runintherain

I asked a question on this message board and when I got a couple of responses that this is not considered a big deal and was directly asked what I would do, I responded that I would keep an eye open and see if this kind of thing is a regular occurence and council my son not to accept a ride alone with a scouter. I also said that if this is normal behavior, I would discuss it with the CC and consider moving to another troop.

How is that throwing anyone under a bus? I think you need to relax a little. I am not a paranoid parent. Every parent was requested to take YPT and I did that. We learned in that training that there was not supposed to be one on one contact.

You can disagree with this being one one one contact and I would listen to your point of view with courtey, but labeling me as paranoid and throwing someone under the bus is just ridiculous.

And saying that I need to ready to be Scoutmaster id really not the point. What if I saw him take a kid into his tent? Should I not be concerned about that or report that unless I am ready to be scoutmaster?

Evmori, I am planning to keep my eyes open to how this troop does things and to tell my son that he should never drive alone with an adult other than his parent. If I see this going on again, I will mention it to the Committee Chair.

Our troop had a camp out this weekend that was about 2.5 hours away from our chartered organization. I did not go on the camp out, but when waiting for my scout to arrive back home I saw the scoutmaster and a scout pull up alone in the scoutmaster's car.

Now, they were immediately followed by another car and I know that the scout's parents and the scoutmaster are very good friends.

However, I still believe that to be against the rules of youth protection. Is that the case?

Basement, have you talked to the SM about this? We have had several similar discussions about advancements in our troop. I had a big disagreement with another ASM in our troop about the 10 requirements for 1st Class. We took it to the SM and let him decide. Of course, I was happy because he sided with me. There are many advancements that are open to a lot of interpretation.

The putting up a tent requirement is not one of those, in my opinion. In a life and death scenario when a scout needs a shelter, he needs to be able to put up a tent by himself.

I am curious how long you have been in this troop. I know it is hard to walk away if you have been there a long time, but if it has not been a long time you may want to just find another troop. The standards for advancement are very important and it sounds like this troop does not have any.

Maybe you can work on developing some standards with the SM and not make it personal about this boy, but at the same time get your message across and solve the problem.

Our troop reviews all merit badge earned anywhere, even summer camp. All the MBC's show up for 2 or 3 Saturdays and have 30 minute blocks of time the scout must register for. The requirements are reviewed by the troop MBC.

This has caused quite a division in our troop. Some feel that it is adding to the requirements, by making the kids meet with a second MBC, since the summer camp classes are taught by a MBC.

Others feel that the summer camp is not doing an adequate job of ensuring that the requirements are met.

My understanding is that it has been taken to Council and that they approved these extra sessions, but I did hear that some want to take it to national now that the Council said it was okay.

I know this sounds like I am a politician, but I can really see both sides of the argument.

My son attended a Reptile and Amphibian Merit Badge class at a local nature center, but their was no blue card or form given. He just learned a lot and is now meeting with the District Advancement Chair to actually talk about the Merit Badge and show his work and knowledge. I am the only MB Counselor for that MB in our troop and this troop strongly encourages a scout does not get counseled by a parent.

Again, some in the troop say there is nothing wrong with it.

I have recently had to talk to my wife about her obsession with our kids earning Eagle. Her Uncle is an Eagle and she thought it was the most important thing in scouting. Tonight I think we finally had a breakthrough.

On Wednesday nights our Troop has an opportunity to give back to our CO by doing some clean up at a supper. Tonight, my two sons in the troop and another set of brothers were the only ones that showed up. For the third week in a row. This is a troop of 55 kids.

However, 2 other scouts were there tonight for MB Counseling. They both left after their sessions and did not help with the cleanup.

So, who is getting more out of Scouting? Scouting to me is too often treated as what you can get out of it, instead of what you can put into it.

Perhaps that is part of the reason we have more Eagles. In our hyper-competitive society it is seen as all there is to scouting. I would much rather my kids earn the Hornaday Awards or all of the new National Outdoor Badges. But, that is up to them.

I am pretty happy with how our troop does merit badges. The boys are not allowed to do anything merit badge related during the meetings from 7:30 to 9:00, with two exceptions. They are allowed to turn in a completed merit badge before 8:15PM. Also, before 8:15PM they are allowed to request a blue card.

We do occasionally offer a Merit Badge taught as a class, but only on non meeting days. I was very impressed to sit in on a Cycling MB class a few weeks ago. It was a 4 hour class and not one thing was signed off on in those 4 hours. It was taught and then the boys were advised to get a MC Counselor and show them the skills they learned.

Of course, we were the MC counselors teaching the class. We even had enough to sit 1 on 1 with a scout and instruct them on how to change a flat tire. We sat by their side and gave advice and corrections. The boys were then told that they should go home and practice and show their MC counselor that they can do it without any advice.

The only question I have about it, is it okay to take them on group rides. The MB specifically says the scout should plan the rides. Does that mean if I have 4 kids going for the MB we have to go on 20 rides for each to plan 5?

When I first joined the troop I did not understand the process, but now I can see the difference in the older scouts who are entirely self sufficient and it is fun to watch.

lovethescouts, Boy Scout rank has nothing to do with age or height. Tenderfoot has many requirements that need to be satisfied. It is not just handed over to someone because they say they are a scout or have facial hair at 10 years old.

As stated previously, it requires at least 30 days but will probably take somewhere around 3 to 4 months for an active scout to achieve. The scout would have to have all these advancements signed off and then have a SM Conference and a Board of Review.

I agree with what many on here have said, about you taking a step back and let your son shine. However, this is a case where I would not recommend that. There is obviously a problem with this troop's organization or approach to Boy Scouts. I think you deserve to have those questions answered on how someone achieves tenderfoot without doing anything. You want to make sure your son is part of a program where things are earned, not given.

That is only a dis-service to the scout who received a rank he did not earn and I would not want to be part of a troop that hands out rank advancement just for being tall. Especially if my kid was short.

Please remember that age and height have nothing to do with it. In the last month we have had a 4'8' ten year old earn the rank (He came over at 10 years 6 months after earning his AOL) and a 5'6" 14 year old (He is a very active scout that knows his stuff but rank was not important to him until he realized his younger brother would soon be a tenderfoot) earn the rank.

I would suggest you read your son's scout book to help him along the way and make sure this troop is doing things by the book.

Tenderfoot takes a minimum of 30 days to complete, so if your son and this boy just crossed over than it would be impossible for him to earn Tenderfoot at the crossover. If someone at the troop level does not quickly realize they have a brand new scout that just crossed over as a tenderfoot, you may want to look for another troop. The SM and ASM should know the kids and the rules well enough to immediately correct this mistake. That would be my biggest concern at this point, if all the facts you have stated are correct.

Our Troop does a crossover ceremony for incoming Cub Scouts that have earned the AOL. The AOL presentation is the first part and then we have a crossover ceremony to accept them into the troop. As soon as the boys cross the bridge they get their Boy Scout neckerchief and epaulets. They then go off with the older scouts and are taught the scout requirements and are tested on the scout requirements. We then have cobbler and award the boys their Scout badge.

Are you sure you are not confusing tenderfoot and scout?

Thank You, ScoutNut. I had done a lot of searching, but the resources you came up with are better than what I found.

I am also wary of the power a CO has over a troop/pack. I have seen it be destructive in 2 cases now.(This message has been edited by runintherain)

The scouts that go to school in one particular town that we pull from have a 5th grade program. They are able to get it signed off on by bringing their certificate. The rest of the county no longer does it, as they have had budget cuts. They also cut the Police Explorer program in our town.

The local PD is willing to let me copy the notebook that they teach it from, so that may be our only option. I was curious what other troops have run into with this.

The Second Class Requirement 9a is one that a number of our scouts are having difficulty getting signed off on. I have spent the better part of the morning calling the local PD and some well known programs that they teach. The PD department says they have had budget cuts and would not be able to help. We have several home schooled scouts and several that joined as older scouts. The schools in our area teach this in the 5th grade.

I contacted D.A.R.E but they will only sell their program to Police Officers. Does anyone have any suggestions of a program they have done in Scouting to teach the kids these valuable lessons and help them advance in rank?

I was not a Scout as a kid, but I was a kid. Almost every year in Elementary School and Middle School I came in first in my grade on every event on the Presidential Physical Fitness. Except for pullups. I never did more than 2 until I was in my 20's. We are all made different and not every kid that cannot do pull ups is a couch potato. The real method for improving on pull ups is to lift weights. I do not believe that 11 year old boys should be lifting weights to the extent that it would take to improve on pull ups.

In youth sports, I see kids pushed beyond their limits all the time and every time I see a 13 year old with a torn meniscus or a 14 year old with a full rotator cuff tear I cringe. These injuries were unheard of when I was a youth. Of course, we were also outside playing all the time.

Our troop gives incremental credit on the pull ups. I even had a kid that did 2 to start and we gave him credit for 2 1/2 after 30 days. The scout did a 1:28 400 meter run at 10 years old. He did 30 push ups and looked like he could have done sit ups all day long. He improved from a 5'0 standing long jump to 5'6". I did ask him what he had done to practice pull ups and he said that he had gone to the school with his older brother and had him hold his ankles just like the book says. The point is that the kid was obviously fit and learned how to become more fit. So, we signed him off.

This is one advancement requirement where I think judgement should be strongly used.

Thanks, for the responses. Now the real tricky question I should have asked earlier. Is there any BSA documentation to support allowing someone who has not earned their Firem'n Chit to fuse a rope. I agree with you all. However, we had some ASMs who saw it the other way and were a little irate about it. One ASM was the father of the kid trying to get that requirement signed off. He is also the District Executive. Honestly, I was worried they were going to have ago at each other over it.

Would like to address it at our next adult leaders meeting.

Fusing a rope is a tenderfoot requirement. Do you require the Scouts to have their Firem'n Chit before using a lighter or candle to fuse a rope for that tenderfoot requirement? This came up at our latest campout for some younger scouts trying to earn tenderfoot.

The Firem'n chit requirements are all second class requirements. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

My part may have been a tad goofy and meant a little in jest. I have not looked at Scouts as a competition and I hope I never do. I get enough of that hyper-competitiveness from the rumble, tumble, live on the edge world of Junior League Soccer.

Perhaps I am being too protective as a Dad, but the thing that really upset me was when I found out that the boy had gone to an ASM to ask him essentially to re-check my Son;s book because he didn't think my son should be a 1st Class Scout.

I was kind of curious, so I gently asked my son on the way to soccer. Son, is everything okay with you and x. He replied, Yeah, Dad. X is my best friend at Scouts.

I know we have to let the boys work things out themselves, but I think my sons feelings would be hurt if he knew the boy he considers his best friend in Scouts is sneaking around behind his back, even if it is coming from the Dad.

So, when I made that comment about not telling anyone it was half in jest and half in not wanting people to tear him down for his goals and dreams. Perhaps the better thing to tell him is to always say it with a smile on his face.

I am open to suggestions from any more experinced Dads and Scouters. This kid didn't come with an instruction manual.

Moosetracker,

That may have just been my poor wording. I did not mean to say that he started out with the goal of 7 to 8 months. It just worked out that way. I said 7 to 8 months because that is the time frame we are in right now, since he joined in March. And he is almost done. The first time a goal was set was when he had his SM conference for Tenderfoot and the SM asked him to set the goals. That was in July.

Keep in mind he went to summer camp in June and did the Swimming MB and Mountain Man. Those two events, coupled with his previous camping knowledge covers a lot of 1st Class and 2nd Class requirements. I did not go to summer camp, but I believe the way they do it is to find an ASM at night and demonstrate what you learned to get the advancement signed off.

When we started I had no idea about any of this, nor did he. We did attend a wedding the week before he started and he has a Great Uncle and two cousings (all on his Mom's side) who are Eagles. The Uncle is still involved today, long after his son moved on. They all gave him the advice to not wait too long to get moving. He also got that same advice at our most recent campout where he received his Second Class. The outgoing SPL will turn 18 in February and is in a mad scramble to try and earn Eagle.

He had told my son good job on Second Class and then he asked my son to see his book. He told my son, look you only have 5 things to get signed off until you can request a scoutmaster conference for 1st class. My son told him that he just wanted to relax and the SPL told him that is what he did after he earned his 1st class and now he is struggling to get done in time, do well in school, have a job, girlfriend, etc.. This story was relayed to my by my son. It was a family campout and I was with my younger boys.

Anyway, later in the day the SPL asked him again if he had gotten anything signed off and my son told him no. He asked for his book again and asked my son to tell him the precautions for a Safe Float. This was one of the things he had left to do. The SPL picked this because the previous campout had been a canoeing trip and they had learned this in a meeting. My son knew most of it and the SPL encouraged him to take 10 minutes and learn the one thing he got wrong and go find an ASM and get one thing signed off. He did it and was happy about it. Will he always remember those rules? Probably not every one. I would bet most Eagles cannot recite the rules for safety afloat without a quick refresher. But I know he told me that he was glad the SPL had talked to him.

So, perhaps it is a matter of perspective. To someone that is rushing to complete their Eagle by 18, they feel it would be better to start quick and be gung ho.

The ASM that signed my son off did tell me that my son mentioned he wanted to be an Eagle by 14. I am not sure where that is coming from. I counciled my son to just take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. But I do not want to tell him not to try for what he wants.

But I will keep some of the points you have made in mind, along the way. And I will try and teach him that it is about the journey. I agree with you on that. But as long as he has that smile on his face I do not want to dampen his enthusiasm. If it starts to become a stressful thing, I will step in. I will tell him that he should not share that goal with anyone who will listen.

Thanks for your replies.

Moosetracker,

I like your analogy about traveling across country and I think I will tell my son that one to make sure he is appreciating what he is doing. It seems to me he is, but an extra check could not hurt. I want to make sure he is not feeling pressure from me. It will be a good check in myself as well.

I do have to say though, there is a third option. Just because someone is traveling slow across country does not mean they are enjoying it or learning anything. They could be staying in hotels and watching TV all night while eating fast food.

Pridhocas,

We actually do not have a new scout patrol. The new scouts are mixed with the experienced scouts. I am watching and learing and have read a few threads on here about that. Even in an existing patrol it seems the younger Scouts are always the grubmaster.

I guess I will just have to get used to Thursday night shopping trips at the grocery store. I have 3 more boys crossing over from Cubs in the next 3 1/2 years.

Stosh,

I will add that my son is doing his DC training right now. He was told that he had to be a 1st Class to be a Den Chief so he missed the training. An ASM is working out an individual study program for him now. He did that thinking he could be my DC for my Bear Den (and his brother's of course). Of course, I thought it would be better for him to do it with someone else and when they said they needed a Web I DC he asked if he could do it.

I certainly appreciate everyone's feedback and I try to learn from those I agree and disagree with. We camp as a family, in addition to Scouts and I know there are some advancement items he knows inside and out and some that he has probably forgotten already. I have a Web 2 that was working on Bowline knots and I asked my older boy to show him. He struggled a little with it and it was obvious to me he was not proficient in it. Given enough time I think he would have gotten it, so I challenged him to know it well enough to come to my Bear meeting and teach it to my Bears. We will see in a couple of weeks how it goes.

I probably should have told the entire story, but didn't want to be so wordy. The ASM in question who has a son a year older than mine, told me in his response to my email that his son has already completed 15 merit badges at age 12 and is not enjoying Scouts as much. What he doesn't know is that his wife and I had a conversation at a meeting a few weeks prior and she had already told me that she wishes her husband would not push their kids so much to get Merit Badges done. It seemed very disingenous to be worried about my kid, while pushing his own so hard. As stated previously, my son has no interest right now on Merit Badges. He is just about the outdoors.

I also wanted to add that my son would probably have never told me about the ASM telling him to slow down. I only knew because the ASM sought me out to tell me he thinks my son needs to slow down. That was how I became involved in it. Not because I was hovering. I wasn't even that worried about it, until the ASM that signed my son off on 1st Class 3 told me that the ASMs son approached him and asked him if he could re-check my son's book to see if he had really earned 1st Class 3. That makes me think that the ASM is telling his son that my son hasn't earned his 1st class.

That would be like me, as an ASM and MB Counselor, asking to see his son's 15 Blue Cards and re-checking them. It is none of my business. My son didn't ask him to sign off on anything. His son found out mine was close to 1st Class and made the issue about it, is how it happened from my understanding. If my son came to me and told me some kid didn't deserve something, I would tell him to worry about himself and not others.

Thanks for all the replies. The funniest thing is that I know my next son will be the exact opposite next year. He will love the outdoors but won't care one lick about getting things signed off on. My oldest interacts very well with adults and I think that is why this has been easier fot him. My next is very shy and sensitive. And doesn't have nearly the confidence, even though he is a great Scout, Student and Athlete. I hope Scouts will increase his confidence and belief in himself.

I didn't think that Boy Scouts was a blanket program that was the same for every scout. There may very well be some kids that need more time to master the skills and there may very well be kids that come to Scouts with most of the skills mastered, due to already having done them multiple times in Webelos or with family on camping trips.

I don't understand where the all or nothing approach comes from. And saying that you cannot get signed off on a requirement the first time you do it, seems to be adding to the requirement to me. If you can do it right and well the first time, why punish the scout by not signing him off.

The troop we are in does not have a new scout patrol. The boys go right into a regular patrol, so the existing scouts are very happy to have someone else do the cooking and be the grubmaster. My son has been grubmaster 3 times in 5 campouts. (He has been on 7 campouts but one was summer camput and one was a family campout)

My son seems to consider any time spent in a Scouting endeavor as fun and that includes service projects. I stated above that he has been on every campout since he has been a Scout.

No snow skiing yet, since it is only October. But we have a sign up for one in January that my son wants to go on. I just haven't decided for sure if we can afford it.

He just enjoys being around other Scouts. I could see someone being concerned about him going too fast if he walked around miserable.

But every Scout activity I have been with him at, he has a huge smile on his face. Maybe he acts differently when I am not around.

I feel like I have to add that my son is not on track to be an Eagle at 13 or 14, as some of you keep stating. He only become APL because there was no one else that stepped up (there were only 3 boys from his patrol at the meeting where they decided) and the only 2 merit badges that he has completed (or really even started) are those that were done at summer camp.

He seems to have no interest in doing MBs right now. He is just a kid who already knew most of the skills involved, because of the time we spend outdoors.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions made that he is not enjoying himself because he is getting things signed off. He has been volunteering for service projects left and right and none of those are needed for advancement.

Yes, perhaps I am too involved with this. It bothers me a little when I think my son is being treated unfairly. Time to just drop him off at the meetings.

I think I will ask my son how he feels about rescheduling his Scoutmaster Conference until next year.

I just found it kind of interesting that the only two people that seem to be so concerned about this are the two ASMs with kids his age. Everyone else has been encouraging him and when he had his tenderfoot Scoutmaster Conference, the SM asked him to set some goals. He set a goal of being a 2nd Class by September and 1st Class by the end of the year (which would be 9 months since he joined).

I wasn't there of course, but I assumed the SM was okay with this.

My son crossed over to his Boy Scout troop in March. He is having a great time and has not missed a meeting or a campout. He has also done almost every service opportunity that has come up. He went to a week long summer camp in June. Because of all this and the fact that he already knew most of the outdoor type things (we spend a lot of time outdoors, even though I was never a Scout), he is already doen with his 1st Class advancements. He still needs his Scoutmaster Conference and BOR.

His fast advancement seems to have rubbed a couple of the Assistant Scoutmasters the wrong way. They both have kids that came to Boy Scouts at the same time as my son. One of them also has a son that is a year older and just received his 1st Class.

The ASM with the 2 sons came up to me at a meeting 2 weeks ago (I am training to be an ASM, I just have BSALT left to take) and told me that he spoke to my son and told him to slow down. He said he is very concerned, that 1st Class should take a year and that is why they have the requirement 3 about 10 outings. My son has been on 6 campouts and has done 6 or 7 service projects. I will also note that he was signed off on 1st Class requirement 3 by an ASM that has been doing this a long time and is heavily involved in our District and our Council. This newer ASM said that the other ASM should not have signed him off on that. He also said my son would get burned out. He also told my son this same thing without me there.

I mentioned it to my son and I suggested he take his book to the SM and have him double check it. He came out to the car and told me the SM said it was all good and they scheduled a SM conference for a couple of weeks out.

The next day I sent the ASM who had approached me an email thanking him for his concern about my son getting burned out, but firmly stated that my son seems to be fine. He responded by saying that most ASMs do not count service projects and Eagle Court of Honors towards this requirement. My son was in an Eagle COH and also assisted in the kitchen prepping the food. He was asked to be in the COH because of the amount of hours he helped with the project.

I did not respond to his email, as I felt it would do no good. Well, he mentioned it again at the next meeting and at this point I started to get a little irritated. So I called the ASM that signed my son off on requirement 3. I explained to him that I did not want to use any names and explained the situation.

However, he already knew exactly what I was talking about. He said the ASMs son had approached him in the parking lot after a comittee meeting and asked him if he made a mistake signing my son off for this requirement. The scout is my son's patrol leader. My son is the APL. He is also someone my son thinks is one of his best friends.

I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement?

2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months?

3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this.

We are very invoved in a couple of sports and I see this a lot in sports. I was hoping Scouts would be different.