gregharewood

Hi,

I have a Scout here in my British troop who needs to make some international contact in the next week or so in order to make his Chief Scout Gold award - the top award in the Scout section here. I promised to sort him out with a contact in a foreign troop, but all my previous contacts have failed me. Can anyone help? Our original plan was to have him organize a patrol to patrol online gaming session - FPS or Steam or MineCraft or something with voice chat to get to know each other. But frankly, at this stage I can accept just having some conversations to explore options with some foreign Scouts before his end of year deadline. If he can make and actual activity out of if early in the new year, that's a bonus.

SO, if you have any Scouts, ideally from about 12-16 years old (Lucas is 14) who would be interested in a conversation leading to online activities, please let me know. I'd be delighted to let Lucas do the leg work and sift through too MANY contacts even if they don't work out. I'm sure one of your guys can use this for advancement too.

You can find me on greg@histon-scouts.org.uk or http://www.facebook.com/gregharewood or (for reference gregharewood site:escouts.org.uk ), or phone 011 44 7973 795871 (on London time)

Thanks for any help!!!

Greg Harewood

Mr Boyce, you are being ignorant. That's not meant as a personal attack. But you are wilfully ignoring the statistical evidence and other academic and scientific opinion, some of which has been mentioned in this discussion. You also talk about redefining homosexuality - you are even managing to misunderstand the word. Homo means same in Latin - i.e. same sex. There is not, nor has there ever been in the definition any implication of paedophilia, nor any sense of 'perversion'. I suspect you are associating the two simply because you consider them both to be immoral or different to what 'people like you' do.

This may all seem normal to you, and you may feel comfortable saying these things because they are opinions common among people you spend time with, in your local community, even your faith community or otherwise. But they have no basis in scientific fact, and come across as prejudice and hate to the many good people who are homosexual. I find it very uncomfortable to think of fellow Scouts as harbouring such prejudice towards fellow Scouts.

@OldGrayEagle

I find it a minority of Brits that have negative views of Americans.

Please don't take anything I've said negatively. It's hardly surprising that it can be hard to convince some Americans that there is anything worth seeing beyond the border. The benefits of seeing how the rest of the world live can seem a little intangible when in most material (and meteorological) ways at least it is going to appear inferior.

But there ARE benefits, and that is really my point - that Scouting should be pushing those things. B-P very clearly expressed a desire that boys get to appreciate other cultures and have international experience, and that in an ideal world, such communication and understanding could contribute to world peace. It IS a core original ideal of Scouting, and - in this I am being a little forthright - you ARE failing in Scouting if you fail to understand this and implement it where possible.

Chug,

I don't mean to say that Europeans travel for the right reasons, but they DO travel and they do acquire a wider experience as a result, albeit as an accidental side effect. :-)

I think it's futile to argue over whether America is insular or not - simply because to do so ignores the vast variation in culture and people across the country. The wife and I are looking to move back to NorCal at some point - we loved it when I worked there for three years and can't think of anywhere we're rather live. Our friends there were well-traveled, mostly because everyone in the area is very globally minded and I worked for an international company. But I also met some very insular locals. And that insularity can be more pronouced in other States. Only 27% of Americans have passports (June 2008), and it far fewer only a decade ago when you could get to Canada and Mexico on a driving license.

That said, Scouting is supposed to be global. B-P was very clear on this. We can't send every Scout to an international jamboree, but we could all use more small scale exchanges and communication. It's not really about reading each other's books. Every UK Scout (10-14) has to complete the Global Challenge as 1/8th of his or her Chief Scout Gold award. Every Explorer Scout (14-18) should be given the opportunity of an international expedition, and must complete one including foreign service to attain their Explorer Belt. It's the hardest part of our programme to organize. It's considered worth it because of the educational value to the individual and the ongoing positive effect on our Scouting community here.

Is the BSA more or less insular than the country it serves?

WOSM - Bought and paid for by LDS.

And that's why in so many discussions about inclusiveness in UK Scout forums, I end up advocating that the Scout Association leave WOSM. It would be a sad day, but we've moved forwards.

BSA seems to have taken a surprisingly different route to a great many other Scout Associations on so many issues. When we modernized a few years ago, I think we did look around at the best of what other countries did. How much do you guys compare yourselves critically to Scouts elsewhere?

Barry,

I shouldn't have stated 1 in 10 as fact, though I had thought it was most accurate. When I was kid, people quoted 1 in 30 as fact. Are you saying 1 in 3 with some gay experience or tendency? Seems a little high, though I agree that many more than 1 in 10 have a moment, or experiment.

Tolerance. Ahha. Yes, I can see your point, when you relate the word to "tolerate", meaning shut up and deal with it without liking it. But I put it to you that progression to using "acceptance" is not a done deal, and language can follow a different path in different places. Sometimes words need replacing when they get used negatively. The N word is much more offensive in the US than it is here - but it is only Latin for black, and stigma came from the attitude of those using the word. Back to tolerance - we both agree that we should be using a word that implies not judging, accepting of differences recognition of common ground, and tolerance of the differences that are difficult for us. I put it to you that "acceptance" isn't actually that much better a word. It can agreeing to something without really wanting to. Have you ever signed the Fedex guy's pad for a damaged package, or accepted fault for an auto accident just because it was cheaper to do so? The word "acceptance" doesn't necessarily mean a good attitude! In any case, the word "tolerance" as used in the UK has no negative aspects. We might see a campaign soon - hard to tell. Meh, it's language, It differs! These are US forums, I'm so guest, so I'll try to translate!

Demographics: We simply never differed from the law. Homosexuality was legalized in the late 60's I think, and we accepted gay Scout leaders from that point, as far as I am aware. In any case, discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation has been illegal for a long time (80's maybe), including (I think) for private clubs like ours. So Scouts changing would have been a non-issue as it coincided with society at large changing. And that would also have made it hard to measure, because any similar alternatives would have changed at the same time.

I think Europe IS a different culture. I think it's a real shame that the BSA couldn't move on this 10 years ago before it started getting bad press and losing properties and low rental deals on federal properties and so on.

Moosetracker,

If you can separate out the gay child without it being conspicuous and without the child having any sense that they were being discriminated against, then there is no down side to it. Having RULES about it would in itself be divisive, but subtle action on an individual basis by a Scout Leader who knows his or her kids can be positive.

"I believe I would be fine using a tent situation where 8 people bunk together as a full patrol, and you are not segregating male from female, then I would not see a reason to segregate the openly gay people either.. But we have tents of two, and currently do segregate male from female, and Adults from youth. With those rules and with two men tents, I don't see why you would not seperate openly gay also. Just seems like a logical flow of how we operate..."

Mostly for the same reason that you don't separate out the black kids ("African Americans") and make them sleep separately.

While I can see your point of view, it is still based in some idea that you can completely supervise everything your Scouts do and make sure that nothing bad happens by controlling them rather than respecting them.

When considering this point, it is more important to recognize that the gay child will be insecure and minority, not some kind of 3rd, 4th of 5th gender. Treat more like a racial or cultural minority than a sexual problem. Gayness is not something you can measure absolutely in a 12 year old, nor is it definitive. The child might in fact be confused and turn out to be hetero, bisexual, transgender, or whatever else. How many groups would you like to separate into?

It makes no sense to legislate for separation. Be sensitive in individual cases and make sure he is with a friend, or at least another kid who simply isn't bothered by it.

And then trust them. If you're only trying to control them, it might as well be school.

Hi Eamon,

A bunch of interesting observations - I want to pick up on this one...

"I have had some fairly in depth conversations with guys in prison who have been convicted of molesting little boys.

They claim they are not gay. "

One of the most poisonous issue with homosexuality in the US does seem to be that people still think there is some correlation between being gay and being a paedophile. I'm sure it seems like a natural conclusion to someone who thinks they are both equally disgusting and sinful, but it has no basis in fact and is incredibly corrosive. There seems to be active disinformation about this from some fundies.

Prisoners are no more or less gay than anyone else. Either they're bored, they're being raped, or they are raping others as an expression of power, like an alpha dog might. It IS possible that fewer will ADMIT to being gay than the normal average. They certainly don't become gay because of something in the air in prison. If they enjoy it, they probably always had it in them.

Thank goodness more kids ARE growing up feeling relaxed and tolerant about this. I know that my Scouts couldn't care less about which friends or leaders are gay. We had a (young) leader 2 years ago here who came out to the troop during a related discussion. He said (18 months afterwards) how liberating it was and to find how accepting they were.

Nice to meet you, moosetracker!

I was a counselor in '91, and it wasn't a BSA camp... it was a 10-week regular Summer camp, mostly Jewish. http://www.pineforestcamp.com/

I can see how some men or boys might be uncomfortable in a tent with other gay men or boys, but I haven't come across it myself. Most people seem to deal with it fine, and the kids will usually take their cue from the attitudes of the adults around them. I can't say whether it's a cultural difference that just has be deal with or whether you smooth it over with education.

Homophobic is a funny word. It's not prejudice per se... it refers to the fear that many people have of being around gay people. And while you will have people with religious beliefs about homosexual actions being sinful, I think you can still do a lot to educate about it being normal and nothing to be scared of. So I'm certainly not accusing YOU of anything - but I think fear is the big problem that needs fixing, I think. They're not out to get us!

I am SO sorry to hear that Patrol Camping is now canceled. You carry on doing the best you can, but if I was in your position, I would feel like packing up and quitting. I had two unsupervised patrol camps run by 13 year olds last year, and one this year by a 12 year old girl. There were all awesome. Most troops here don't do it, especially as most relied on the 15 year old PL's we had a few years ago. But you CAN still do it, the rules allow it, and it is still the single most memorable experience in Scouting for those who can do it.

I haven't posted here before, but I HAVE chatted with US Scouters before.... http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/browse_thread/thread/98be4967f085436f/c6be3e428f3924a4?lnk=gst&q=ukc#c6be3e428f3924a4 all the same stuff comes around and around, doesn't it? :-)

Some of these discussions seem paranoid and old-fashioned.... but to be completely fair, they are the same sort of discussions that I guess we went through before going co-ed in the 90's :-)

I can't tell you that you're wrong. I can't tell you that the British model would work for you, because there are other genuine differences....

- We are less militaristic and more pastoral, often with smaller troops, so hopefully we know our individuals better and who will get on with whom

- Hazing has never been a big problem at most Clubs, schools or institutions.

- We have a different age split - Scouts starts are 10 and stops at 14, kids move to Explorer Scouts (14-18). This actually reflects BP's "Senior Scout" split, except that Scouts and Senior Scouts in BP's time came together as one troop on a regular basis. We don't. Explorers is separate.

- Our Scouts traditionally camp in patrol tents, sleeping 6-8.

- Our society is less aggressively competitive in many ways. (Except for Soccer!)

In any case, here's how it works. We have stopped look at male/female at all when it comes to leader rules etc.. We don't require female leaders is there are girls on camp or vice versa. We don't distinguish between gay or straight. We simply have guidelines on privacy.

When I was a counselor one year at Pine Forest Camp, PA (which was awesome by the way) I slept in a bunk with 12 boys. That would be banned in The (UK) Scout Association. Kids get privacy from adults.

Privacy amongst young people is however on a slightly more best-effort basis. You do your damndest to make sure that they are all comfortable and have the privacy that they need. Some care, some don't. I've had more issues with boys amongst other boys that were embarrassed about their bodies than I've had with the girls in my troop. The only girls I've had join are ones who are very practical and muck in anyway. When asked, any preference regarding having their own space had more to do with the boys being slobs than with privacy.

Best practice guidelines say two things

- Separate young people boy/girl where possible, always respect privacy

- Safety is more important than privacy.

The rulebook (POR) does not codify this - which is handy, because it needs flexibility sometimes. I've heard of international jamboree situations where almost opposite rules apply!

In practise in Scouts, if the one girl in a patrol was the PL, I'd stick her in the same tent, otherwise she wouldn't be able to keep things running smoothly etc.. Not all my peer Scouters in the UK would agree, but it's allowed. If possible, a divider would be made available, but if not, somewhere else to get changed (toilet block, behind clump of trees) would suffice so long as all (boys AND girls) were happy.

I do send Scout age kids on unsupervised camps and hikes. You have to trust them.

At Explorer level, from 14, they camp without me more than with me. It would be a complete waste of time trying to separate them. I try to teach respect and have them understand their responsibilities

----

Which brings me to the issue of homosexuality.

10% of kids will grow up gay. Half of those will at least suspect by the time they are 13. Most won't tell you - certainly in the BSA, which is actively antagonist to gay Scouts. Stop pretending you can separate out every kid or adult who would look lustfully at someone else's body. You can't. You deal with actions, not with thoughts. In practical terms, you teach respect, and you try to provide privacy for any individuals who want it. That's not really about mixed tents... we all know you can change in sleeping bags. But it does mean that you might not want to force kids through shared showers.

You can't guess who's going to be gay. Stop trying. Don't try to 'fix' the gay kid. There's nothing wrong with him. Fix the ones who might be offended by giving them privacy.

It was always a fallacy to think you could send all the boys into the showers together and think that none of them were looking lustfully at each other. The percentage of men who would turn out gay was always underestimated in the past because it was in their interests not to admit to it. And if you can get to a stage where the stigma of being gay is gone, then you will find people far less traumatised by think they were being glanced at in the showers too.

- Teach your Scouts tolerance, respect, health and safety

- Then trust them.

:-)

Greg H

1st Histon SL (SM), Cambridge, UK