Hanaski

I've always had a problem with the 11 Skills as they are laid out in the current JLTC syllabus. So tear away.

I am genuinely worried about what will come of the new JLTC. So much widespread attention has been directed toward Woodbadge; a program that so much as borrows a theme from Woodbadge will suffer. But who's to know until it's released? I would enjoy nothing more than to visit and observe one of the test camps this summer.

Yes, troop JLTs are important. But ask around--there are plenty of Scoutmasters who run an optimal weekend JLT and would be happy to share their secrets. If national doesn't release a troop JLT (and I wouldn't hold your breath), it's not the end of the world.

Never in my life have I read such a brash, arguably offensive, generalized attack on Scouting programs.

Dan, whomever or whatever you 'see' when you speak of this generic scoutmaster, it sounds like you have been accused of being a mill of some form or another in the past. I think it is in appropriate to bring that type of vindictive conscious flow to the forums, especially in response to a legitimate concern about a (not your) troop that operates somewhere near the twilight zone.

You make subtle claims that the generic scoutmaster, which from your post can only be taken to mean one that uses terms like "Eagle mill" to describe what his troop is not, wears uniform knots he has not earned and has not attended leadership training. Your ramblings continue to include fair weather outing practices, attendance percentages, and--of all things--the Scoutmaster's usual attire--what for!?

After dutch chose to expose his and his wife's personal lives, you ignore that even with the best intentions not everyone has the time or energy to execute the hostile takeover you proclaim as a viable solution. I honestly wonder what kind of work ethic you instill in your Scouts.

Your generalizations, assumptions and conclusions are out of line. They have no place here. You can be assured that I would *never* send a scout to your troop, simply based on your need to attack the anonymous abyss of bad Scouting to build up your own program. And never is a long time.

Eagledad,

I absolutely agree. With 4 years' experience in our council JLTC, the leadership qualities of the boys that have come through the program are wildly varied. I'd hate to see our program and those elsewhere being relied on as a form of leadership 101 damage control.

The current national JLTC curriculum, available in most council outlets, is largely unacceptable in many respects. I have huge hopes for the revision, and hope for the pilot's success. I too am very interested to hear about it. I truly believe leadership is the foundation of building up our youth, and the new JLTC is long overdue.

To reintroduce points brought up in the Politics/Issues forum, I disagree with a one-to-one matching of Woodbadge and JLTC. Youth and adults have greatly varying needs *and* differing responsibilities in the scouting unit. Yes, they should both be able to speak the same language, but this should not involve hours and hours of classtime for 13-15 year olds. Learning is doing, and complete and unmistakable application of skills taught during the JLTC is necessary for anything to be taken home.

Eagledad, kudos to your comments.

Scout retention is a huge issue, and it always has been. I too have seen the lack of crossover from packs to troops.

Personally, I would like to see a Youth Training category (to counter the Woodbadge category) to best facilitate JLTC and other youth-related training discussion.

It seems that JLTC has been experimented with at the local level, but I feel change would be most helpful at national, to serve the needs of JLTC coordinators who, understandably, don't have the time or energy to turn their program upside-down.

On the same token, pushing much of the marketing burden on local councils is somewhat extreme. The national council has far more personnel and financial resources than many regional councils, large and small. Asking each council to produce compelling promotional campaigns with no national support wastes time and energy by duplicating efforts at the local level, and in the long run would remain costly and ineffective.

To the statement that "all politics is local," indeed you are correct. Unlike many on this forum (apologies for the generalization), my region is populated by a liberal majority, and so far national arguments--the collection "Supporting Values"--have not satisfied their questions. Forcing a strapped council to deal with regional politics is futile.

I'd like to conclude my aggregate reply with a comment on Learning for Life. Although an absolutely excellent program for K-12 students, it is purely classroom based and is not traditional Scouting. Numbers of participants are fantastic, but it is misleading to include them in BSA's total youth report--6+ million. See http://www.learning-for-life.org/lfl/index.html for more information.

Dan, the question you ask is a perfect example of the corner BSA has backed itself into. Rather than being the non-issue it used to be, it is now the choice to *actively* allow or *actively* disallow. Aside from turning back time to rewrite their mistakes, national needs to take careful steps to realign its partnerships with United Way and other contributors, while maintaining the strong relationship with the various religious communities that hold Scouting so high.

PR extends way beyond sexual preference. An informed media is a happy media; lack of response to public outcry (from any side of any issue) releases the dogs.

BSA sure isn't alive and well on the grand scale.

The NYT article posted by gsmom is on the money. While many youth programs continue to thrive, BSA falls short. There has existed such a practice as horrible parenting for generations. If you choose to say that the BSA's handling of recent political issues doesn't affect unaware youth, you are mistaken. Since when has the focus of BSA centered on adults? Every decision, good and bad, made at the national level directly affects the youth membership of today and tomorrow.

Unfortunately, simply relying on the foundation of BSA and the ideals for which it was formed is not enough. Have you visited a troop meeting or summer camp recently? My troop's registration is less than a third of what it has been, and summer camp attendance even less. My troop and council alike are hurting for funds. Have you attended a council JLT program and evaluated its results? The national JLTC curriculum is poorly written, lacks application, exhibits classroom overkill, and worst yet, is modeled after a leadership program specifically targeted to adults. If a university education is so great, why send kids through secondary schools?

BSA is lacking with public relations, effective marketing, training standards critical to the success of our youth, and is leaving leaders and parents to carry on anonymous arguments that take us nowhere if national refuses to move forward.