Oakville Tim

John-in-KC,

You raise some further good points. I appreciate your feedback!

I will say that the SM in the feeder Troop, on the job for a year or so now, was cordial and responsive when I sought a Den Chief for the only one of our Dens that really needed one. He readily forwarded the Troop's calendar and web site information for me to review.

A big part of what prompted this thread was: Should Web2 Dens FEEL like they're being recruited? As in, 'We know Web2s have a lot of options out there for a Troop, and we want to make sure you choose US.' Because that has never happened.

I'm not trying to be a prima donna about this, either -- no need to roll out the red carpet certainly for me. Maybe my ADLs and I were just naive about parliamentary procedure.

Scoutldr,

To respond to you, I should amend my 'gut feeling count' on how many of my Web2s will continue into a Troop. I believe three of my Den's five, my own son included, will continue.

One boy has a single Mom who believes fervently in Scouting. The boy has ADD-type issues and is rough around the edges socially but has a big heart. A second boy has always played lots of sports, but his Dad really wants him to stick it out for at least one year in a Troop and see what the program offers.

The two remaining boys -- both have parents who have long been extremely non-committal RE their sons contining into a Troop. Lots of, 'Oh, yeah, right, thanks for letting me know' kind of language whenever I've called with Troop information and outreach. Call me a failure for this, but I am at the point where I'm not going to beg any Web2's parents to have their son continue into a Troop. They either see the value in Scouting or they don't. They either want to take a little initiative to keep their son in, or they don't.

Thanks, LisaBob, for all the great feedback! Also I wasn't aware of the thread on first-year retention.

I certainly won't bore you with responses to the questions you posed, but all that you wrote will kick me into action in finding out.

Thanks again!

Mark, I too am in St. Louis...

Our Pack also traditionally holds the AOL and bridging at the Blue & Gold, for a couple of reasons. Being the CM as well as the Web2 DL, I can see why this has been effect.

Our 'Feeder Troop' is always eager to get the current Web2s moved up, and historically they plan a big campout for the very weekend after the B&G with the express goal of getting the new Scouts 'out there.' IMHO the Troop is not eager to come back a month later for a big bridging ceremony such as what they perform at B&G.

Further, in our Pack we really strive to get Pack meetings completed in 60-70 minutes, because they take place on a school night. Conversely, the B&G is our only event in which we have two hours of program time available, before the entertainer takes the stage. It FEELS as though this is the right event at which to give our Web2s the 'grand sendoff' they deserve.

My son is a Webelos 2 and looking very much forward to Scouting. I am the DL as well as our Pack's CM. Our Den is small, just five boys, and my gut feeling is that my son is the only one who will continue as a Boy Scout. The other Web2s and their families all have received the same information about Troop opportunities; thus, with a clear conscience I am most devoted to my son's finding a good Troop experience. That's what leads me here tonight, seeking your opinions.

My son could join our 'Feeder Troop,' although because of school district boundaries he never will attend the same middle school as the other members... he does know some of the sixth-graders, cordially but not much more than that. This Troop has probably 22 boys. Our Den did camp with the Troop in November, to meet our AOL requirements, and had a so-so time; not much interaction between the Scouts and the Web2s, and if attending Web2s ought to feel like they're 'being recruited -- we WANT you to join us' -- my boys said they didn't have that feeling.

Option 2 for my son is a small Troop -- only 10 boys as I post this -- whose members attend the same middle school my son will attend. Probably five current Web2s from the 'Feeder Pack' are moving up, and my son knows a few of them, being teammates in sports. The SM and ASM with this Troop are beloved but definitely grizzled veterans; the dads of the Web2s are enthusiastic Scouters who will have lots of giddy-up-and-go when they get a turn as SM and ASM.

My son, being 10-plus, tells me he had a 'great' time with each Troop and his body language showed he enjoyed a Troop meeting with each as well.

Based on how you found a Troop for your son, does one or the other Troop sound like a better fit for my son?

Thanks,

YIS

Oakville Tim

Hi to all,

I'm the CM and I have a dilemma that maybe you all have had yourselves and solved in years past.

Would you allow a non-Tiger Den to get started with a program even though it has the bad mix of huge numbers plus only one uniformed and trained leader?

We have 11 second-graders signed up and paid-up. Six of them are back from their Tiger year, and their DL is continuing.

We had our first Pack event Saturday, and at a split with the Wolf parents -- seven of the 11 families attended -- I had a chance to sit down and give my 'Speech 101,' which stresses the need for two-deep uniformed and trained leadership, but not a single 'ace up my sleeve' made a dent with them. Even my direct asks for additional DLs/ADLs produced no 'yeses.'

On top of it, the returning DL, a great but quiet, wallflower-ish kind of guy, told me and the other parents right then, 'I can try flying solo. I'm even willing to keep all 11 boys together. I can't guarantee it'll work, but I'll try.'

But I think I would surely be sending the DL to the gallows if I allowed him to try this.

I spoke with our Unit Commissioner about the situation, and his advice was: 'These boys need to get going. For right now, be satisfied in just recruiting adults to get uniformed. They can always be trained later. Let them see how good the 'restaurant' is, and they're sure to see the value in ordering 'dessert' (training) in due time. You won't get ANY adults to step up if you insist they get not only uniformed but also trained. But above all, get those boys going.'

Clearly, the best scenario would be if our five new second-graders became their own Den and I could recruit two adults to become uniformed and trained... plus one more to serve as an ADL for the great-guy DL I mentioned earlier. That'd make for three rabbits I'd try to pull out of my hat.

Not knowing whether this would succeed, I'm inclined to e-mail all the Wolf families and be the bad guy and say, 'Your son's program cannot be launched until we have the minimum number of uniformed and trained leaders as required by the BSA. All parents have a chance to give this program life by becoming U/T. The choice is yours.' Even if this would lead to kids being pulled out and parents demanding a refund.

How would you proceed if you were me?

Thanks,

YIS,

Oakville Tim

I am CM for our Pack, based in south St. Louis County, MO.

With a heavy heart, I post here asking for your prayers for one of our Bear Den Leaders, who has been diagonsed with inoperable brain cancer.

Steve K., who isn't even 34 years old, I think, had surgery a month or so ago but the doctors couldn't/didn't 'get it all.' We are told that Steve might not have more than a week left on this Earth.

He has been a devoted and fun DL for his Den and our Pack for three years now. His family -- wife, son/current Bear, and daughter -- are terrific people and beloved inside our Pack, and public school as well.

If you pray, please, then, pray for Steve and his family. Maybe there is a miracle in store for him, through prayer.

Thanks very much.

And also, hug your loved ones. Tell them you love them. And never part company being angry with them. Because the only guarantee we have is this one moment in time. Everything beyond that is up to, I believe, our God.

YIS,

Oakville Tim

One of the Bear Den Leaders in our Pack, based in south St. Louis County, MO, has been diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer.

Steve K.'s surgery a month or so ago didn't 'get it all.' As I (the CM) write this, he might have as little as one week left on this Earth. I don't think he's even 34 years old.

Steve has been a valuable member of our team for three years now, serving his Den and our Pack faithfully. He has been a fun and terrific Den Leader.

If you pray, please, then, pray for Steve and his family (wife, one son/currently a Bear, and a kindergarten-age daughter). Maybe there can be a miracle for him, through prayer.

Thanks very much.

And, by all means, hug your loved ones. Tell them you love them. Never part company angry with them. Because, the only thing we are guaranteed is this one moment. Everything beyond that is up to, I believe, our God.

YIS,

Oakville Tim

Hi to all,

I am the new CM for our Pack, and I want to start a monthly newsletter to be handed out at Pack meetings. This will be the first time we've had one, from what I can gather.

I have someone lined up to handle this for me, and now I am eager to show her an example of what other Packs do for their newsletter. Can anyone share their ideas with me? Maybe even a link to their own newsletter?

I have some basic components in mind -- a 'Happy Birthday, Scouts' corner, a Cubmaster's 'minute,' a jpg now and then of what one of our Dens has been doing, written updates from all the DLs, important calendar dates. That's about it.

We will go the KISMIF route, for certain, so I promise to leave your choicest ideas alone!

Thanks in advance -- I read these boards daily, enjoy them greatly, and learn something new every time!

YIS,

OT

Hi to all,

I am our Pack's Cubmaster effective with our Blue & Gold banquet -- our CM, ACM and CC all are 'graduating' with their sons.

The mother of one of our Wolves/going into Bears has pledged to tag-team in the CC duties. She is very skilled with computers, from what I am told (I have had just one conversation, very pleasant, with her), and she has already pledged to start a monthly newsletter.

My question is: For Packs that have a web site, how is the site content kept secure, available to member families only? What is the trick to preserving the security of a password?

(I am thinking here of the movie, 'War Games,' and how the Matthew Broderick character easily finds the password for the school's computers so that he can change his and Ally Sheedy's letter grades. Obviously I would fear such a 'hacking' event greatly.)

Maybe some of you who have a Pack web site can weigh in on whether it truly is valuable to your families.

What good guidance can you give me?

Thanks much!

YIS,

OT

I'm glad to hear you are still so positive about Scouting. Not a surprise to those of us who read how diligently you were trying to solve the problems at 'your last address.'

I didn't glean whether your son has indeed found another unit to continue seamlessly. (The fact that the DE has approached you about starting a Pack seems to further answer that.)

For all the great advice that SemperParatus offers, I would just add this caution -- just another point of view:

You KNOW the time and energy you spent trying to hold 'the old address' together. Are you ready to take on the same challenges at your son's school? Please consider that.

You clearly have a bank of positive energy ready to contribute. I'll guarantee you that some other 'quality' Pack out there -- even if it meant driving 10 extra miles to get your son to events -- would be thrilled to add you to its Pack Committee. I would fly you down to St. Louis if I could afford it.

You could simply fill one niche there, and do it right the first time and do so with enthusiasm. You would have one job, and JUST one, instead of the 457 that surely would accompany a startup.

(All this presumes that you could indeed find a 'quality' unit where your son would fit in -- with your church as the CO? With a neighbor kid's private school as the CO?)

By the way, I don't take my own advice very well. I am our Pack's new Cubmaster effective with our Blue & Gold next month -- our CM, ACM and CC all are 'graduating' with their sons -- and I have all these grandiose dreams of what our Pack could become. I have good relationships with all our Den Leaders and we have our first planning meeting this Saturday.

Very best wishes to you, TundraHawk!

TundraHawk,

(1) I believe greatly that your stepping down is bound to give you a mental breather. You SOUND as though you will benefit greatly from this.

(2) This will be a great opportunity for OTHER PARENTS to step up if they want the Pack to continue, for the sake of their own sons. They now will have the chance to get trained and start putting in the time, etc., you have so willingly been giving.

(3) If your son's Den has other 'quality parents' -- I mean, people upon whom you have been able to consistently count for any and all sorts of help with the Den program -- and your research reveals a 'quality' neighboring Pack, then perhaps your son's Den could transfer as a whole and remain intact, now inside a vibrant, thriving, 'alive' Pack. It's both possible and permissible.

Good, good luck to you! Keep us posted on what you decide and how things are going.

And remember: There's a reason the good Lord put eyes in only the front of our head!

TundraHawk,

It seems apparent to me, from reading this thread, that every reasonable suggestion you (and your husband) have brought to the table to revitalize your Scout program has fallen on deaf ears. You haven't indicated that any professional Scouters -- the Unit Commisssioner, the District Executive, and so forth -- have stepped up to assist you.

With apologies to SemperParatus (U.S. Coast Guard!!) and Eamonn and so many others whose posts I learn from each day, IMHO you have reached a point where it's time for you and your son to move on and find a new home for all the fun that Scouting will continue to offer him.

You ought to tell him, heart-to-heart, that you want/need to find a (nearby?) Scout unit in which you can resume sharing in the fun he is bound to have. That the remaining people in the current Pack are nice, and that certainly your son will continue to see those nice kids at school each day... but where Scouting is concerned, the workload you (and your husband) face will be too much for you, personally, to do any longer.

Your son is surely aware of the time you've been spending, and the many hats you've been wearing, for the sake of the current Pack. Being a Webelos 1, he isn't too far on the calendar from moving to a new school building anyway.

So, find a quality AND ESTABLISHED unit nearby -- maybe your son plays on ballteams, or goes to church with, some of the Webelos 1s in that unit. Make sure this is a unit with many good and willing volunteer adults and with all the key positions filled. One in which there is a tradition of 'How Can I Help?' entrenched well.

Fill out the transfer papers -- AND make sure and continue to contribute your obvious positive energy to the new Pack as soon as possible, so that your son can see the smile that's back on your face.

And when your son bridges up to a Troop, hey, maybe he'll see some of the boys back in his old Pack. Those who bridge up (and their parents) obviously will have found the answers themselves on keeping the old Pack alive -- with not one more ounce of your own energy spent on solving a problem no one in the old Pack recognized, as recently as last night's meeting!!

I think, TundraHawk, you have earned this peace of mind. Don't lose sleep, or give yourself ulcers, so early in this new year. You and your son have so much fun in Scouting to look forward to -- go now, and look for it!!

First of all, good luck!! It's a truly great effort you obviously are making.

I wonder if one of your parents is good with desktop publishing.

And, if someone from your Pack has a handful of quality digital images of your Pack activities throughout this school/Scout year. Could be inside, could be outside, could be from the same event, etc. Ideally, these images would include Scouts from all your age ranks.

A sort-of 'SOS' (Save Our Scouts) flier, with images of their own sons doing cool Scout stuff, could be presented at your heart-to-heart with your DLs and other parents. Maybe these fliers could be made to stand up, a la a tabletop decoration.

Short cutlines could accompany each image, such as: 'Remember how proud you were when your son helped bring in the national colors at a Pack meeting?' And, 'Remember how proud you were of your son during Scouting for Food?' Things like that.

And then you could add a short, heartfelt tag line, such as: 'Please help us keep our sons' Cub Scouts program alive!'

I have to think that a visual image of 'Little Bobby' growing in Scouts and doing cool Scout stuff, presented in front of his parents, might bring more of a response than verbal pleas from dedicated Scouters such as you and your husband!

Again, best wishes to you!!

All these responses are extremely interesting, and I am grateful to you all for your veteran perspectives! Makes me do a mental checklist about our own Pack.

I don't know if you encountered this, but our CO is the public school PTO and not once has it ever shown any interest in our Pack -- or our Girl Scout troop either, for that matter. The PTO has never had any role in our program. I have to think anyone in the PTO who has any interest in BSA would have her/his kid already in the Pack.

Still, Fuzzy Bear has good advice -- never take anything for granted.

I liked the suggestion about having a mandatory parent meeting without the Pack's soon-to-be-graduating hierarchy, for the purpose of finding the next CM, ACM and CC. It seems logical, with our group, that so long as the remaining parents SEE the hierarchy still here they are not likely to have any interest in succeding the hierarchy.

At our district's fall campout, I what-ifd to our Web2 leader, wistfully, that what ought to happen with our Pack is: At the end of B&G, our hierarchy walks out the door, and the Pack 'stops' right then and there... and no events take place in March... which in turn would get Little Bobby asking his parents, 'Why isn't there any Scouts anymore??' Which MAYBE in turn would get the parents thinking.

The guidelines on how to select leaders in the Cub Scout Leader Book are something I myself am guilty of never reading. I just know I found myself 'drafted' back when my son was a Tiger. I was not screened or anything -- I might've been an ax murderer, for all the hierarchy knew. It is no more exact a process in our Pack, all these years later, I'm sorry to say. Ours is clearly a pretty loosely run ship!

Thanks for your responses!

Fotoscout, your response rang especially true with me. It sounds a lot like our Pack.

Here's a tangent: In a Pack, is it standard or traditional for an outgoing hierarchy to recruit its successors? Meaning, their job's not done UNTIL they have recruited people to take over with the chain of command? Kind of a 'departing gift' to the Pack?

We have one new DL this year who's a go-getter and a good guy, but he also is a Type A-minus. I know him from another leadership setting and he's not one to wait around for a consensus before forging ahead. All our other DLs are great folks but 'look at the shoelaces' types.

I tussle back and forth with myself that, 'Heck, I can put up with anything for a year.' That kind of thing. At least I have something of an idea of what the Pack ought to be about. And yet, I'm already giving MORE than (LOL) my one hour a week to the program! Decisions, decisions!

Yes, it's only December, but I also think the time for SOMETHING to get done with this is now so that the transition can be smooth. I want my son and 'my other boys' to have a great Web2 year!

Do flowers work in coercing our wives?

Well, that's overstating it a little bit.

But have you ever accepted a key post in your unit without 100-percent eagerness? Is that enough of a 'red flag' to make you say, 'No'?

I am torn on whether to seek the CM post in our Pack, with the clock ticking on all of our hierarchy (CM, ACM and CC) ready to move on with their sons to a Troop effective at the B&G in February.

I am a Web1 leader, my son's Den, and have the most seniority among all the DLs, and yet I believe that our Pack's future success is based upon more people stepping up to do one thing rather than fewer people doing more things. Logical enough?

Plus, my wife REALLY thinks I don't need to take on any more jobs inside our Pack. Enough said there.

Still, the hierarchy's recruiting efforts, as far as I have witnessed them, have elicited nothing but folks looking down at their shoelaces. If there are behind-the-scenes talks that have been going on, I am in the dark. But no one speaks of any progress being made there.

Have any of you been in a situation like this before? How did you handle it? Can you lend an opinion? Thanks!