ML2

No problem Ed. I'll help as much as they let me w/o being registered.

When they draw the line, I'll move on to one of my other hobbies.

ML

Packsaddle, you're probably right. As a matter of fact, I recently received a letter from my son's council stating that his membership had expired. I contacted the Cubmaster who told me not to worry, his membership had NOT expired and that he was currently on the rolls.

Trevorum, I do volunteer as a parent. I go to all the council meetings and try to help wherever.

-ML

AwHeck, it's just too much information. How does the unit and district maintain it? I picture it in someone's 3-ring binder, then being forgotten or stolen and all the information lost.

As far as the background checks by the county...yes they were just for the time I lived in each county, for the past 10 years. Of course, aren't there nationwide listings of sex offenders? If the name matched, further investigation could be warranted. But, with no record, then it should be case closed. No need to maintain all my information in BSA's database.

But as it's been said, if that's the price for the priviledged membership, I'll decline.

-ML

"You are statistically more likely to have the information stolen by cousin ernie then from your scouting records."

Cousin Ernie doesn't have access; I don't know who has access at the unit/district/council. And, they're absolved if they don't protect it.

"I think most any unit would rather risk losing a good volunteer than endangering the safety of the scouts."

Maintaining a database of personal information about leaders is not the only way to obtain a background investigation. I have mentioned another method of providing a background investigation without having to have my information on BSA's database. In this day of computer hacking and identity theft, it just isn't prudent to disclose your most important information.

Just recently 40 million credit card holders had their information stolen from a database with "restricted access". Damages are unknown at this time.

I guess the priviledged membership is not for me. My family is more important.

-ML

"You are asking for the opportunity to work at close quarters in relative remoteness with other peoples children, where who you are and what can be your expectation of proper behavior is of great importance to the other parents, the Chartering organization the council and the BSA."

Actually, no. I didn't ask, I was asked, repeatedly. I would like to share my experiences and knowledge, I just don't want to unnecessarily expose myself to identity theft to do so. And the BSA wants me to absolve them of any responsibility for safeguarding my information at the same time.

"Again, It is your choice, you do not have to help provide information to help secure the safety of others in the program, but then the program does not have to allow you the priviledge of membership."

You're right BW, and I seem to have done just fine w/o the priviledge of its membership for the last 22 years.

-ML

ScoutNut, I understand BSA's reasons for the information requested, however, I do not feel that this information needs to be provided. Like I mentioned before, background checks can be done by the county clerk's office and submitted with the application. I feel that there is no need for that information to be maintained by any level in the BSA.

As far as the statement absolving the BSA, I agree with you. It is there to protect those who collected the information. That, to me, says that the information is vulnerable.

You're right about helping out without being a registered leader. I already do, but there are limits to one who has not registered.

-ML

BW, thanks for the assurances, but I feel the following information is relevant:

"U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) statistics indicate that over 27 million people have been the victim of identity theft crime in the last five years in the U.S.A. The FBI has estimated that the number of victims will increase be by 500,000 - 700,000 each year. They also estimate that on average victims of identity theft take 12 months before they realise they are victims of the crime and then take 175 hours to clear their name."

So while it hasn't happened so far, the stated policy statement,

"BSA Privacy Policy. The Boy Scouts of America protects the confidentiality of the names and personal information of those who are affiliated with the movement. No commercial or unauthorized use is made of the names, addresses, and other confidential information of members. Access to this information is strictly limited."

accompanied by my signed statement absolving them of responsibility for any breaches in security doesn't provide enough assurances for me.

-ML

Wingnut, based on your reply, I would have to choose to protect my personal information (and my family's future). The fact that BSA wants me to sign a statement absolving the people who will maintain my information from any wrongdoing or negligence leads me to believe that due diligence is not a priority. There should be some assurance that this information will be properly maintained.

I recently needed to submit criminal background checks from the county clerks of my residences for the last 10 years (for a different reason). I obtained these certified background checks and submitted them as required and yet the only information needed by the county clerks offices was name and date of birth along with the timeframe of the background check. Why is it different for the BSA?

-ML

I would like to volunteer my time as a leader in my pack, however, after reviewing the application, I am reluctant to provide the amount of information requested.

Here is the information that I do not feel is necessary, relevant or safe to provide:

1. Social Security Number (SSN). This is a non-paid position, so disclosure of the SSN should not be required.

2. Date of birth. At age 40, I feel it is pretty obvious that I am over 18.

3. Ethnic background. Why is that even relevant? Is it necessary to know someone's ethnicity?

4. Driver's license number. Again, unless I am in the position of driving scouts, why is this relevant? Even if I were to drive scouts, it should be sufficient to show proof of current license. I don't see a need for my number to be recorded.

5. Occupation. Again, what is relevant? Does it matter?

6. Employer, business address? See number 5.

7. Current memberships(in other organizations)? See number 5.

While I understand that some of this information would be used to do a background check, with the rash of recent security breaches of personal information by credit card companies, I am concerned with the security of this information. A copy of the form is maintained by the local council, the chartered organization and the unit. To me, that is far too much information in the hands of far too many people, with a big chance of unauthorized or accidental disclosure.

In this day, with the threat of identity theft on the rise, what other methods can we take to provide background checks yet eliminate the possibility of this information getting into the wrong hands?

Finally, in the signature block of the form, the applicant must sign the statement with the following clause "I hereby release and agree to hold harmless the chartered organization, local council, Boy Scouts of America, and the officers, employees, and volunteers thereof."

This seems to be a catch-all phrase that absolves them of the responsibilty of safely maintaining my personal information. Information which could be used to destroy me and my family financially.

What's one to do? So far I have avoided an absolute refusal to volunteer, but this is something that I have a serious problem with.

-ML

Seriously, show your target recruits what the position entails. Set them up for success and they'll be more willing to get involved.

Too many times when I'm approached to volunteer for something and I ask what is involved, I get the old "Don't worry about it, it'll be easy, there's nothing to it, we'll be here to help you. That tends to make me more leary of volunteering than convince me to volunteer.

If I know what I'm getting into in advance, then I'm more enthusiastic.

Try it.

-ML

I'm the father of my Cub Scout son. I have heard the baby sitter term mentioned before and must say that that term does not make me want to volunteer. I find it insulting and accusing.

I must counter that with the statement that I DO want to volunteer, mainly for two reasons:

1. I want to make the program better for my son's growth and development, and

2. I enjoyed being a Scout as a kid and want to do it again.

As parents most of us are continually juggling competing activities. Some have a lot to juggle, some only a few. Some can juggle very well, some are uncoordinated. As a parent and non-leader, I am continually asked to volunteer. Sometimes, even though I would like to jump in whole-heartedly, I hesitate because I don't know what the position entails or I don't know if I'm qualified. Something that I think would help a lot of parents would be what we used in the military called a Turnover Binder.

Have your current leaders create a binder of information concerning:

1. What the position entails.

2. What qualifications are needed/beneficial.

3. What activities are planned.

4. An after-action review of previous activities.

5. A list of points of contact.

6. A list of references for each of the activities scheduled.

Also include all the books & manuals and other publications from the BSA relating to your troop/pack to be used by the person in this position.

Also create an after-action review/report of each activity as you are planning and afterwards. Being able to read about what was done last time allows someone to better see what needs to be done this time.

I know that if this information were available when I'm asked to volunteer it will help me to make an informed decision as to whether my skills and schedule will permit me to do so.

Just my $.02

-ML

arichardson71,

My son moved to a nearby pack. During an initial conversation with the CM, he disclosed that he had several Cubs who had come from the other pack. He also relayed to me that he had requests from the DE to help the other pack, but when he approached them, he was turned away.

The pack my son is now with is one that the CC from the other pack spoke badly about. Yet, my son has been welcomed and is having a good time.

NeilLup,

If there was a unit Commissioner he wasn't actively involved. He was never identified nor present at any meeting.

-ML

It's kinda off-topic, but I sign my tax forms and consent to having the government take my money under threat of force and in fear of my life and my families welfare.

BTW, OGE, can I ask why you asked your original question concerning the other non-BSA organizations?

-ML

First of all, thanks to each of you for your comments. My reason for posting here was not to complain but to solicit others' opinions, advise and comments.

Second, I'd like to respond to some of the comments, first to better explain, and others to give my comments regarding their response.

It's long, and I apologize ahead of time.

nosretep,

1. "When they had the first fundaraiser - what was the outcome." - $3000 +

2. "EVERY parent should be involved with the cubscout program." Agreed. I believe I am involved. At a minimum, my son and I work on his scouting each weekend. He was the first Wolf Cub to finish his Bobcat requirements. Only he and one other Wolf have done so.

3. "I have a problem with the fact that you have lots of time to sit in the car and write long emails about good ideas but supposedly no time to implement these ideas into the pack." Thats a pretty strong statement. Lots of time to sit in the car was 30 minutes. Time to write my long e-mail was done after 10PM my time, and it doesnt take me long to type my posts. As far as you having a problem with it is of no concern to me.

4. "Sorry, I- like your sons leader - wonder why parents who have so much to say hesitate to step to the plat to do - something and anything other than complaining and sitting in the car." I have specifically spoken to the Den Leader on 3 occasions concerning helping her. Her response was words to the effect that the boys wont listen to meI need someone to make them behave. I have asked what the plan is for the following meeting to which she responded with words to the effect I dont really know what to do, the boys dont listen to me. She invited me to the Round Table meeting, however, it was cancelled then rescheduled after I had made other plans.

Zippie2223,

1. "Sounds Like a good start for only being active for a month." True, however, most of the activities were conducted by the parents while the cubs sat waiting for something to do.

2. "You have to remember that this is a Pack not a Troop. While Boy Scouting is more of a boy activity, Cub Scouting is a family activity. The leadership roles are left to the leaders and PARENTS." Yes I understand the difference. I am not advocating that my son become the leader of the den, but, leadership is on many levels. A young boy who wants to step forward and experiment with leadership should be encouraged, not told that he is too young, not ready, not his place, etc. As far as a family activity, I am very involved with my son and his scouting. We worked together on his Tiger Cub activities last year and are working together at home now. He has completed his Bobcat requirements together with me.

3. "Tigers are the only one that needs to have a parent at the meetings, but each den leader can make a rule requiring a parent to be at the meetings. In your case "The school principal has required that parents be present". - Yes, once explained, the answer was accepted as a requirement and no further discussion was necessary in regards to parents at meetings.

4. "Den meeting are not a place to dump your child off for an hour a week, this is not directed at you, but a lot of people will do this and never offer to lend a hand." I have been to all the other meetings (the only parent that is usually there, excluding the leaders), and as described above, have offered to help. But there is no program to help with.

5. "If the parents are there and the kids are still running around unsupervised, there is a parent problem not a pack problem." I would partially disagree here. I still believe that if the den/pack had a program that the Cubs could be involved with that the Cubs would not be running around. I would agree however, that many kids nowadays dont seem to get a lot of discipline from their parents. I helped coach my sons baseball team last summer and saw it there too. If my son hadnt been on the team I dont know if I would have stuck around. It was very frustrating.

6. "Your probably right, so jump in and lead a hand. You don't have to be a leader or any thing to run an activity." As I would have thought too, however, while talking with the CC last night about my stepping up, she mentioned how she met with her leaders 15 minutes prior to each meeting. I told her that I was unaware of those meetings. She responded that she wasnt required to tell me because it was for her leaders. Kinda made the point that if you arent a leader then to stay out of her business. And I gotta say that that was the general feeling that she projected. I dont know what complaints have been made previously, but I think that she believes it has been me complaining.

7. "...the reasoning for no activities was because they started late in the year and could not do anything else until they completed the Bobcat badge"

I though you said that they worked on that already. - I was using her words and being generous. In five meetings, only 2 Wolf Cubs have completed the requirements.

8. "When you plan these things a week in advance you don't know what the weather will be at the time of the meeting. I plan all my outdoor activities for when it gets warmer (November is always still warm here)." Id be happy for just about any kind of scouting activities, indoor or outdoor. And thats my main pointno activities yet.

9. "Why not be a leader?" - As I stated, I have personal reasons that do not allow me to be one of the leaders. I would love to be able to be a scout leader full time. I think that I could do a good job. But, it dont pay the bills, so I opted to try to help when I can. I dont have the time right now to develop their program for them. Maybe the current leaders dont either. I dont know.

10. "All I'm saying if you see thing not being run right "Jump In" and fix it or stop complaining." I attended the 4 previous meetings and did not complain, despite my not liking what was happening. I offered to help. When I was told that parents were expected to be present to supervise their kids, I gave constructive criticism, in private, after the meeting was finished. The CC said she wasnt going to take any criticism.

WWBPD,

1. "Remember that the boy, on joining, wants to begin scouting right away; so don't dull his keenness by too much preliminary explanation at first." - This is exactly what is happening. Lots of talk and explaining but hardly anything for the Cubs to do.

2. "The birth of a new Pack need not be a chaotic time if the adult leadership is there and is strong. It does take some time, however, failing to make it fun for the boys and get them 'scouting right away' is the critical task of a new pack - not raising funds." I agree wholeheartedly. I wish youd been there last night. Youve stated exactly how I feel.

EagleInKy,

1. "Bottom line - you need to get involved. It sounds like the den leader doesn't know what to do." Ive attempted to help. I cant be the leader right now. I am directly involved with my sons scouting.

2. "Second, Cub Scouting is not Boy Scouting. Don't try to turn it into a boy-led program. It's not." I understand the difference. I dont advocate Cub Scouts being boy led, but I wont discourage leadership at any level.

fotoscout,

1. "Im confused, what are we talking about Pack meetings or Den meeting?? Or do you not have separate den meetings???" - All the dens except the Webelos meet together at the same time/place. The CC runs the meetings except for the Tigers. They do actually have a program that they are following.

2. "Your kids should not be working on Bobcat materials at Pack night, if that is whats happening." - I agree, and that is why my son and I worked on his Bobcat Badge at home.

Scoutnut,

1. "You do not put every other activity on hold until rank has been achieved." Although I agree with you, it would seem that the CC does not.

2. "Since the school requires parents to attend all Scout meetings, why not chip in and help while you are there." Tried, to no avail.

Twocubdad,

Your post makes a lot of sense. Im afraid however, that after last nights discussion with the CC, my son would not be welcome. Ill definitely do things differently next time.

Anarchist

1. "BSA does not mean Baby Sitters of America!" - Not being there during the meetings is not an issue. The lack of a program and the refusal of the CC to acknowledge constructive criticism is what got my goat. I havent mentioned it previously, but she was quite condescending and rude during our discussion. I asked her twice not to raise her voice at me.

2. "Try to 'see' what is really happening before you trash the efforts of volunteers...and in the end they may be totally clueless and you may decide to search elsewhere..." Ive been there and observed and offered assistance. In my opinion they are clueless and dont want to hear about it from anyone else.

Thanks,

-ML

I agree with all the points mentioned. I could debate for days the issues about the cost, appropriateness, design, fit of the uniform. Basically, I'm not impressed with the uniform.

But, the issue that I believe RipVanScouter was presenting, which I agree with, is the leaders (at whatever level; Nat'l, District, Troop, whatever) who espouse the ideals of the BSA and yet blatantly or, with a wink & a nod, ignore the uniform issue.

I believe the uniform is important. I don't believe that it is the most important issue, but it is important. If there are problems with the uniform, then let's fix it so that it can serve its purpose instead of being ignored.

I have no experience with how Councils or Nat'l work. I spent my entire time with Boy Scouts doing fieldcraft, being deep in the woods, and counseling various merit badge classes at summer camps. But, I would think that Nat'l would listen if enough leaders got together and presented well thought out suggestions for changes to the uniform.

I also think that this forum is a perfect place to put together a proposal. If each leader here takes this issue to his troop and comes up with sincere proposals he/she could then take it to the District level and confer with other leaders. Put together a District proposal. Then move on to Council. Keep it moving. At some point the proposals could be fielded on this board to share ideas nationally.

Once a good proposal is attained, appoint a person to submit it to Nat'l and follow up. If Nat'l simply won't listen, then we have bigger problems than the uniform.

-ML

During my son's first meeting, the DE told all the parents about how they needed to purchase a uniform for their son, and then told them not to worry about purchasing the trousers.

It is a pet peeve of mine too that leaders/organizers etc. all over routinely contradict what rules state.

-ML(This message has been edited by ML2)

This evening's Cub Scout meeting was not good. It was the end of a failed beginning.

BACKGROUND: My son is a Wolf Cub this year and the pack did not form until October. Since then they have had 5 meetings, popcorn pick-up and a parade, during which no real activities have been accomplished. Here is a highlight of what has happened so far:

1. Organized the Bear, Wolf, and Tiger Dens.

2. Solicited volunteers to be leaders.

3. Passed out papers for popcorn sells.

4. Collected popcorn orders.

5. Distributed popcorn.

6. Began work on Bobcat badge.

7. Christmas parade.

8. Distributed papers for another fund raiser.

Although this may seem like a lot, there is no organization or activities at the meetings. If you review the list of things above, items 1-5 were activities that were handled by the leaders and adults. Only the Bobcat work and parade have anything to do with the Cubs. And the work on the Bobcat badge has been minimal.

After the last meeting, I talked with my son about how he can affect the den (help the pack grow) by applying some leadership to the other Cubs to get them to participate in the meetings by helping the Den leader (the Cubs run around out of control during the meetings) with the den's activities. I explained how troops are set up and led by the Scouts instead of the adults. So I was pleasantly surprised when he asked me not to come inside the meeting so that he could work on things himself instead of me getting involved and helping him with everything (we work on the scouting stuff at home). Also, he wanted to get involved with the leadership of the den.

So I waited in the car while he went to his den meeting. After 30 minutes, the den leader came out and told me that my son could not attend the meeting unless his parent was present (this goes for all Cubs). So, of course, I went inside.

When I came in, the Committee Chairperson was explaining to the parents about a new fund raiser and continued for another 10-15 minutes. I asked my son what he had done so far and he responded "Nothing." After the fund raiser speach, the Wolf den leader then presented the Committee Chairperson with cup cakes to celebrate her birthday and afterwards the meeting basically fell apart.

I approached the Committee Chairperson to inquire why parents must be present during meetings and was told:

1. "I'm not a baby sitter."

2. The Cubs run around unsupervised.

3. The school principal has required that parents be present because the Cubs have been seen running around unruly during the meetings.

I responded to her that maybe they were running around unruly because, based on my observations, that there were no activities for them to do and they were bored. She became loud in her speech and told me that the reasoning for no activities was because they started late in the year and could not do anything else until they completed the Bobcat badge. Also, no outdoor activities during the winter because the Cubs might get sick (temperatures for the last few days has been in the 70s).

We continued our verbal discussion but I dont think the connection was made about having the traditional scouting activities (crafts, games, etc) during the meeting to keep things interesting and fun. She asked me why, if I had such good ideas did I not step up and become a leader. I told her my reasons, but of course they werent good enough. Id like to get involved, but am not available right now. Soon, once things get a little settled, I hope.

Finally, to end the discussion she stated Im not going to take any criticism. I responded that it is through constructive criticism that we learn how to do things better. She had made the statement earlier that she was going to get a suggestion box because some parents had been complaining that she and her leaders were not doing their jobs.

So, based on my observations of previous meetings and this discussion, I am taking my son out of this pack and will look for another.

I would appreciate your comments, on my observations, the pack, the Committee Chairperson, etc.

-ML