Greg78

Greetings All,

I see renewed interest in this topic.

Here's an update.

We formed a new troop.

About half the boys from the old troop came with us.

We have been fundraising like crazy for equipment. We have been pretty successful at it.

We have a very active committee and we are determined to make it work.

Our boys are learning their positions and responsibilities. We have held JLT with them all and are providing scholarships to 2 for the Council's weeklong JLT.

All of this years Webelos from the previous CO joined our troop.

We have two more committee members and one (maybe two more) ASM's.

All the boys have earned their own money or most of their cost for camp this summer.

Since our forming we have been to three Camporees, A klondike, a polar bear and one other camp.

I hear there are about 6 boys left in the other troop.

I wasn't able to attend it but the old troop and CO put on the spring camporee and though there were a few bumps it went OK.

So that's where we stand at this point. Our CO has been wonderfully supportive of us.

Thanks for all your help guys! It was a real learning experience for me and PNScouter.

Greg

Hi everyone,

Working at a lone outpost for a year while in the military I came up with this one:

What's really important is not what comes before you - It's what you leave behind!

Thanks for all the sayings - so true!

Hey Bob,

You said:

You say you are trained in the program yet you talk about parents and scouts asking the SM to step down. Where in the BSA program did you learn that? Whoever gave you the idea that the boys choose the Scoutmaster, or the parents for that matter?

There are no published instructions for removing a scoutmaster. There is no BSA training for dealing with inadequate leaders. The COR and COIH are supposed to form a selection committee and recruit a suitable leader. Which if selected properly would be that exceptional person who is looked up to and respected by the youth they are charged with leading. If this had happened from the beginning we wouldnt be in the position we are now. We learned as we went. We acted on behalf of the boys. They took the initiative and asked the SM to step down because they want a leader they can look up to. When the SM didnt do anything we parents stepped in because we are invested with the program and want to see it succeed to its fullest potential. It seemed more than logical to us that the CO would work with the parents and boys to improve the quality of their program. They are losing many scouts to this leader.

Bob White said:

You have yet to tell us one thing the scoutmaster has done wrong but you have shared plenty of things that you and others have erred on.

As for what she did wrong What more do you need to know? The SM has worked against forming a committee, doesnt use the patrol method, leads with a stick, and the boys obviously dont respect the SM? If they did they never would have asked her to step down.

Heres a great link of what LBP thinks a scoutmaster should be.

http://usscouts.org/clipart/scoutdoc/bpaids/bpaidssm.doc

This SM was not delivering anything close to this style and we had leaders that would.

Sure we erred, we were learning as we went along. We acted in the best interests of our troop and our boys. As I stated before hindsight is 20-20. We may have erred with the process and should have included others at different times but the facts are the facts and the situation is the situation that started this ball rolling.

Bob White said:

The Institution Head of the charter organization has given you their decision. They are supporting the scoutmaster. You need to do the same or leave. No one is being benefited by those opposing the legitimate authority of the IH and COR.

Yes, we have our decision and as I said the decision wasnt about the boys, it was directed at the adults involved. The vote was for the adults to work together and admonishing the process we took that brought us to this point. Also about truth, justice, and the American way. (who would vote against that!) It still doesnt deal with the core issues.

I will accept their desire.

We will support the scoutmaster and the scouts while we are still involved with the troop. And we will work with the COR and CO board to get them more involved with their scout troop. (Most of the board didn't even know the Scout Troop belonged to them and that they were responsible for the troop's leadership)

**************************************************

I would like to share an observation about the forums here and the comment someone made about how it seems every week someone is on here looking to off a CO or SM or someone else in a position of leadership.

How come the embattled leadership never comes to this forum? I have yet to see a post entitled Lynch Mob or Help, no ones following me or How do I save my BSA program from parents that want to take it over

Heres my guess These embattled leaders do not seek outside advice, do not look for guidance from others, and dont communicate very well otherwise. Within this isolation they create for themselves, decide that their way is the only way and are unwilling to open discussion on their point of view.

True Leaders always welcome open discussion and are willing to change their ideas based on what they hear/learn from others. When you are open, honest and stay focused on the core issues you dont become embattled, you improve!

We should probably spin this to a new discussion if anyone wants to comment.

Bob -

Sorry I seem to contridict myself.

When I refer to the committee early on it was just us ASM's.

When I refer to the committee from 4/9 on it was with the new committee members we signed up from our group of parents that wanted a change.

(Yes, we tried to load up the committee to have more votes than the SM's family members) It didn't seem right for us to do that so we brought as many parents as we could to the meeting and had them all decide.

As I stated before - we never really had a proper committee, there has never been a chairman. There was on paper but the guy that was signed up was the SM's father (I've never met the guy) and no one did the job becuase we never had committee meetings.

We pursued this because scouts are leaving the program (not just the ones in the troop now) and they all pointed to the SM as the reason.

She has been asked 4 times to step down. Twice by the boys and twice by the parents. Previous to our troop she was asked to leave another troop.

She never made any attempt to address this with the boys, the parents, or the Club. She never asked any of us to help figure out a way to improve her style so the boys would look up to her.

She never attempted to form a committee. We have done that and she has worked to limit our input by questioning the validity of the new members I recruited and our ability to make decisions about the program. We asked her to take a different leadership role in the troop and she dismissed that.

I would also point out that her every response has been excuse after excuse about why she didn't have a committee, why she wasn't using the patrol method, and dismissive, attacking comments to the boys when presented with why they are unhappy with her leadership.

Does this sound like someone who is trying to work together? This was the CO Board's stated goal. For us to work together. PNScounter and myself have made the effort as well as the boys and other parents.

The SM has not recruited any boys but her son into the troop.

The current CO Board did not choose the scoutmaster - It was very obvious the board followed the current president who apparently has formed a personal dislike for me.

The decision was made about the adults involved - not the boys - which is the whole reason I have been involved with this CR** in the first place. For the boys.

We are not interested in continuing any dissension either. We wanted to deal with this issue at the lowest level possible to prevent just that. We have strong leaders in other parents and have continued to run the program.

We will likely take those leaders and go elsewhere since it is evident the CO isn't interested in us running the program.

This is how strongly I believe in the patrol method - The CO should be looking at the troop as it's own patrol - we are the closest to the wins and loses and best able to make decisions to align with the Scouting program. We are the ones that are trained in the program. Of course the SM is too - and look where we are with that!

Our older boys decided to stick with the troop until summer camp and then we'll split. (split...what an awful thing for this group:-(

Greetings FScouter!

Please keep in mind there was no committee and the SM was the link to the CO. Most of the time period the CO board was not exactly interested in their Scout Program. Now there is a new CO board (president) that wants to take care of things.

The SM always painted a rosy picture for the COR.

And of course hind sight is 20-20. We could have and should have.

The SM should have done something after the first set of boys asked her to step down. SM has never followed up with the boys that have left.

Doing exit interviews just makes sense to make improvements to your program. Or the committee could have done this - oh wait, there is no committee.

The Board (COIH) voted to keep the current SM as Scoutmaster.

I came away from the vote feeling admonished for taking up the cause for our boys and our parents, that the decision was based on process and desires of the adults instead of the boys wish for a leader that they can look up to.

This is the worst outcome for this group of boys that wanted to take control of their troop. We will lose our momentum. The troop will be paralyzed until we come up with a new plan. Probably to start another troop...

It saddens me that a CO wouldn't work with the majority of parents of their older Scouts. Does the CO know better than the boys own parents?

Should I just quit? I heard alot of extolling on leadership and working together. They didn't understand that we had been there and done that already...

The CO called a meeting Tuesday night. It got Ugly. Mind you he has only had dealings with the troop through the SM up to this point.

He totally disregarded the Parents recommendation to have the SM step down. He began his meeting by saying we should all work together and assist the SM to the correct path. A noble thought but we passed that point 18 months ago.

The CO set him self up like we were the ignorant masses and only through his leadership could we be saved from ourselves.

He stated he wanted to take a few months to have more adult meetings and then begin bringing the boys into the meetings.(????)

So, as it became apparent to the committee members and parents that this guy wasn't going to follow the parents recommendations the meeting turned into another SM bashing session. (while she was there) It was ugly. I tried many times to keep our message simple. "The boys want to quit, we need to have a change" That's the bottom line. I have to admit I really lost my cool with this guy. As I saw it the CO has two choices - Leave the SM in and destroy the troop, Or remove the SM and go with the new unified majority of parents and leadership. (sorry I worded that on which way it should go!)

A few of you have asked where the DE has been through all this - As all the DE's are, he or a close representative has been to every meeting since we started these proceedings. The Council has bent over backwards in providing whatever resources, guidance, and advice to help us through this process. The support I get from the Scout Professionals is what saves me from throwing up my hands and leaving.

We included the DE from the first meeting. The CO was hurt that we didn't include him but he has never shown an interest in getting involved before. I think he got involved at the appropriate time though. After the parents and committee came together and made their recommendations to the CO, he only had to look at the various outcomes and the recommendations presented to him to come to a decision.

OK so the meeting dragged on and on as the CO would (long windedly) come up with an idea and the parents would struggle to get him back on track. As we are all parents we began leaving the meeting to take care of our responsibilities. The DE and Unit commissioner both stayed and talked with the CO and explained to him what the troop wants and what he needs to do to get there.

So instead of getting a resolution we are now waiting for the COR to take the issue to the CO Board. We are going ahead with our program schedule to maintain the troops momentum during this crisis. We will wait, but not for long. In the meantime we are throwing out some feelers in case we need to change CO's.

I want to thank you for all your comments and support.

NeilLup - ASM vs. Adv Chair, I have stepped back from ASM duties while I am Adv Chair.

I'll update until we have this issue resolved. Thank you all

Update:

We had a meeting last night with over 30 parents representing 18 of our 23 scouts. Every one had a chance to stand up and relate their experience and in the end we sent a letter of recommendation to the CO to have the current SM stand down and a nomination of a new scoutmaster.

The committee and ASM's are meeting with the CO tonight.

Eamonn, Dude you have a ton of experience in Scouts and International at that! I commend you for devoting your life to Scouting! It is a noble way to give back to your community.

As for your reply - we are at the committee action stage now. We have talked with the SM about her behaviour and she has summarily dismissed all charges.

Our two eagle scouts are not involved with the troop because of the SM.

We have already lost three boys and a ASM that is running the training for the District Roundtable. All because of this SM.

We are not trying to make our own rules here. We have struggled with each step. No one we have been in contact with has offered to tell us the rules for removing the SM. I've learned it from the forums on the website. We will have a meeting with the committee and the CO and go from there.

The SM has put her needs ahead of the boys. If you ever did that you would lose your seat too.

Scouting can't exist without the parents, and certianly will not exist without the boys.

Thank you for your time eamonn, Time is the only thing we have that's really worth anything. I thank you for sharing yours with me.

KoreaScouter! from Oahu! Man, we're on the next plane!

Your description of egos was right on!

Oh but wait. After the ASM asked that she stepped down we offered the CC position. Promptly turned down. That is when i saw the feathers ruffle up and new her ego would never let her take a lessor position. Lessor? CC is lessor? I guess so in some peoples eyes...

Davej745

you said:

"How can Scoutmaster slide thru training to become a Scoutmaster and have been with these boys all this time prior to becoming Scoutmaster not be discovered as the individual driving Scouts out of the troop? Was she hired out of the blue? "

If the CO only has one person raise their hand and volunteer, that's who you go with. when she took over the troop there were 4 boys and one was her's. The boys stayed in it 'cuz they like each other and us parents won't let them quit.

So the boys rose up and did the only thing they could do - they threaten to quit and complain about the SM. Good for them!

Thanks guy's! Our next meeting on this issue is Monday. You all have really helped me focus the issue.

Eamonn,

The bottom line here is that the Troop will be losing the older scouts if something isn't done about SM.

Is your solution to let the SM continue in this leadership role and drive the older scouts out of the troop?

I am an adult scouter because I had a blast being a Boy Scout! I feel an obligation to honor the time adults spent with me by providing the same or better experience than I had!

If you are an SM and you have scouts leaving the troop and hear of scouts threatening to quit (and its about you) then you have to step back and evaluate your methods. Maybe even step down for the good of the troop. Scouting is a fun program. If you can't deliver the fun then take another position. No one has to take it personally (though most do), sometimes the planets just don't line up correctly to let the magic happen.

OldGrayEagle

Thank you for your input

We will go as far as we can with the committee and approach the CO with the results.

As a committee we will have done what we think is right for the boys and leave it up to the CO.

I have asked the advice of roundtable members. and they wish us luck and encouragement, They seem to understand the SM we are dealing with. We have also approached our DE and he's seems to want to be the impartial observer.

I understand your view that it may be the boys don't like being harped on. That the SM is only providing proper direction. I thought this too when I heard my boy complain. I let him complain for 2 years. When we approached the SM, the response wasn't "What can I do to prevent the boys from leaving the troop". It was about who could she point blame for the failure of her style.

I have been involved on the Adult side of BSA leadership for 10 years. I have never heard of a SM that was so disliked by the boys in the troop.

Hi and Welcome to the forum.

++ Thank You ++

It seems that things have changed a bit from when you first posted. Or maybe I just read it wrong?

When I first read this it seemed that the PLC was trying to get rid of the Scoutmaster. Now it seems that there is a group of adults meddling in the back ground and behind all of this. The fact that they have tried to involve the PLC in their shenanigans is more shame on them.

++Sorry, Heres more to clarify: ASM hears 5 boys want to quit, calls other ASM's, Finds out more kids complain after EVERY campout. ASM's agree we have to do something. SPL takes initiative to find out which boys would like to see SM step down. SM is approached to step down and begins character assination of Eagle scouts, ASM's, SPL, and PLC.++

Like it or not your Scoutmaster has been selected by the Charter Organization and they and only they can ask her to step down. Of course if there has been a serious violation of BSA rules and policy the Scout Exec. could ask her to step down. Much the same can be said for the troop committee, this group has also been selected and approved by the charter organization and just because a few adults in the troop may be unhappy or dissatisfied is no real reason to start replacing them.

++ AAAhhhh, what a wonderful place to have a utopian CO and council. We have lots of wonderful people to share the scouting experience with. The one thing that I have learned to count on in my 10 years of Scouting from council is "let's wait and see what happens" and I have always had the experience of an absentee CO. This SM was picked as the only one that stepped up at the time to take control of the troop.++

To my mind the adults in the troop need to take a long hard look at the Scout Oath and Law. Paying special attention to Loyal and Trusted.

++The Scout Oath and Law is a fine thing - It's the reason I am in Scouts. We are operating from the premise that the Scout Program is supposed to be fun! These boys are only in it for a short time. If any adult leader is making boys quit, then it's time for a change! We do live in a democracy you know.++

Using your example of a business:

First I have never been involved with a business where the workers fire the boss.

Second if I found that the people who were meant to be serving the Company in a mid management capacity, were stirring things up and causing disharmony, I would take whatever steps needed to thank them for their past services. I would of course follow the correct procedure.

++The workers aren't firing the Boss, The Troop committee is. (the board is letting the CEO go)

The SM's job is to instill the values of scouting and to help the troop grow - the troop isn't growing if the senior boys are leaving the troop.++

I appreciate your comments. It helps to cement my resolve and encourage our committee to take action.

Trail Pounder,

It sounds like you have some problems of your own.

This is about an SM that is cuasing the boys who provide the senior leadership to want to leave scouts. This is the second group of senior leaders that have had problems with here.

If we are to run a Boy-lead organization, we have to have the older boys to lead.

If the older boys that want to lead all walk out it destroys the quality of the troop.

To assume that any one that steps up to a leadership position (i.e. the SM) should be allowed to continue when the SM's style causes kids and other quality adult leaders to quit, shows there is something wrong and requires that there be a change in leadership.

Use a business as an example. If you hired a manager that caused all the best people you hire to quit, what would be the action you have to take?

Sorry Greg, but to say she runs by the book but doesn't let the scouts lead is contradictory and doesn't tell us anything. As the ASM what have you seen? Give us examples please.

++Well, She cites the Patrol Method as she brow beats the SPL into doing what she wants. But as I said in an earlier post we have a couple ASM's that don't see a problem with her leadership style. (Maybe they treat their kids the same way)

The majority of our Scouts are 1st class and under. The SPL is going on 14. We have two Eagle Scouts that are around sometimes.

I'm sorry, Bob - I am not one to bismirch other people. The facts are that the older boys that will be the future leadership of the troop are threatening to walk out. All of their complaints involve this SM. The solution to this problem must include her stepping down from her leadership role.

I think we came up with a solution. She loaded up the committee with her relatives when she began. We need to recruit parents of the scouts that need their voice heard. As a committee they need to vote on who the SM is. We'll invite the CO to the committee meeting and go from there.++

Has anyone talked to this lady about this?

++We have now. It finally came to light how she was effecting a number of boys. We should have done somethng the first time it came up but the couple of ASM's at the time were to green. She was running the show and weren't all that up with the program++

Why was she asked to leave her last Troop?

++ Her quote - "I have boobies", also her son suffers turetts(sp)and may have contributed++

Has the CO be apprised of the situation?

++Will be today, at least from our side. I believe she has been in touch with the CO®(IH) about our attempting a coup++

I commend the Scouts for having the courage to do what they have done to this point.

++ME TOO! This SM has done that much. She has been able to steel the boys into taking on leadership roles you wouldn't expect from 13-14 year olds++

A few questions:

What is your role in the troop?

++ ASM and Adv chair++

What lead scouts to believe they had the authority to select or fire adult volunteers.

++I think the SPL was tryng to find out how the other scouts felt about the SM. ++

New or old what is the COR's decision.

++Not sure, non-committal at this point++

What exactly has the SM done to upset the scouts so much.

++She's dismissive, doesn't relate to the boys well, says she runs by the book, boys say if its not her way, its her way++

Hi Everyone,

Weve got ourselves into a sticky leadership issue. We have a SM who was asked to leave another troop 3 years ago. She took control of the current troop at that time. 18 months ago at the SPL annual meeting she was asked by the SPL and ASPL to step down. The committee was taken by surprise but was not in the position to change leadership at the time. (we were a pretty small group then)

Well, its happened again. About two weeks ago a parent asked an ASM why 5 boys were quitting. The ASM talked with some other parents and found out a lot of boys were all complaining about the SM after coming home from campouts.

The SPL (a new one) decided to ask all the older boys in the troop to sign a petition asking the SM to step down. (He has been told its a boy run troop and by god hes gonna run it!)

The SM is fighting it. Some of the parents think she should step down because the boys are threatening to quit and complain about her behavior at the campouts. Some parents think she should stay because she is very active with the troop.

We do have leadership that is trained and ready to step up.

The CO rep has just changed and not quite on board with us yet.

I would really like to hear your input.