Jschlich

It is a pleasure to pass the word that the sales agreement for the Chicago Council to sell the Owasippe property has been terminated.

Also, a Stipulation And Order Of Dismissal [with prejudice] has been agreed to between the Chicago Council and the Township concerning the zoning issues that have been in court.

Several years of grass roots effort by many has been recognized by these actions of the Chicago Council.

The complete message from the Council President can be found at www.chicagobsa.org.

nldscout -

I ask again. Will you be the first to underwrite the expense of such action?

There has already been $1-million spent by the Chicago Council with the result being that the court ruled in favor the township. I suggest that the feelings of many about the CAC is reflected in the above comment concerning popcorn.

Perhaps starting with your underwriting the Council can spend it's dollars on programming and leave the legal expenses of appealing a court decision to those who want to donate for the purpose of the appeal.

Much seems to be happening that can cure the ills of CAC so why not let it evolve as it will?

anarchist -

There has been several years of rank and file membership objection.

Over the past few years the COR's have not elected the board slates that have been proposed. Currently the Board that sits is one that was selected through the BSA Central Region office. Also, the current SE has been appointed by BSA National to administer the Council.

Not sure that heads are on pikes but there are many who set out down this course no longer a part of the Board. A hand few of those who voted to go down this course are still around but seem to have flip-flopped.

nldscout -

Will you be the first to underwrite the expense of such action?

There has already been $1-million spent by the Chicago Council with the result being that the court ruled in favor the township.

Perhaps with your underwriting the Council can spend it's dollars on programming and leave the legal expenses of appealing a court decision to those who want to donate for that purpose.

Owasippe operated 6 weeks of camp in 2008. Opened 6/29. Last day was 8/9.

The core issue of the Chicago Council decision to sell Owasippe has not changed. That was decided more than 3.5 years ago. At issue has been the decision to sell to a residential developer. The Council took on an obligation to sell to the developer, in exchange for over $19-million. In addition the Council took on the obligation to have the entire property zoning changed from Recreational to Residential.

The Council has already spent more than $1-million to effect a zoning change. The expense has been paid from Council operating funds. There has been no special fundraising nor appeal for financial support from the Council to demonstrate public support for the property sale. The $1-million spent have come from the donations and fund-raising effort of the Council.

Support appears to be strong for the Council from within the Chicago donor community. The Council has had continuing success in increasing the operating income from institutional and private donors through the many fundraising efforts aimed at the donor community.

The Township, defending their local zoning ordinances, has spend in excess of $250-thousand. The expense has been paid from the Township operating funds as well as donations from other governmental units state-wide and donations from individuals.

Support appears to be strong for the Township from a broad coalition of governmental authorities and individuals from across the nation. The township has had continuing success in increasing the donations to their specially dedicated legal defense fund.

On the legal front, the Circuit Court complaint filed by the Council has been heard and decidied. Each and every point of the Council complaint has been found in favor of the Township. The process was a bench trial heard over 9 days.

The Council has decided to go forward with an Appeal of the Judgement and is in the process of filing what is necessary with the Michigan Court of Appeals.

The issues of Council governance still remains a subject of interest to some. The basic lay of the land there is that the National BSA Council has installed one of their employees as Scout Executive/CEO for the Council for day-to-day operations. The SE/CEO reamins on the National Council payroll during his current assignment. Also, the National BSA Council has selected a new Board of Directors to be seated as the Directors of the Council.

I hope this summary answers the questions.

nldscout writes,

"If I was ruling on this, I would rule against the township. I beleive they are in the wrong here."

Amazing!

You're offering a ruling based on not hearing [or even reading] the 9 days of court testimony. Based on not having read the 4+ file boxes of evidence and pleadings.

Have you even read the 19 page Opinon?

I have done all of the above.

Still waiting for contact outside this group concerning your wager offer.

nldscout -

I guess the only thing I can respond with is the final words from who you call "a local judge" along side the final words of the Supreme's in the 2005 Kelo vs. New London case:

Local judge: "this court declines the invitation to thwart the will of the public as expressed through the Township Board."

Supreme's: "The Court declines to second-guess the wisdom of the means the city has selected to effectuate its plan."

I'll entertain your offer of a wager outside this group.

Thank you SSScout for your question.

The 5+ year effort of the Owasippe Outdoor Education Center (OOEC)to preserve the Owasippe property and to assure that Scout camping is preserved on the property would appreciate any financial assistance.

The OOEC is a 501©(3) organization with it's Vision for the preservation of the property, including America's oldest Scout Camp, at www.ooec.org.

Jim Schlichting

Whitehall MI

A Circuit Court Opinion has been issued that solidly sides with the township's zoning of the Owasippe property.

Residential housing as proposed by the Chicago Council has never been allowed on the property and has ruled that the township has the ability to maintain that designation.

With probably more than $1-million already spent on the case it has been stated by Council officials that an appeal will go forth.

LH writes:

"My plan was to never let this get started but there was no support for that because "It will never happen". My plan was to stop the sale at the beginning when Stone's track record was revealed. "

So you have no plan now and you prefer what you said, "...I hope Stone wins and builds as many one room shacks as he can."

So sad that you choose to support residential development over the conservation of natural resources. It's amazing how many Scouting members truely have their own selfish motives and would rather trade natural resources for the maximum cash-in to run the business of Scouting.

########

LH further writes:

"In your search of assesment records did you find any other "same zoned" property that was "reassesed" at the same time CAC's was reassested? The other camps not owned by CAC you mentioned for instance."

My research found that the all of the commonly zoned property was increased at the same time. What did you expect me to find? Did you expect to find that CAC was subject to, as you have called it in the past, "resort rates" that no other camp was subject to?

Need I remind you that except for Blue Lake Fine Arts Camp no other camp in the township exceeds the property tax exemption of 400 acres granted for not-for-profit property?

I found that the 4,300+ acres owned by the CAC, the acres above the exempt allowance, had taxes levied at the rate of all other property zoned the same in the township.

LH writes:

"I can only figure that your are referring to the sale of Owasippe Lake which to my knowledge occurred after the change in tax assessment, and some say as a result of the reassessment. Land adjacent to CAC's as I understand it was NOT reassessed at the higher rate at that time. That is to say all the property in that area of that zoning type was not reassessed at that time."

I am refering to the CAC disposal of about 8,000 acres of Owasippe property which included Owasippe Lake and all of the Owasippe property that was between that Lake and the current Western boundary of the property.

This property disposal (almot twice the size of what reamins of the Owasippe property) created the value that was assesed on the remaining portion of the property.

Your statement of understanding is just plain wrong. Perhaps you need to go to the Muskegon County records as well as see the assessor records and ask questions of the assesor to know what the actual evolution of taxes on the property have been. Something that I have done. Is your information based on looking at the documentation and discovering the time line and various events or.... is it based on some campfire talk based on speculation?

I'd still like to know where you came up with the information you gave that the Owasippe property was once assessed at "resort rates"? What resort? What proof do you have for saying that?

****************

LH further writes:

"That says it all. This is not a plan to save "Owasippe" it is a plan to prevent houses being built. Opening the 4800 acres to the public seems like a funny way to "preserve the flora and fauna" and continue the near 100 year camp traditions."

Where is your plan? It's real easy to sit by a keyboard and dispense false information, dis people, make judgements and do nothing constructive. You seem good at it.

For five years others have done some very heavy lifting to keep the remaining Owasippe property from becoming a housing development.

Ahhhhh...yes. I found your statement, you need not explain further. As you said,

"IF those originators of the save OWASIPPE campaign sought to use the name and emotional power associated with it to champion their fight then I hope Stone wins and builds as many one room shacks as he can."

Another statement based on what? More campfire chatter based on pure emotion and a desire to dis the people, who for whatever reason you woke up with today, who are attempting to do something other than have houses built on the property.

Under the plan you obviously know little about, The flora and fauna will be preserved by a conservation easement being placed on the property. A conservation easemant that would limit any redevelopment on the property to the footprints of development that the Boy Scouts created....nothing more.

Do you have a Plan LH? What is your Plan?

Lisabob writes:

"If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to celebrate, mind you."

Celebration may be possible but it certainly is too early to buy any champagne concerning the Owasippe property.

Some time ago the good people of the State of Michigan were wise enough to establish, through a vote of the people, the Michigan Natural Recources Trust Fund. This is a fund that collects the royalties paid for the extraction of oil, gas and such resources in Michigan.

MNRTF funds can only be used for the purchase of property and for improvements to property with natural resource value in Michigan.

It is possible that MNRTF funds may be available to finance a portion of the effort to preserve the Owasippe property. I'm not saying that this is a fact, only that it has been brought up as a possible part of an overall plan.

So while there is a budget problem with the State of Michigan the people of this State were forward thinking about what to do with money earned from the extraction of non-renewal resources. That fund just awarded $33-million for 2007. A rather nice amount of money going into areas all across the State.

LH writes:

"I do apologize Jim, if your going to dis a man you should get his name right."

*********

Yes, it is rather important to get names correct.

I guess how important it is for you to dis someone is a judgement call that only you can make. Take the best shots you can man. I can take it.

*********

LH further writes:

"Late 70's early 80's Blue Lake Township rezoned the property from what ever it was to a higher rate. Chicago Area Council requested for years to have the zoning changed BLT refused."

and also wrote:

"I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need."

***********

This is an interesting spin that you choose to put on these events. I feel it's important to put forth more complete information.

It would appear that you have mixed property assesment and zoning in a convenient but inaccurate manner. It sounds good for your simple statement but is inaccurate in fact.

In the late '70's and early '80's there was an increase of the property tax assesment on the Owasippe property. There was not a zoning change as you claim.

The increase of assesment was because of the recently established value of same zoned property.... property directly adjacent to the CAC owned property. Same zoning = same tax assesment. This is a common and legal method for assesors to determine the value of property.

What you have refused to include in your statements is that the values used to make the tax assesments were created by the CAC sale of the like zoned property. In essence, the CAC sold property for X,XXX.00 dollar value but did not want to pay the taxes when their remaining same zoned property was appraised at the sale price they had received.

***********

LH goes on:

"I was angry when Blue Lake Township originally rezoned the property and started taxing the camp at resort rates but I thought I understood the need."

What the hack are "resort rates'? Is this your opinion or fact? The fact is that the tax assesments were based on the values of the CAC property established by the completed sale of same zoned CAC property. NONE of that property was zoned nor taxed at whatever you choose to call "resort rates".

Your further comments are based on false or fabricated evidence.

eolesen writes:

"To keep all of Owasippe tax exempt, the land could be subdivided into 400 acre parcels, with individual councils and other not-for-profits owning them.

If CAC is unable to sell it as residential property, I don't know if they'll still go forward with selling it. If they do, someone should be lobbying the state to just buy it as a wildlife refuge..."

*********

There are many alternatives to the sale of the property by the CAC for residential development. However, the Chicago Scouts have decided to invest what I believe is close to $1-million of their money to insist that they have the right to have residential development on the land they own.

Take a look at www.ooec.org to see the alternative to residential development that seems to have garnered support from many people.

Gold Winger writes:

"A group of people have banded together to try to save this camp from becoming yet another place for people to park their BMWs and SUVs. CAC and the potential saviours are battling it out as we speak."

This is not totally correct. The so called "potential saviours" and the CAC are NOT battling. It is correct to say that a group of people have banded together to prevent what is describe AND to make it possible for a Scout summer camp to operate under the Owasippe banner as it has for almost 100 years.

The so called battle is between the township and the CAC. They are the parties in court over a zoning issue.

The people who want to see the property evolve into a long term viable Scout summer camp/green space/conference center/enviornment research center/FFA/ 4-H/Campfire/church group facility have been attempting to discourage the continuation of the legal actions.

There already is a YMCA camp, Music Camp, a "special needs" camp as well as another Council's BSA camp all adjacent to the Owasippe property. One of the opportunities seen by the people is to create the same type of synergy in the area that a "restaurant row", "shopping mall", "resort region", Orlando or Las Vegas benefit from.

It is very difficult for the "summer camp" tradition of many youth organizations to continue because of various economic realities. Owasippe happens to be located in an area that believes there are great logic in establishing a welcoming enviornment for summer camp/outdoor education facilities. There is strong evidence that this is a "growth industry" which seems to be the opposite view of the BSA.

The people also have encouraged that a dialogue be established between the CAC, Township, OOEC and financial sources to accomplish the envisioned evolution.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify the situation as well as your endorsement of the overall concept.

LH -

First of all I don't know who you address as Joe.

Then, I want to repeat something from two years ago, "I believe that the Owasippe Outdoor Education Center was created as an effort to find a single solution that satisfies all interested parties. Fundimental to the OOEC effort is that the property remain zoned FR-I, not rezoned to allow residential development.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see the Council recind the sale and go forth with a long-range redevelopment plan for the Owasippe property. It is something that could have been done decades ago."

Nothing I have said has changed over the past two years, the OOEC still has the same mission and goals. That can be checked out on the OOEC web site www.ooec.org.

I suggest that it is you who has changed position and opinion. More power to you, such is anyone's right.

**************

Also you write: "If after all the years and all the many scouters that have passed thru Blue Lake Township OWASIPPE means only "property that THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL NOT THE MEMBERS OF CHICAGO AREA COUNCIL want to built houses on then again I hope Stone wins."

The members of the Chicago Area Council have allowed their Council to sell all of the Council's camping properties. So, your desire has been met.

There happens to be many Scouters and people from across West Michigan and beyond who feel the preservation of the Owasippe property so that Scout camping can continue there is of great importance. It happens also to be part of that feeling that additional uses of the property (other than for residential development)are necessary for the property to be viable in the long term.

********

The current court action has nothing to do with the OOEC. It has everything to do with the Chicago Council attempting to have the zoning of the property changed. The Council is the plaintiff and the township is the defendent.

*********

The State of Michigan allows not-for-profits to hold 400 acres of land tax free. This is almost double the size of the typical youth camp across the country. Beyond the 400 acres the property is taxed no matter what not-for-profit owns it.

The specific case of Owasippe is that there are almost 4,800 acres owned and the 4,400 acres is taxed as camp "support land". The actual tax paid is about $14.00 an acre as "support land".

I think that is a rather kind treatment for about 7.5 square miles of property featuring about 9.5 miles of waterfront.

**************

You write: "I was actually happy when BLT rezoned this time as I wanted the Camp to remain but if it's just a GOVERNANCE ISSUE over what an owner can do with their property then I think I'll start telling all the CAC members to stop sending money to the BLT defense fund and the OOEC fund and spend it on the boys instead. Blue Lake Township deserves as much support from US in their fight as as they show us in ours."

The fact is that CAC members have already sanctioned the spending of about $1,000,000.00 to contest the zoning of the Owasippe property and the meter is still running.

Before the local Circuit Court has even issued a final ruling in the case (final arguments aren't even due until next week)the current CAC Board has filed an appeal with the Michigan Appeals Court. Ka-ching, more of that property sale and FOS money to fight for the right to build house on Owasippe.

So LH, your wish is being fulfilled.

**************

I find it sad that so much money is being spent on a legal contest when it could be better spent on a Scouting program. But it is the fiduciary responsibility of the CAC to use it's resources wisely to advance their mission.

LH says:

"I wish this court case was about saving the camp but it is not."

***************

Some Chicago Area Council members attempted to go the course of "saving the camp". They failed to do so from within the Council.

The local community, as well as some from the Chicago Area Council, worked together to preserve the Owasippe property intact with the goal of having the property available for controlled use by Scouts, other youth and the public.

##########################

LH further states:

"The fight to preserve the "camp" found little support from the locals when it was determined that associating the Blue Lake Township issues with the governance issues concerning the sale of the camp under any circumstances could jeopardize the "zoning issue" case."

***********

The fight to preserve the "camp" was lost by the members of the Chicago Area Council within the Council. Goverance issues of the Chicago Area Council were totally in the hands of the members of the Council.

Few residents of Blue Lake Township are members of the Chicago Council. The residents of the township have no standing in the issues of the Chicago Area Council, a private organization. Blue Lake Township had no dog in the fight over governance of the Chicago Council.

##############

LH says, "The signs are still up "Save Owasippe" but if you read this entire thread you'll see that "Owasippe" no longer means what it used to mean."

******

Ummmmm. It used to mean to save the Boy Scout owned property from sale for residential development. The folks who organized the "Save Owasippe" campaign NEVER have changed that meaning.

###############

LH further states: "As has been stated this is about property value and zoning, the loss of our camp(s) is secondary if that."

*********

Very true. However, one side wants to build houses and the other side would like to have Scout camping and other outdoor activities on the property. It is the members of the Chicago Council who want the houses built.

#############

LH writes: "As long as there are no homes built Blue Lake Township and it's supporters will be happy, the scouts of CAC will be without a camp but hey priorities are priorities."

**************

Blue Lake Township is on record as welcoming and supporting the presence of the Chicago Council camp in the township as well as the other four cvamps in the township. Who is it that wants to build the homes and not have a camp?

Friday was the final day of testimony in the matter of the Chicago Area Council vs. Blue Lake Township in the 14th Circuit Court of Michigan. CAC is the Plaintiff.

The trial was reduced from around nine issues down to two legal points by Judge William Marietti. The judge dismissed the other Plaintiff claims.

The issues in the trial were: 1) Was the zoning of "Forest Recreational - Institutional" for the Owasippe property (one of five camps so zoned in the township)arbitrary and cappricious? and 2) Was such zoning by the township a "taking" of the value of the property?

Closing statements will be submitted in writing by 12/21/07. The judgement will follow.

There is much that can be written about specific testimony that was given. I am sure there will be plenty of comment about the costs incurred.

I attended all but one day of the nine days of trial. When all is said and done this trial comes down to a single property owner disputing a local zoning ordinance.

I have no idea what the legal costs have been for the Chicago Council to contest this. The township has asked for, and received, assistance from other units of government to cover their legal costs.

The Council already has filed a complaint in Grand Rapids MI Federal Court to carry forth the issues under Federal law.

Thanks for the info on the Report. I'll pass it on.

There's plenty of testimony concerning the value of Summer Camps and year-round outdoor facilities that has been submitted to the court in order to document that value of the land.

It's also been submitted that the world of Summer Camps and outdoor facilities is large and growing. Scouting is an extemely small player in the universe of Summer Camps and the shrinking of camp land owned by Councils is contrary to the overall trend of camps and all.

Chicago Council is selling the property and this entire trial is centered on the value of the property and a zoning issue. Nothing more.

I cetainly can not speak for Long Term but I will speak for myself.

Above I have given the reasons I feel it is important for the Owasippe property, and a program of Scout camping and summer staff experience, be continued in that location further into the 21nd Century.

While the politics in Chicago Council seems to burden the comments I made in opposition to my reasoning....so be it.

I'm all for Owasippe being a place for BSA members (AND MANY MORE YOUTH) to available in the future.

I have no economic or other vested interest in the Owasippe property as has been suggested by Long Haul. I, my son and daughter, and thousands of others (both BSA and non-BSA) youth have experienced life molding experiences at Owasippe.

It is my PERSONAL desire to have many generations to come have the same experience.

There are many hundreds of thousands of acres of residential building sites already in West Michigan. I simply believe that there is a place for preserving almost 5,000 acres for the purpose of having a youth camping experience in the same area.

Long Haul -

Before you make further statements I suggest that you review the testimony over the past two weeks, in the 14th Circuit Court of Michigan, of the Chicago SE and President concerning leasing facilities for summer camping.

Long Haul.....What business is it of yours concerning what I own and where I own it?

OOEC's position and information is at www.ooec.org. I'll let everyone read for themselves what's there rather than give dignity to arbitrary claims.

I do not live in Blue Lake Township as Long Haul states.

I'm going to leave comment about the governance issues and election to someone closer to what transpired in Chicago earlier this year. All I really know is that a new Board and all was elected and took their seats in March.

****

Concerning the overall concerns and background that "eolesen" brought up:

The "Save Owasippe" campaign is very wide across the region and was most evidence of the supported of the campaign begins at the residences adjacent to the Owasippe property.

The Chicago Council has voted to sell the Owasippe property and the legal actions are all centered around zoning issues. There is no concerted effort to stop the sale of Owasippe...the controversy is about the building of houses or keeping it as camp property, probably under an owner who supports the concept of a youth camp facility on hte property.

*****

About the comment about distance from Chicago I have to make the following observations from over the last 96 years:

In the early part of the 1900's the Chicago Scouts boarded Lake Michigan Steamers and traveled to Owasippe from Chicago.

In the mid-1900's the Chicago Scouts rode Pere Marquette Railroad trains from Chicago to Owasippe.

Around the 1960's and 70's the Chicago Scouts rode in school bus caravans to Owasippe.

Currently Chicago Scouts travel to Owasippe mostly by private vehicle.

Considering the improvements in interstate travel time over almost 100 years I have to question if the distance is really the issue or if it is a matter of a change of society.

If you can't get to it fast.....is it really worth anything??????