JWKnoll

My post was a statement on the facts and possible solutions within the BSA policy. Certainly the couple can discuss what resolution they prefer, but the youth is not in violation of anything and doesn't need to take any action. Assuming the youth wants to stay in the crew, the adult must break off the relationship or step down as a crew leader.

Temporarily dropping the adult from the crew roster is a simple way to resolve this. It does not prevent him from participating in any crew activities while the couple continue their relationship. There should be very little, if any, impact on the crew.

Our crew has the potential for this situation occurring in another year or so. It's not that unusual.

Do I think any of these are ideal solutions given the background on the couple in question? NO. But you follow the policy or you don't. It is not a guideline that can be adjusted at one's whim to fit one's circumstances. Given the media's penchant for vilifying the BSA at every opportunity I would not want to be found knowingly in violation of the policy should something go horribly wrong. And things can go horribly wrong in more ways than you can imagine.

It's amazing what someone can deduce about a person from a short post. Actually, I've been an adult leader of a co-ed crew since 1999, taught VLST/YPT many times, and served many years on the Venturing Committee of a large council (500+ crews), among many other things. My wife is a Boy Scout resident camp director and has a couple dozen female Venturers on staff. My daughter, son and son-in-law have both been involved with co-ed crews as youth and adults, including staff and leadership at council, regional, national and international events (Philmont, National/World Jamborees). I've seen and heard enough horror stories to know not to take the risk. For those that believe they know better and want to assume the risk, that is their decision.

The adult that is fraternizing is the one that is in violation of the youth protection policy. He should either break off the relationship or resign as a crew leader, assuming the youth wishes to remain a youth member. Old Grey Eagle pointed this out very early in this thread.

The CC is responsible for approving adult leaders and the COR is responsible that the charter holder follows the BSA policies. If the CC or COR is aware of the violation, they should take appropriate action, which may mean temporarily removing his membership until the situation changes such that the fraternization rule no longer applies (ie, married, relationship dissolved, or both 21+). In this case, where the adult is trying to follow the rules, it seems that can be handled amicably.

It's a tough situation based on the BSA policy- but IMO the entire YPT policy is a mess that needs to be rewritten.

First- just a clarification on terminology. There is no such thing as a "Venture Crew" in the BSA. This term was used back in the 80's and 90s before being changed to "Venture Patrol". A Venture Patrol is an optional patrol of older Boy Scouts within a Boy Scout Troop. A Venturing Crew is a separately chartered unit that follows a different program (Venturing), has different methods, leadership organization, membership criteria, advancement program, etc.,etc. Unfortunately the terms are very similar and when used incorrectly can lead to a lot of confusion. The easy way to keep it straight is to remember the word Venture never applies to anything related to Venturing.

As pointed out, new Venturing Crew members need not come from troops. Since the age ranges for Boy Scouting and Venturing overlap, there is no concept of "crossing over" as with Webelos to Boy Scouts. In fact, few of our Venturers come from troops.

We have occasionally picked up a few Boy Scout drop-outs (also former girl scouts). We do have a few dual-registered Boy Scouts as well as girls currently in GSUSA, and some from both that have aged-out (since Venturers can go to age 21). However, most members are recruited by friends or join via word of mouth. Often parents will inquire about the "green shirts" particularly when they see a co-ed crew participating or staffing some event.

We do not actively recruit from troops. We tried this many many years ago and found it usually generated animosity because many troop leaders see Venturing as competition for "their" older scouts.

Bottom line: anyone in the age range is eligible to join. No prior scouting membership or experience is required. That represents a large universe of potential members.

High school age youth have a lot of demands on them and not much control over their own schedule, which is mostly driven by coaches, teachers, parents, jobs, etc. Venturing can alleviate some of these issues because there is not the rigid expectation of attendance at weekly meetings and monthly outings. Still, you will need to have a relatively big crew to get reasonable participation level at most activities, as many will have schedule conflicts.

First I would recommend you seek out experienced crew advisors in your district or council and get some feedback and advice from them. Review the Venturing Leader Manual, take the adult leader training, and go to roundtable. That should help you develop and refine your vision.

Discuss your vision with the boys and see if most can agree it is workable. Things to consider are:

- frequency of meetings and activities

- primary activity focus, secondary activities, trips/super-activities

- single sex vs co-ed

- Crew organization and Youth Leadership

- Uniform (yes/no, what)

- Recognition/Advancement Program

You should also discuss with your CO, particularly in terms of adult leaders. If you think it is tough getting Webelos to join a Troop, I would say it is harder to get high school kids to join a crew. By then most have settled in on their interests and are committed to various activities. And you're less likely to even see parents- many youth will drive themselves to the meetings. You obviously will need some adults for the crew committee and advisors so you'll need to seek out those that would be interested in your crew's activity focus. Your CO should help here. You also have possibilities with your current troop's adult members.

If you plan a co-ed crew, you will need co-ed adult leadership. I would recommend at minimum of 3 associate advisors of each sex. You cannot be successful depending on the same couple people for every event. However, since most of the planning and execution should be done by the Venturers, the burden on adults is lighter. That makes it more likely that parents or other adults would want to participate in some of the activities.

If you decide to start a crew, I would recommend you still keep the troop, at least one more year- even if it is not very active. There is so much effort to starting a new troop, it's a shame to fold it up. You're also likely to get more support by proposing creating something new (a crew) than shutting down the troop. You could keep the boys registered in the troop, and dual register them in the crew for no additional fee. This would also make it easy for the boys or troop to participate in Boy Scout events as well as Venturing events.

Not every Webelos scout wants to join a troop of 90 boys. Work with your CO and you might be able to rejuvenate the troop with some new boys and their parents as leaders. Ultimately this will help with recruiting into the crew.

Social activities are a big part of Venturing. As my daughter says, its not so important what the activity is, as who is participating. Our crew has one business meeting a month, and usually one social get together (ice cream, pizza, Starbucks, etc...). We usually have one activity per month, a major activity every 3/4 months, and a super-activity every year.

As with any unit, it's the chartering organization and unit leaders responsibility to see the methods are carried out, the aims met, and the youth are getting benefit from the program. There are the same issues you stated with Packs, Troops and Teams.

Certainly there are struggling crews. Venturing is relatively new and doesn't have the wealth of experienced leaders, commissioners, and professionals that 95 years of Boy Scouting has built up. The fact that each crew many need to put significant effort into developing their program makes crew operations more difficult than Boy Scouting. Still there are many well run crews and many youth benefiting from the program.

Venturing is not for everyone. If you're not comfortable with Venturing's flexibility or don't like it for whatever reasons, that's your prerogative. However, throwing insults at the Venturing Program because of what you have seen from certain crews or leaders isn't productive or scout like.

A lot of good comments...

The council professionals that are confused about the Venturing Program don't report to the Venturing Division, so I don't see how Venturing can be responsible for them. National Venturing provides material and courses. Could there be more and better promotional and training materials? Certainly, but people have to take some initiative to learn, too.

National Venturing isn't struggling with Venturing's identity. They know exactly what the Venturing Program is. It is a program for older youth to pursue their interests, grow, develop skills, and become good citizens. It is an extremely flexible program... and therein lies much of the problem. People who expect Venturing to provide a well defined, highly structured program with detailed materials are going to be woefully disappointed and frustrated.

Confusion is also created by those who try to define Venturing by what crews do. Venturing does not come with an integrated activity program like Boy Scouting comes with its outdoor program or Sea Scouting comes with its nautical program. You cannot define Venturing as a whole by the activity program crews do, because each crew develops its own program. So, naturally when many crews try to explain Venturing by what they do, you'll get all kinds of answers like the chaos mentioned.

National Venturing cannot possibly provide materials for every conceivable crew activity program. They provide the basic structure and generic materials and processes, some outlines and forms, etc. It is the job of each crew to tailor these to their needs and obtain whatever else they need, such as detailed activity materials, from other sources. This is also where consultants come in.

The variety of crew specializations also brings challenges on district and council levels. If you are going to do district or council Venturing activities they usually need to be pretty generic.

As far as starting crews from troops, a book could be written on that subject.

Those interested in learning about Venturing might find the National Venturing website useful: http://www.scouting.org/venturing There is basic information about the program and its history. You can also take Venturing Fast Start online. The descriptions of courses offered during Venturing Week (Aug 14-20, 2005) at Philmont Training Center are also listed. For those serving at council and district levels, the "Venturing District & Council Admin" course would be useful.

I don't know anything about grandfathering uniforms. I'm just going by what the Insignia Guide says.

It's true that many crews are spawned by chartering organizations using adult leaders experienced in the Boy Scout Program. A crew can, if it chooses, develop their activity program to follow a traditional scouting program. They could chose the BSA Venturing uniform, form patrols, plan an outdoor program, teach scoutcraft skills, emphasize leadership development, work on Venturing's Outdoor Bronze and Ranger awards, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! The important point is, such a crew program is only one of a vast array of possible programs a crew could develop, not the only one they must follow.

Venturing does not come with an integrated activity program like Boy Scouting comes with its outdoor program or Sea Scouting comes with its nautical program. This seems to be the point most people have trouble with. They want to define a program by what a crew is doing on the surface, rather than what its aims and methods are.

I have no doubt Venturing in "sold" in particular ways. Certain aspects are emphasized to troops, other aspects to religious groups, other aspects to sports clubs, etc. If a crew runs a outdoor program they likely will sell those features to Boy Scouts. A religious youth group crew is probably more interested hearing about activities related to the Religious Life Bronze Award than a 70 mile backpacking expedition at Philmont.

Some councils have a lot of experience with Venturing, others don't. Some have many professionals knowledgeable about Venturing, others few. Peoples understanding and perceptions run the gamut. IMO, a little training could go a long long way toward improving the understanding of Venturing.

Venturing was rolled out somewhat hastily in Fall 1998 in an attempt to separate what was Exploring into two programs: one that was scouting oriented and had moral membership requirements and another that was career oriented without moral membership requirements. It's true there have been changes, but change is ongoing in all the BSA programs. Venturing is relatively new and most changes have been to move Venturing away from Exploring and Boy Scouting.

I don't see any confusion at National Venturing. I agree there is a lot of confusion among long time scouters and professionals, many of whom assume that Venturing is "advanced Boy Scouting with girls." It isn't. But I don't see that as National Venturing's fault. There are materials and training available. Some Venturing basics are covered in New Leaders Essentials. There are Roundtables, Venturing Specific Training; some councils offer Venturing courses at University of Scouting. People need to attend and learn about Venturing instead of assuming they know all about it.

There is a BSA Venturing Uniform. However, it is a crew decision to adopt it, or develop their own, or not have a uniform at all. I've never heard the spruce green shirts were meant "mainly for LDS crews." This seems odd considering BSA supplies green blouses and LDS Crews don't have females. And green shirts have been part of various senior scouting programs over the years since at least the 1940s. There is quite a bit of Venturing material that shows crews in polo-shirt or tee-shirt "uniforms". Members who are active at district or council levels normally wear the BSA Venturing Uniform, because crew defined uniforms are obviously not uniform from crew to crew.

Each Chartering Organization can tailor the BSA program for their goals. It's true that the LDS have restricted their membership and tailored their programs. That does not mean their Venturing Crews are not "doing" Venturing. Venturing does not come with an integrated activity program like Boy Scouting comes with the Outdoor Program. Outdoors is not a method in Venturing. Each crew can define their own activity program. There are crews that are marching bands, car clubs, ham radio clubs, historical reenactors, photography clubs, service clubs, religious youth groups, scuba clubs and just about anything else you can imagine. I'm sure long time scouters have a difficult time comprehending this compared to the highly structured and integrated Boy Scout Program. I am not knocking either; just pointing out they are different.

The award program in Venturing is totally unlike Boy Scouting. Advancement is not a method in Venturing. From what I have seen, few crews create an activity program oriented toward earning awards and only a few Venturers actually pursue awards on their own. There are no ranks in Venturing; no merit badge program. I don't understand how anyone could even try to compare Ranger and Eagle. They are totally different awards. Ranger is strictly an advanced outdoor skill award without any leadership or service requirements or Board of Review.

I agree that Venturing needs to be separate and distinct from Boy Scouting. But IMO it is the misinformed scouters and professionals, not National Venturing, that consider Venturing as a glorified Boy Scout Troop for older teens. People need to learn about Venturing and understand what it is and what it is not. I think a little training would go a long way toward eliminating some of the arguments and animosity you have described.

Our council will be hosting a group from England this summer. In talking with one of their leaders, they have apparently changed the name of their Venture Program to Exploring. Kinda ironic as the BSA did somewhat the opposite. There is still an Exploring Program, but it is part of Learning for Life which is not a scouting division. LFL is actually a separate company owned by the BSA.

In the BSA, a youth member of a Venturing Crew is called a Venturer, not a Venture Scout. The leaders are crew officers (President, Secretary, Treasurer, and a number of Vice Presidents). Adult members are Advisors (and assitant advisors) or committee members.

Venturing also has different methods from Boy Scouting. In particular, Uniform is not one of them (nor is Patrols or Outdoors). Looking at the Forms page on the national web site, under "Uniform Inspection Forms", there isn't even a form listed for Venturing. Can you be more specific to what you are refering to?

I don't have an Insignia Guide handy, but many uniform items are common across all programs. I am not aware of any headgear rules with Venturing, nor am I aware of any crews that have specified head gear. In practice headgear seems to be an individual thing. Venturing members who do wear hats usually wear the brimmed/bush style. If someone wanted to wear a campaign or expedition hat, I don't think anyone wouldn't have a problem with it. Somewhere I've seen a Venturing Logo hat pin, but I didn't see it listed in the 2005 BSA Supply catalog.

Perhaps I can help clarify some things. First, there is no such thing as a "Venture Crew". A unit in the Venturing Program is called a "Venturing Crew." Youth members are called "Venturers."

Venturing Crews may define their own uniform, if they chose to have a uniform at all. They may choose to use the BSA Venturing Uniform. However, if they do, they must follow the BSA uniforming rules as defined in the Insigina Guide.

Green Loops are worn *ONLY* on the (green) BSA Venturing Uniform shirt or blouse - never on the kahki shirt - exactly as the Insignia guide states. No Exceptions. In the early years of Venturing, Adult Venturing Members were allowed to wear the khaki shirt. This was changed several years back; now both youth and adults in Venturing wear the green Venturing shirt, never the khaki. Green loops are for Venturing only, thus the "green loops on green shirt only" in the Insignia Guide. Members of Venturing serving at district, council, or national levels wear the appropriate colored loops on the green shirt (ie silver, gold). For example, Venturers serving on the National Venturing Cabinet wear gold loops on their green shirts.

Members of Boy Scout Troops, adult and youth, regardless of Venture Patrol, new scout patrol, or anything- Boy Scouts wear red loops. At least since the creating of Venturing they never have been able to wear green loops. Regarding the DE who claims there will be a change - I believe there was some serious misunderstanding or miscommunication. Our Council Venturing committee has had several members at Philmont Training Center Venturing Week every year, and this certainly would have been mentioned if true. I suspect the situation described with Venture Patrol members in khaki shirts with green loops is actually Venturing Crew members who are wearing the khaki shirt when they should be wearing the green shirt.

Regarding confusion with the Uniform Inspection sheet, what is the date on it? Most likely it is (way) out of date with respect to the Insignia Guide.