Powell still wields some influence, huh? I mentioned above that another ratification of bylaws is coming up in May. The Scouters don't have a vote on amendments ratified by the PLC. Only the PLC can vote them up or down. It takes a simple majority. I can tell you that by looking back, there have been 8 no votes since 1985. This year, I am guessing that it will be unanimous to the affirmative to ratify, but I could be wrong. Regardless, it will pass.

As I've said several times, this isn't about the adults running anything, this is about the Scouts running and the adults leading. That is what a Scouter is supposed to do.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

@ Beavah;

I might humbly suggest that full use of the Youth Leadership method would have the youth leaders who set the standard being responsible for helping their fellow scouts to live up to it, rather than having adults do it.

Trust me, they do; but they also look to the adult leaders to back them up. So we do.

I might gently encourage yeh to also consider whether "calling Scouts out" is consistent with the Ideals method where we pledge ourselves to be helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind.

You must assume that I am standing there with a yard stick at the ready to beat those Scouts senseless. I don't. There is merit in calling Scouts out consistently in a helpful, courteous, kind and friendly way. The merit is that they see that fraternal and leader led correction can be consistent with Scouting principles. Don't assume that because we call our Scouts out on their uniforms that we are unfriendly, rude, mean and hurtful to the Scouts. That really is selling short, but by how you say that, that is exactly what is to be intimated from your positioning. And it couldn't be further from the truth. But, I suspect that no matter how many times I say it, you just won't believe it, because it doesn't fit into your model of Scouting.

As a commish, I might try to model a bit how Adult Relationships method can be used to help lads engage with ideas and thinkin' about things so that they make good choices about uniforming themselves, rather than acting as an adult authority to enforce uniforming standards.

You really have not read anything that I've said with any objectivity. You've simply read it in the scope that I am being injurious to the morale of the Scouts. I'm sorry that your skimming of my responses has led you to that conclusion. It isn't the case.

A little advice for the "commish..." Be open to the uniforming method a little more. There is merit in it and the standard it sets can be a positive influence on the Scouts.

We build character in lads by helpin' 'em engage with issues and make good choices on their own, not by enforcing compliance or an external "look."

That is true on one level. But by asking them to wear the Scout uniform, it can help them to make the right choice when faced with a decision the PLC has amended to the bylaws of the charter. In that instance the bad choice is to be out of uniform. THAT is the point. Again, there is merit in the uniforming method.

I think that's the gentle or not-so-gentle advice some here are offering. By and large, the folks who run the spit-and-polished full-uniform troops are the folks who do the poorest job with some of the other Methods of Scouting. It's similar to those who overemphasize Advancement, eh? They typically lose sight of patrol method and youth leadership and such, and in the end they miss the whole point of Advancement to boot. The same thing happens to those who overemphasize Uniforming.

Says you. But I don't agree and neither does my troop. Who, by the way, wrote this into the by laws long before I was a Scouter. The fact that they keep ratifying it when it comes up for a vote says something, doesn't it? I would think so. But just because you don't like it doesn't mean that there isn't merit in doing it. It just means that you don't like it. And that is your opinion. Thank you for it. I disagree and thus far there has been nothing presented to change my opinion.

Uniforming is not about the uniform [...] They're both about the kid.

But when the Scouts want the uniform, then it is partially about the uniform. They find value in it and who are you to deny them that? It is up to me, as a Scouter in my troop, to help them instill that value. And that is about the Scout (or kid, if you prefer).

Beavah, THAT is being helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind, despite your misgivings about the method on any level.

I guess I'm a uniform advocate - but I'm advocating using the uniform appropriately as a tool to deliver the Scouting program. I don't want anyone to "copy" my "emphasis" - but I would expect my unit to follow through on whatever standard they set for themselves with regard to uniforming - just like I would expect them to follow through on their plans for troop meetings or camp outs.

And isn't that the point of the uniform method? Since it is a method, we employ it in my troop. Since we employ it in my troop, we support it to the fullest extent possible. I have made that abundantly clear.

There are those though, who think that because we hold the Scouts to a standard of uniform dress that we are ogres. That couldn't be further from the case. I think that I've tried to make that clear too. We call them on it, but it is because it is a method which we employ.

To the points of others here, if a Scout is not fulfilling his duty as SPL, do adults just let him flounder and get through it? I hope not. The same holds true for uniforming standards. If the Scouts are struggling with the uniform, do we just let them flounder and get through it? I hope not.

The Patrol method is rarely questioned. But the uniform method is demonized as creating a para military atmosphere. No more so than any other method. There are patrols in the military. There are platoons, and companies, and divisions and armies. Yet that is rarely demonized, but it's perfectly ok to call the uniform method out.

The problem, in my eyes isn't with the uniform nazi's as they are called here, sometimes. The problem is that there are those who are so mired in anti-establishment that any the establishment is too strict. So, it's better to establish a non-established way of being as opposed to accepting and embracing the methods which are available.

Am I going to run up to a troop who doesn't employ the uniform method and call them out? No, of course not. But I am going to call my Scouts out when they don't employ that method; precisely because they passed that method as being a standard. Where is the consistency in that, if I didn't?

And finally, if the Scouts are held accountable, then the Scouters are too. They are to be the adult influence, they are to buy into the methods of the troop as much as the troop. If they don't, why are they in that troop? That creates discontinuity and as a leader, I have to call that out.

@ Beavah

In other words, Adult Run, with the adults actin' as authority rather than havin' mentoring relationships with the youth.

So in order to enforce "proper" uniforming, yeh are willing to give shorter shrift to two other Methods of Scouting. Not just willin', eh? Proud.

That's the way it usually plays out in most troops.

Well, thanks for short sighting my entire point, Beavah. You've also missed the point. This isn't about being adult run. This is about being Adult led.

The uniform method is one of several methods my troop uses. But, and I'll say it again, the uniform method holds the same weight. This isn't just an adult decision, this is a collaboration between the Scouts and the Scouters. We decided this years ago and added it to our bylaws when the Patrol Leaders' Council decided that this was how they would like to see their troop run. The Scouters hold the Scouts accountable for it and it comes up every three years or so, but it is always re-affirmed, that the uniform method should be in place. This is in conjunction with the other methods we use which are, the patrol method, leadership development, outdoor, ideals, and yes, Beavah, we do use Adult Association.

While the Scouts do the majority of the work, there are times in which they do defer to the Scouters. It is necessary and it is expected. I don't think that it is out of line to incorporate all of the methods equally, which is what we try to do, but as with all pre-teens and young teenagers, they do need to be held to task, especially when they are utilizing as much freedom as they are with the patrol method.

Part of the adult association is that the Scout will defer to the accountability measures put in place by the SPL's, the Committee and themselves. This includes proper uniforming.

If you are somehow intimating that this is a covetous or a malformed sense of pride...Sir, I disagree and so do my Scouts and Scouters. The sense of pride is not in how they wear the uniform, but why they wear the uniform. And that is not a bad thing.(This message has been edited by camilam42)(This message has been edited by camilam42)

@ Oak Tree;

The BSA pretends that it is a fully uniformed organization, just the way the drivers and police officers on the interstate pretend that the speed limit is 65mph.

Thanks for your perspective. I for one, find it to be honest. I do have a question or two regarding your statement though? Just because not everyone follows the policy, does that mean that the policy has no merit or it doesn't exist? So, by it's own definition, required or not, the BSA is, in fact, a uniformed organization. Whether or not the uniform is absolutely required is not really germane to the conversation and it misses the point. My point isn't that it is absolutely required. If you go back and read what I've written, you'll see that I acknowledge that it isn't required, per se, but rather that I expect my Scouts to comply, because it is a uniformed organization. If they don't, they are called on it, but there are no further ramifications (It's not like I'm confiscating badges or putting them in time out). The same holds true for the Scouters. Because the expectation exists and both groups understand, through emphasis and education, that this is an expectation, there is no problem with it. They take pride in the uniform (not undue or covetous pride, mind you, but rather righteous pride in knowing that they are doing their part in being a good and recognizable steward for Scouting).

I will say this though, just because a person or an authority figure doesn't follow the rules, as in your example of speeding, doesn't mean that he is right or justified in his action. If he is pulled over, he will either be warned or cited. Ignoring the law, in your example, does not grant immunity from it. You're really comparing apples and oranges, though. My second question, how does a law compare to an expectation, in this instance?

Like I said, thanks for your perspective, I do appreciate it.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

@ qwazse,

That's all good and well, but I do believe that proper uniforming does teach the Scouts. The method has existed since the beginning and it is one which, in my honest opinion, is just as important as teaching first-aid or whittling or any other discipline.

The Scout is taught accountability for his actions. The Scout is taught that there are standards by which he is to comport himself. These are things that have been lost in society today.

I'm all for spending time with the Scouts. I am all for making sure that the Scout can be effective in CPR or camping or some other area, but I think that proper uniforming is also a way to spend time with the Scout. As I've said several times (and I think you agree), "If it's not good for the Scout, then I won't do it."

As for taking time away from the Scouts by having a conversation with the ASM, I have found that, practically speaking the conversation (over a cup of coffee or a campfire) rarely takes time away from the Scouts. That is a time management issue, not a stripping of time with the Scout.

I understand your point, I just think that holding the Scout accountable and to a standard through the uniform method is as important as any other discipline. Fortunately for me (and my opinion), the BSA agrees.

In fact, perfect uniforming is almost always a sign that they're doin' a poor job with other methods that I think are more important in terms of their impact on kids - things like youth leadership and adult relationships and outdoors.

Beavah,

Can you please point me to those facts that you base your opinion on? Where does perfect (I'd rather say proper) uniforming provide a sign of poor performance in other areas?

We will have to disagree about the uniforming method. I find great value in it and I will continue to promote it until such time as one can show me facts to the contrary which may change my view.

I'm not above changing my view, but I will need substantial facts on which to change the opinion I have intimated above.

Thanks Beavah, I appreciate it.(This message has been edited by camilam42)

@ sasha;

Yes, that is true. I won't argue that point with you. However, if the BSA is a uniformed organization and finds value in that method, why wouldn't one who belongs to that organization want to follow that method?

While some view it as a suggestion, it really is more than that. It is an ideal which has helped to build the BSA into what it is today. There is a purpose behind the uniform. Insofar as that is the case, the BSA has determined that the uniform includes a shirt and pants, as well as other pieces, which complete the uniform.

I don't begrudge you anything, your opinion is your own. However, part of holding an opinion is knowing that it can be modified and that it can come in line with a more objective way of thinking. That, though, isn't my job. I can simply support the methods which are proven to work in the BSA. That is what I am doing. The uniform method is not something I find to be whimsical or passe. It isn't something I find to be a mere suggestion, but rather I find it to be an ideal by which the BSA has leveraged it's entire existence upon. While, strictly speaking not absolutely necessary, I don't think that the BSA would be what it is today if only a shirt were the basis on which Scouting was built uniform wise. That is my opinion.

I base my opinion on the current policy, on the writings and views of Bill Hillcourt, Robert Baden-Powell, and countless thousands of Scouts and Scouters from 1907 until today. It is this opinion that guides me in holding to the various methods which work. I am not in the business of re-inventing the wheel. I am in the business of doing what is good for the Scouts.

I believe that the BSA's policy on uniforming (as well as other methods) is worth the effort, time, and even money. At least I know where my money is going if I buy a uniform. I don't look at it so much as a burden, but as a way of giving to the BSA to continue their mission. Is it more expensive? Sure, but have you looked at a gallon of milk lately? Or a cut of beef? Or a gallon of gas? I'm willing to pay the extra amount to know where my dollars are going. And as I've shown earlier in the thread, it is quite a minimal expense over time.

So, it comes to this. You are entitled to your opinion. I respect it. However, the methods to which I subscribe are proven to work. I will use them. My Scouts will use them. My Scouters will use them. It is their choice to belong to the organization and through education of the method (and other methods), they buy in and have no problem following them.

@SeattlePioneer;

I will reiterate a point I made a little earlier:

"While it isn't expressly required, except for National Jamboree and for attaining the National Honor Patrol Award, it is a method which seriously supports the boy and creates an atmosphere and a camaraderie which is good for the Scout. Which brings me back to my undying philosophy, "If it's not good for the Scout we won't do it."

The uniform is good for the Scout. And if the Scouter is to be the first example for the Scout, He/She should be properly attired."

This isn't a matter of being a "uniform nazi" or being anything other than a supporter of the uniform method. It has been a tenant of Scouting from the beginning and it is a principle that Baden-Powell found to be important.

If one is going to support the uniform method, then he should support it. Frankly, I don't understand why it wouldn't be supported, as it is and has been part of Scouting since it's foundation.

The use of the uniform creates a sense of camaraderie, a sense of equality and a sense of pride by way of public expression of the badging they have earned and insignia to which they belong.

As I have said and I will continue to say unceasingly, "If it is good for Scout, then we will do it, if not we won't."

The uniform method is good for the Scout, therefore we will continue to do it, but we will not do it partially. We will give 100% commitment to it, because that shows the Scout the importance of following through and committing to something. This applies to the Scouter as well who is his first example.

@ SeattlePioneer;

I get what you're saying, but I have to agree with Eagledad.

I spoke about obedience. When one goes to an Eagle COH, obedience is spoken about referencing among other things, the BSA. The uniform is part of this. While it may be tiresome to talk about it, it wouldn't be IF everyone followed the uniform method.

As I've illustrated above, it really isn't tiresome for us, because we strongly encourage our Scouts and Scouters to buy into the uniform method.

"The uniform makes the Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished." Aims and Methods of the Scouting Program

While it isn't expressly required, except for National Jamboree and for attaining the National Honor Patrol Award, it is a method which seriously supports the boy and creates an atmosphere and a camaraderie which is good for the Scout. Which brings me back to my undying philosophy, "If it's not good for the Scout we won't do it."

The uniform is good for the Scout. And if the Scouter is to be the first example for the Scout, He/She should be properly attired.

This is my view. I refuse to force it on another troop or pack, but the fact remains that it is good for the boy, so the expectation exists and is followed up on with the troop and pack I'm involved in.

@ qwazse;

Obviously, there are times when one will come across a Scouter who is not in it for the Scout, so it becomes about him. And then they often times get into the uniforming, to the Nth degree. That isn't who I'm speaking about.

I'm speaking about the example given in the beginning. In my experience, I've found that those Scouters who follow the uniform method and are serious about it are better leaders. We do follow that method and we make sure we are able to impart the importance to each and every Scout AND Scouter. FYI, do the same thing with the patrol method.

We believe that these methods make for better Scouts. And because of that, we know that it is good for the Scouts. So, we hold this to be a very important part of our troop and pack. The parents are on board, because we have educated them on the issue and we are currently working to make compliance 100%.

There are couple of things we do to faciliate this:

1. We have a loan closet for uniforms. There are two options for the loan closet. The parents can loan out the uniforms of boys who have bridged out to boy scouts or have become inactive. In this scenario, we clear the badges off the shirts and they hang in a closet by size. The badges we clear go into a sectional tote and become available for use for those who are not able to pay. The same thing happens with pants and belts. The same thing happens with neckers and slides. The only thing we don't loan are socks. The second option is that parents can buy the shirts and pants from the loan closet, if they so choose. This becomes a fundraiser, with a piece of the monies going back to the orignial owner, so they are compensated (although we've only had one parent actually take the money offered through this). The monies raised from this (which is also minimal, btw) go directly to the camping fund, which either helps a Scout go to camp or it facilitates an annual pack camp out with no expense to the Scouts (As a matter of transparency, there is roughly $30 in that fund. Most all just borrow the shirts).

We do the same thing for boy scouts, although it is on a much smaller scale. Most boy scouts want to have new stuff, but the closet does exist for them too. Shirts are cleared and badges are kept (if the boy doesn't want to keep them). Pants are hung, although most pants are of the older style and have been retired (we keep them anyway and are gradually moving them to goodwill). We have belts and some of our troops neckers and there are a number of slides.

99% of our boy scouts don't utilize the closet though. Virtually all own their own uniforms, but there are a couple who have used the closet over time.

2. When a new Scouter comes on board, we do have a "coffee break" with him/her and explain the importance of the uniform method and the patrol method. We give them their expectation and to date, not one Scouter has not been willing to purchase a uniform.

While I certainly understand scenario you bring up regarding the poorly uniformed Scouter v. the immaculately uniformed Scouter, I have rarely seen it. Every time I have been involved and the uniform method has been explained, the Scouter comes on board. We do have a contingency for when that doesn't happen, but we've not had to use it, yet....thank goodness.

@ acco40;

When speaking of a "modified uniform" I am speaking of the so-called activities uniform or the "class B."

While not mentioned in the insignia guide on the scouting website, a Council does have the leeway to approve them for use. Example: The Cubs in our local pack have Council approval to use an activities uniform when it is apparent that the uniform will become unduly abused or the potential for damage arises.

Again, if it's not good for the Scout, we won't do it. There are times when wearing the official uniform is not advantageous, but the need for uniformity always exists within the Scouting structure.