scout-parent

My younger son also moved to the new troop along with his brother. The new troop is working out well for him as well. He was elected patrol leader, something he wasn't allowed to do in the old troop. He just came back from summer camp where he earned 4 eagle required merit badges. He's finished his Star requirements and just needs a SM conf. and a board of review. He'll be 14 in August, so if he wants to be an eagle, he'll be in good shape. All in all the move to the new troop has benefited both boys and the new troop as well. Thanks for asking.

Hello everyone, I just wanted to give you an update on what happened.

My son decided to leave the original troop and move to a very small (15 kids) and very young (ages 12-14 most kids) troop. It's worked out pretty well for everyone. The new troop was trying to figure out how to do the patrol method and my son showed them how. He became the "unofficial troop leader" showing the SPL, ASPL and PL's what should be done and how to do it. The scoutmaster has listened to his advice both good things that were being done and things that needed to be modified. All in all mutual respect between my son and the SM.

My son has finished his eagle project, done the write up and just needs one signature on his application. It worked out well having the young kids work on an eagle project and see what needed to be done and how to get it done.

I'm still not too happy about all that transpired, but I'm happy that my son was able to push through the bad parts and still go toward his goal of eagle and most of all that he didn't quit scouting. I think he learned a lot. With any luck he'll get his paperwork in by the end of the month and that will give him 10 months til he turns 18. So he's looking good barring any unforseen things.

The new SPL elections were held on Wednesday. The SM said that there were two qualified scouts and one didn't want the position, so in effect he picked the winner. My son raised his hand and said he wanted to run and was told he couldn't. It's nice to see that he still thought it was about a fair election. Being 16, I guess you don't understand the underlying politics and the way the world works. It's a sad thing that it was boy scouts that took away the childlike view of the world.

Does anyone know if he can change troops after his Eagle proposal has been signed and the ok has been given to begin work on the project? Do you need to finish with the same troop/SM that signed the proposal?

The PL's that were elected were my son for the venture patrol and the two scouts that climbed down the cliff. Because the SM didn't know these kids were missing and now they are in charge, my wife has safety issues with the troop. She doesn't want my younger son (first class) to be in the patrol with these kids as the leaders. She's worried that they can't show good judgment for themselves, how can they watch out for my son? The adults don't seem to be watching either. My younger son can't get a leadership position because the SM says he's too immature and it will be years before he gets one. Well, that's another topic for another day.

We really want to move both kids, but the older guy doesn't want to jeopardize his eagle.

Thanks for the help.

Here are some answers to questions posed by Aquila calva.

Until the deposed leadership was forced to join the venture patrol, no venture patrol existed within the troop. There are two ASM's neither of which has been assigned to the venture patrol, as of yet. One is a NYC fireman and I'm guessing from his size, athletic ability and profession, he's the one who's cut out for high adventure.

Three kids made eagle last year and the troop average was about one every year. So, there have been 21 eagles since 1993. The thing about this is that each and every project has been a PROJECT. No tidying up an area and slapping on a coat of paint. Mostly building projects. It was very hard to make eagle, which added to the allure of making eagle in this troop.

I'm not sure how many Webelos are in the pipeline. It's usually a low of 3 to a high of 10.

As you know, my son was proposing to speak at a council meeting he requested be held before the next scheduled meeting in January. The CC asked him to send an agenda about what he wanted to speak about. My son sent the agenda and a few days later got this message;

I will review items 2 through 5 with you on Wednesday. None of these items warrant an emergency meeting. I must state I am surprised to see that items 3 through 5 appear to place all blame on adult leaders and no improvements are suggested of the scouts. Regardless I will review these items with you and address how these items are handled or what stages they are in.

Mr. CC

Below it the agenda he sent. I don't see blame being assigned. Am I to close to the forest to see the trees? Does this agenda seem to be assigning blame? Perhaps some of you who are more detached from the situation can comment.

Agenda For Troop 5 Emergency Committee Meeting

1- Address what has happened within the troop thus far so that the parents understand why we are calling the meeting and offering suggestions to help fix the troop.

2- Discuss what a Venture Patrol is as it is a relatively new concept to the parents in our Troop, also a good opportunity to recruit new members for a Venture Patrol.

3- Develop a forum in which everyone can speak about the camp outs, whether it be in person with the adults or on the website, checked by adults periodically (we know that people can post messages there but there should be a place set aside to specifically address what happened on the camp outs so that adult leaders dont only act with only one side of a story.

4- Get a complaint system set up so that if parents have complaints it will not only be told to the adult leaders but the boy leaders will also be made aware of them.

5- Propose that the troop develop by-laws or a constitution so that there will be no more miscommunication as to how things are done when changing leadership, (yes the concept is addressed in scouting doctrine however troops adopt these concepts in different ways and it would help everyone understand how things are run in Troop 5. END of AGENDA

Thanks for all the comments, they've been very helpful and I appreciate the time you've all taken to address my issues.

The problem isn't that we thought he should be SPL for life. It's the way the SM removed the SPL and the 5 PL's. Saying "if you ran a business you'd be fired" and effectively firing them and forcing them into a venture patrol. They are KIDS! If he said "next month we're going to have elections and select a new leadership corps and give more people a crack at leadership positions", that would have been fine. It's all about how it was done. Scouting should be about building up not tearing down. These are good kids and deserved better. The venture patrol wasn't discussed until they became a venture patrol. They are all still hurting and their confidence is shot. There is talk about quitting scouts from a few of them. This is not the lesson scouting should be teaching.

To answer some questions, my son was the SPL for one year and 5 months after becoming a life scout. So, his leadership requirement for eagle is covered. Thanks for the idea to get this requirement signed off by SM now.

Today my son got approval from the district committee rep ,or something like that, on his eagle proposal. All he needs to do now is wait for the spring thaw. He's relining a pond and creating a drainage field/riverbed and adding some landscaping in a goose enclosure. He's doing the project for a small nature preserve in the area.

When the rep asked what position he was currently holding, my son replied that he used to be SPL but it's complicated now. The rep said "fine, I don't need to know".

This rep was very helpful. Told him what he needed to do from here on out.

We've spoken to the SM and the CC. More or less they say the kids that were removed were disrespectful and hence were removed. My son is a teenager, I have no doubt that he sometimes has attitude. The SM often confuses disrespect for disagreement. My son has a backbone and will stand up for what he believes is right. He's stood up for scouts that he thinks were unfairly treated by SM. Don't get me wrong, he's a kid, he can have attitude. As his father I know! Another example, he and his fellow scouts were on a ferry ride when another scout spilled water all over my son. He took his scout shirt off and wrapped it around his waist. The CC/ASM got all over him for being out of uniform yelling at him in front of the entire troop. He stood his ground and said his shirt was soaking wet and he wasn't going to sit around in a soaking wet shirt. Disagreement is not disrespect.

We've spoken to the CC and asked for a committee meeting. He said this wasn't a committee issue and said the next meeting would be the regularly scheduled meeting in Jan. My son is sending him an agenda he'd like to address at the meeting. The agenda items are (I think) 1) how to prevent this type of thing in the future. 2) Creating a troop constitution that spells out how removal of scouts should be done etc. 3) How patrols are formed 4) who gets to vote for what etc. 5) term limits (to give everyone a chance at leadership positions.

We've spoken to the district council and although they listened, they really show no interest in investigating anything.

My son's latest plan is to run for PL of his venture patrol and then run for SPL. The SM has created 3 large (10+ boys) patrols. We think he's trying to dilute my sons base of support for the SPL election. If he's elected SPL, he wants to make the ousted PL's instructors.

His eagle proposal was approved by the SM and CC and sent to the district. They say there is a new rule that he has to discuss the project with from someone from the district before they can sign off. I've never heard of this before, have you?

Although I'm not going to say my son is blameless in the situation, I do think it was handled poorly. I am extremely proud of how he is his working for change within his organization. Hopefully it will be a learning experience for him and the SM.

In answer to another question about is the troop without an SPL. The ASPL is the acting SPL. My son is going to run for SPL in the next election. But, because most of the leadership corps in now in the venture patrol, the PL's will be most of the kids whose parents caused the leadership corps removal in the first place.

At the meeting witht he SM on Monday, my son asked the SM if he really thinks the kids who climbed down the cliff would be good PL's when they can't show good judgment and take care of themselves let alone others. No response from the SM.

Thanks for the help.

A little more information has come to light about the last campout the troop went on. Below is an excerpt of my son's letter he's going to give to the committee at the next meeting;

They had asked an adult leader if they could go to the rock but had not asked to climb down it, as the obvious answer would have been no. The boy leaders found out what had happened rather rapidly, assembled all of the scouts at the campsite and took attendance by patrol. Then leaving some older scouts in charge back at the campsite reported the events to Mr. T, the acting Scoutmaster on the trip. They then walked to the edge of the cliff, calling the missing three boys names. They were not foolish enough to attempt to climb down after them as that could have caused an even bigger problem. Soon enough the boys responded and climbed back up. Because the adult leaders did not take the initiative to discipline the boys, Bobby as the Senior Patrol Leader said that being older scouts they should have not only known better than to do something so foolish but to also go back on their duties as good role models to the younger scouts. He then told them that he would try and get a suitable punishment for them worked out with the adult leaders and make sure that it was carried out because their actions were very irresponsible. Feeling afraid, these scouts whose parents were very active in the troop may have told their parents ( just speculation) about what bad leaders the scouts were in an attempt to get out of trouble. These parents may have led the charge in removing (names of removed leadership corp) from their previous positions of leadership. END of EXCERPT

The boys met with the SM on Monday and told him the above info. He wasn't at the campout and was surprised to say the least about what happened. No change in his decision to remove the boys.

During the discussion with the SM, my son said he was constantly being interupted by the SM when he was trying to talk. My son said "excuse me, I haven't finished speaking" and the SM went off on him about being disrespectful and that he wouldn't treat his teachers at school in this manner. My son replied that his teachers at school show him respect and let him finish his sentences. My son then continued that the SM should be showing the kids how to respect others and stepping on their speach isn't how to show respect. My son said it was all done in a conversational tone and not with "attitude".

Yesterday, my son called the Committee Chairman to get the name of the COR for the troop. He's trying to get everyone involved to reverse the decision. He was told that the COR had resigned (she was around for years, I just didn't know she was the COR) and that the Committee Chairman would be taking up the position in the future. As the CC and the SM are "tight" this isn't going to help.

Tonight, the parents of the deposed leaders are meeting to discuss what's going on and what we can do to help the boys. More about what we decide later.

The SM has reorganized the patrols, so the next election should give him the boys he wants as PL's. In an earlier post I explained how he does it.

The SM told the deposed boys that the venture patrol is a good thing and was a "reward" for them, while telling my wife it was a punishment. He's told several different stories to different people.

In answer to some questions;

The SM has been in place for about 20+ years and his troop was always known as a "tough" troop. If you got eagle from this troop, it was something. He's been trained etc. It's always been "his way or the highway". I've since found out that he has prevented several boys from getting eagle for whatever reason, I don't know.

The parents of the deposed boys are going to call the committee chair and request an emergency meeting of the committee. I'm going to call the district council and ask if they can send a representative to the meeting to at least watch if he doesn't have input. The longer I'm involved with this the more unfair it seems to me.

My son and the former leadership corps met with the scoutmaster last night. I believe the agenda was the SM telling the kids about the venture patrol. My son told me he was going to bring up other issues, but I'm not sure if he was able. Unfortunately, I had to work late last night and haven't spoken to him about the meeting. I will keep you posted.

I want to thank all the posters for their replies. I've been given a lot of information about the structure and reporting of a scout troop that I was unaware of. As soon as I get the report from my son, I'll let you know the latest.

Thanks

In answer to some of sst3rd's questions;

1) In speaking with the SM, he's been dissatisfied for a while and was "indirectly" showing his dissatisfaction. Nothing like "your doing this wrong, here is what you need to do to fix it" kind of thing.

2) They went on one camp out with only the leadership SPL, ASPL and the Patrol leaders along with the SM and ASM's. They've had several meetings at the SM's home. His formal leadership training through the county council was canceled by the county council and was never rescheduled.

4) The leadership have open ended terms. They don't expire unless the SM chooses to remove them, or they move up or leave the troop.

I believe that the SM is going to have elections for the new PL. How he usuall does it, is to rejigger the patrols so they contain most kids of one age and a member who's a year or two older. Usually the older kid is voted in as PL. This way the SM gets the people he wants (usually) and the patrols get to vote.

I'm not drawing conclusions about the scouts with parents as leaders. I'm just noting that from the outside it seems odd. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

Yes, I understand that you're only getting my point of view, but it's the only one I have :-)

Thanks for the help.

My son was the senior patrol leader of his troop until last week when he was removed by his scoutmaster along with all the patrol leaders (with the exception of the patrol leaders with Asst. Scoutmaster parents). He and the other patrol leaders were then forced to join a venture patrol. The SM said the boys weren't doing their jobs and if they were in business they would be fired. No serious problems, just a failure to lead. My son, needless to say is crushed, as are the other patrol leaders. My son says that scouts should be boy run doesn't think that the SM should be able to remove them in this way without a vote of the other scouts. My son called the council HQ and was told to check with the Committee chairman and see what the troop rules are. He's asked the Committee chairman if there is a constitution and was told there was not and the SM can do anything he wants. My son feels that with Venture Patrols being optional, how can he be forced to join one?

Are scoutmasters all powerful? Can they do whatever they want? Can scouts be forced to join venture patrols? I'm not one of those parents that meddles and always takes the side of their son. If he wasn't leading, the SM should have had a vote of the scouts and removed him. Fine with me. It's how he did it. If he was in business he would have been fired? He's a 16 year old kid, trying his best. The adults should have taught him how to lead. We also find it odd that the only patrol leaders that were removed had no parents as ASM's. The only kids that can't lead didn't have patents in uniform? Very strange.

Does my son have any recourse? Through the county council? I just want this done properly. If he gets voted out, oh well, that's the breaks. I want him to get a fair shake and the procedure done according to scouting rules.

My son who loved scouting for the last 4 or 5 years, is confused. His head is spinning and he's trying to get the decision reversed by going through channels. I'm glad he's trying. He's also going to propose to the committee chairman that the troop develop a constitution for the future good of the troop. For someone that can't lead, that seems like some leadership to me.

This scoutmaster has also had his eagle scout proposal for 7 weeks. Is this the normal time to get an approval? I think the SM is being mean by "firing" my son and holding his paperwork. We've told my son he might be better off leaving and starting over in another troop. He wants to work within his own troop to fix it.

Thanks for your help.