lakes_stu

So he turned to Olave and asked her to come up with something.  That something, of course, was the Girl Guides and it eventually folded into the British Scouting program, just as a large percentage of other worldwide Scouting groups have joined the genders in some manner.

 

 

Apologies if I have misunderstood this, but It might be worth pointing out that here in the UK, Girlguiding has not folded into Scouting in terms of a merger or anything similar. We (Scouting) are fully co-ed, but Girlguiding remains completely separate and is going as strong as ever. If the numbers are to be believed, I think they have slightly more members than we do.

 

I think Guiding and Scouting can often attract girls who are looking for different things. So the two do not really impact on each other as such. There are of course exceptions, but girls who want to scout join Scouting, and girls who want to guide join Girlguiding. A rather simplistic description, but there you go! Its worth saying that we do not change our program when girls are involved. We continue to provide what we have always done. We just make sure it is fully accessible to all (and in the case of girls there are very few adaptations needed and they are straightforward). Those who like it will come regardless of gender.

 

We do also see girls who want to do both, and the costs of both organisations are generally so reasonable (most of the time) that they are active members of both and this causes no problems (would this be an option for BSA/GSUSA?).

Maybe my unit is a fluke, but he have more parents (dads) who were scouts than our registered leaders. In their view, there is less hassle and cost in just informally helping than formally registering as a leader.

 

I like your smart use of "family camping" to demonstrate scouting and recruit adults say once a year or two years.

 

How often are your adult leaders required to take youth protection training?

 

Im sure Family Camps can be a very effective way to recruit more Leaders. Maybe its something we should try. One thing that is common here is operating a 'parent rota' where parents take it in turns to help with a meeting a couple of times a year. Some groups are very strict about this while others are much more informal, with everything in between.

 

DBS checks are renewed every 5 years, although I am sure any issues flagged up in the interim would result in immediate action. We also need to take safeguarding and safety training every 5 years, although it should be and generally is an ongoing thing. First aid training is renewed every 3 years.

Some questions:

 

What percentage of your scout leaders were scouts? Reading posts here, my impression you have a higher percentage than we.

 

Do you have "Family Camping" in your program?

 

Modest Proposal: Maybe we should relocate BSA HQ to Britain for this transition.

 

In our group, we have 1 Beaver scout Leader, 1 Assistant Beaver Scout Leader (me!), 1 Cub Scout Leader, 1 Assistant Cub Scout Leader, 2 Cub Scout Section Assistants, 1 Scout Leader, 1 Scout Section Assistant and 1 Group Section Assistant.

 

Out of these, about half have been in Scouting as youth members. One was in Girlguiding and was a leader there but left because she felt it was a bit wishy-washy (her exact words wont be repeated here, but thats the general reason). All but 2 are (or have been) parents of kids in the group. Ages range from 23 to 48 I think.

 

"Family Camps" are not too common here. They used to be quite popular in Beavers when they were not allowed to camp in tents without their parents. That changed several years ago, and they are not very common now as far as I know. It is more common for an interested parent to help with a camp as an additional adult. In any case, adults attending overnight have needed to have the appropriate safeguarding checks done first.

 

Family camps could, I believe, be a bit problematic as many adults were there as 'parents' rather than 'leaders'. This led to issues with parents undermining leaders, picking and choosing which elements of the camp they wished to get get involved in and several other notable problems. In any case, it was felt that the young people got less from the camp if their parents were there (as opposed to leaders who just happened to be parents).

 

Having said that, we welcome parents along to our camps (provided we can get them DBS checked in time - it takes a while) and other events. Its just that they are expected to be part of the leadership team rather than 'parents'.

 

I dont have first hand experience of this though. Perhaps @@Cambridgeskip or someone could provide more info.

I would like to thank y'all foreigners for discussing the mechanics of making these mixed gender potentialities work. It will benefit those who have to deal with the program changes--probably better than what BSA will come up with.

Not a problem. Again, I apologise if I have come over a little opinionated. Its just that I am passionate about what we do (aren't we all) and wish the best for the BSA and its members. Things can seem a little black and white sometimes!

 

As @@Cambridgeskip says, keep the questions flowing. I am really enjoying this, as I feel I am learning a lot too (from my colleagues here in the UK as well as you guys overseas).

But what if you cannot get enough interest,both girls and volunteers, to create separate all girl units? That's the dilemma

 

If you have space (and BSA ever allows it), allow girls to join your existing pack/troop. Don't change your programme though, keep doing what you have always done well. That's the answer.

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt, it is not my intention to offend or upset. I just feel that Leaders can continue to focus on delivering a great programme without having to worry too much about gender.

We only have a couple of kids who are old enough to join Beavers who are having to wait thankfully. Our Cub pack and Scout troop actually have spaces (although we have a few Beavers due to move up soon).

 

However, there is a group near to us where it's 2 Beaver Colonies are full and they have over 60 waiting!!!

 

Sorry, straying off topic now.

There is a joke that following the next ice age, scientists will initially find 2 things - fossils and Icelandic tents

In the UK Scout Patrols are usually made up of around 5 to 8 Scouts so they used to all fit in one tent.

Yep, the classic scout tent in the UK is made by Blacks of Greenock. They call it the Icelandic. Far less popular than they used to be in my experience (they are not cheap for one thing) but they last forever (IF they are properly looked after).

 

http://www.blacksofgreenock.co.uk/13-tents

I've heard the complaint that girls dominate the youth leadership in Scouts Canada troops (but I can't find my source right now). Do you see the same thing occurring in the UK?

Personally, I can't say that I have experienced this. At the moment, we try to rotate our Lodge Leaders so that everybody gets the experience at some point during their time with us. This is not the practice elsewhere though, but I can't really say for sure. I know that our Cubs had a girl Sixer fairly recently, but the other Sixers were all boys. I think the pack only had 3 or 4 girls at the time though.

Why do they have to wait to join? Are you restricted on the size of your group?

Yes, a Beaver Colony (as we call a Tiger Cub pack) is normally limited to 24. We can take more by arrangement with our line manager, but I'm not sure how many do.

 

Cubs and Scouts can take more (as they do not require as much individual support as they get a bit older - in theory), and I think Explorers are only limited by the practicalities of their meeting place.

 

As a result, it is very common for groups here to have long waiting lists.

@@Hawkwin, that's a tough one. I didnt join as a leader until after co-ed was universal. I really dont know any different. I do remember when I was a Cub and Scout though. It was a lot of fun then, but its just as much fun now. So from me at least there are no regrets.

 

I do get peeved with parents tear a strip off me about their son having to wait to join because (and I quote) 'the girls have taken all the places'. This tends to come from parents who are least likely to step up and volunteer.

One of my concerns is finding women that want to do the more challenging events. We've had moms that will go on one or two and then they're done with that while the dads love it.

Could you focus on providing the bulk of the team from the keener Dad's, and perhaps have some kind of rota for when you need a Mum?

 

My other concern is whether there are

enough girls to form viable units. In big towns I don't see a problem but small towns is different.

I can understand this. Our colony has 19 boys and only 5 girls. I don't know the exact details of what BSA is planning as yet, but is there any chance that girls could be allowed to join a Den with boys?

To answer this from the younger 10-14 perspective....

 

The rules are that boys and girls need separate changing and washing facilities but are allowed to sleep in the same tent or room. In practice it is quite rare for that to happen. We've only ever done it at the end of a night hike and they all crash on the floor of our HQ and once on an over night ferry when it was rooms of 4 and the ratios didn't work out to be entirely separate. The troop has a selection of 2,3 4 and 6 man tents which they distribute depending on the make up of a particular patrol so that they have boy and girl tents. There's been the occasional "sleep over" where someone has been playing cards or talking to their mates in the other tent and has fallen asleep in there. But no harm done and I've seen no reason to intervene.

 

We too have had the occasional couple but the kids manage it themselves. We've had no problems with PDAs or sneaking off. It all just works out.

To answer this from the even younger 6-8 perspective. The rules are exactly as @@Cambridgeskip says. However, it probably happens more often with Beavers, as we often run sleepovers in church halls and similar spaces. We have a couple of tents that can be pitched indoors, but not enough for the whole colony. When we have 'District' sleepovers there can be about 100 Beavers all in the one room (changing space in segregated toilets). The adults always sleep in a separate room and come to an arrangement regarding changing.

Take a look at rules 2.3 and 2.4

 

http://scouts.org.uk/media/819396/Chapter-2.pdf

In American Boy Scouts we have a set of youth protection policies mostly to prevent a repeat of institution wide sexual abuse of minors. I think Schiff is referring to the UK equivalent of that. 

 

My question is actually fairly similar. With Co-ed Scouting comes the management of teenage hormones. When I was in High School band, they would put us in hotel rooms based on gender. (All male and female rooms.) They would actually put duct tape on the outside of the doors, so they would know if you tried to leave the room to go mingle with the opposite genders at night without supervision. I feel like foreign Scouts would be just as similar as American ones. Are there rules in the TSA UK that address this?

 

I suggest taking a look at https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=419,304 and exploring some of the information there and on linked pages. @@Cambridgeskip, @@PaulArthurs, @@ianwilkins do you know if there any any factsheets or parts of POR that may be worth quoting here? I'm at work right now and having to be a bit discreet!!!

Thanks @@Cambridgeskip, you said it better than me

@@Hawkwin That is a very good question, and I suspect it is one that a great many in the BSA might be asking either right now or if there is prospect of going fully co-ed.

 

The answer is - nothing!!! Not in my experience anyway. In no way have we made the programme specifically girl focussed. We make sure that it is accessible to all (and I mean all) and those that like what we offer join us. There are other options for those who would prefer something different.

 

As for merit badges, obviously as a Beaver leader the badges that I know about are designed to be achieved by 6-8 year olds, but there is nothing specifically gender based in there. Of course, there is flexibility if the Beavers want to include something that could be classed as such in their activities. We tend to sit down and talk about what they would like to do (we call it a 'log chew') and build a programme based on that.

 

Regarding recruiting Mums, at Beaver age it tends to be Mums that come along in any case. This does not mean that they will suddenly jump into uniform, but we do find that many are quite willing to help out occasionally provided they do not feel overwhelmed.

 

But, as I mentioned above, we do not need Mums to help. We can have a team made up completely of Dads or indeed other males (some leaders are parents but by no means all), and all would be well provided we act as responsible adults. Take a look at https://members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/3099/young-people-first-code-of-practice-yellow-card?cat=419,299,304for how we do this.

@@RememberSchiff, I am not 100% certain how to answer on the basis of mixing boys and girls, but we require that our Beavers (who are max 8 years old, and some of whom have not yet turned 6) are brought into our meeting place by a parent and collected directly from us at the end.

 

For a regular Beaver meeting, there will be at least 2 adults present at all times. At least one of these will normally have completed basic training, although can still be working towards their Wood Badge. If we have an extra event or meet away from our usual place, the required ratio is 1 adult to every 6 Beavers, plus an extra adult in overall charge. These ratios change as you progress to Cubs, Scouts and Explorers - and I think the requirement for the extra adult is dropped for Scouts and older.

 

Notice I say adults. There is no requirement to have a mixed sex leadership team (and this includes on camp), although it is recommended as good practice. It is down to common sense, acting responsibly and carrying out good risk assessments.

 

When required, all Scouts and adults should have the ability to change, wash and toilet etc with privacy. This is absolutely required when girls and boys are attending a camp or sleepover, and is generally fairly straightforward to arrange (even if you have to get a little creative sometimes). As for the actual 'lying down and falling asleep', accommodation can be mixed if required, but this is obviously not the preferred option. It tends to be where there is only one girl attending a camp with other boys, and is sometimes seen as a safer option than them sleeping on their own. Everybody concerned must be happy with the arrangements in this case (including parents).

 

As for how the boys and girls act around each other, this has never been an issue. We expect all our Beavers to treat each other, and themselves (and us) with respect. The general approach at Beaver age is that if they remember their promise, they wont go far wrong. That goes for us adults too!

 

We do encourage parents to help us out on an ad-hoc basis. If a parent is never unsupervised with children, does not attend an overnight event and does not attend more than one week in four (I need to double check that one), they do not need a formal background check (in fact doing so would be illegal). Vigilance and more common sense are the watchwords here.

 

However, if any of the above conditions could potentially be satisfied or they wish to take on a more formalised leadership role, they must be properly vetted. This involves a 'Confidentail Enquiry' check at HQ, as well as checking for any relevant information that may be held about them. In England and Wales, we have a system knows as the Disclosure and Barring Service. This is a centralised department that allows a criminal record check to be carried out, search for the presence of a person on any 'barred' lists and check local police records. It is renewed every 5 years. There are similar but separate organisations in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

Hope this helps! Anyone care to expand on this???

UK Beaver Scout (our equivalent of your Tiger Cubs I think) Leader here. More than happy to help with any concerns or questions where I can.

Looks great, Skip.

 

You have got me wondering if I could run a heavily modified and well supervised equivalent to this with the Beavers around our local suburb center (for want of a better word).

 

It actually seems similar in concept to the quiz that accompanied the 'night hike' (more of a short evening walk, but adventurous for the Beavers) we did around Pudsey last year. If we can find enough DBS'd adults we can split into lodges and make it a bit more Beaver-led.

 

Thanks, will have a think...