flyingember

I was in a troop during college for a few years as an adult that held their first ever oa elections that year. I think it was 2004. The troop was began in 1924 and is a heavy mic-o-say troop. It took a new scoutmaster who was willing to experiment and follow the scouting program to the letter at the same time to build a small but high quality troop.

Anyways, they called the district oa advisor to arrange for one. the district is a bit unorganized in that manner. The guy came alone and ran the election. This struck everyone as very odd. I was one of two oa members, I received it in a different troop and one adult from district the year before. We questioned the process instantly since no youth performed the election or was even present.

The scoutmaster worked with the lodge and had the election striked. A team of youth were brought up by a different adult to run the election. More scouts were elected this time though not all attended the ordeal. The only area that struck me as odd is that the scoutmaster basically planted a vote for as many as possible direction in the kids heads between elections, but it was a ton better than the first one either way.

Elections can be screwy at times.

Thanks for linking my site! I'm working on an update to it.

The Okaw Valley council (mannaseh) has reported active oa membership has more than doubled since beginning the tribe in 2001. they state as such on the council webpage.

seems like it's doing very well for the council.

do note they spell it differently. mannaseh.

The current chief scout executive is a member of mic-o-say as were the previous three.

I doubt the other programs will ever go away.

how many members does firecrafter have? active members? new members each year?

how many councils is it in? how many officially?

does the chief scout executive become a member?

(http://www.mic-o-say.org/Williams_Roy.cfm)

oh, and the website does not work in firefox. you can't click on any links

What is a lightweight stove?

(I'm keeping it open-ended on purpose)

ah, that's the camp that has a non-oa honor program somewhat related to mic-o-say.

sounds like a good camp from what i've read

talk to this troop if you want to know camps north of you. they attend bartle every year

http://www.troop840.org/

they're based out of coppell, tx(This message has been edited by flyingember)

same camp since 1930. H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation.

well, one of our leaders did kind of helped found the camp in 1930 (he owned the land), so you can see where that leads.

We do have one of the few camps to return 50% of scouts from their first to fifth years. Heck, I bet we had more scouts over 13 one year than under.

I can't tell you when the newsletter started but I have an interesting paper vs digital comparison for a large troop.

In 1996 my mom tookover the newsletter from the scoutmaster.

She just gave it up this past summer to another parent. (no more kids in the troop)

Now, the idea of a newsletter is a good idea. I run the website and didn't feel that it was the optimal way to run pertient news for years. Currently it's more a "recent events" site than anything.

Anyways, about a year ago we started to send the newsletter via email. Due to the 150+ mailed newsletters and the time it took to get them mailed, two weeks wasn't uncommon for the newsletter to arrive. The classic "the news is out of date issue."

The email list has come to have 90% of the troop on it. For those families it's the only way they receive the newsletter.

We discovered that only about half the troop bothers to read the newsletter eventually and have been tweaking how we send it via email.

In the end, the newsletter has become the way to have a printed calendar, upcoming events list, get out a "congrats" to the infrequent-attending families, etc. The web and email list is for instant messages and for photo albums.

yes, if you keep the weight down.

but I suggest seperating into multiple items in plastic tubs with handles. I've seen wood used. Though sturdy, they were heavy even for me, let alone a first year, and we're talking a smaller wooden box (held kitchen and stove only)

I would avoid cardboard as it doesn't promote the outdoor code.

Basically I think the following works:

One box for the cooking supplies. This may or may not include a propane stove depending on troop style. Number them and assign one number to each patrol each campout.

One box for dry goods (small)

One cooler for cold food (small)

This way you're keeping food away from the long-term storage area. There's nothing like finding something spilled all over your kitchen a month later.

No personal gear, such as silverware, should be in the kitchen. This will reinforce the seperation of patrol and personal gear per the scout book.

nearly every campout I've driven too I've never been reimbursed, but then again, I've never paid for food in four years that I know of (the scout's food comes from a food fund they pay into), nor for any other fees (camping fees come from fundraising).

so I never really complain.

Though I don't drive much anyways, we have more than enough drivers and seats so my not driving is better on us, less cars to mess with. And I get to talk with the scouts the whole way down as I try to ride in a different car each time.

Bartle runs 8500+ scouts each summer. the Kansas City paper quoted a quarter million having gone through the camp historically. Troops from 6-7 states attend camp there. Numbers don't lie. (oh, it's at capacity every session every summer in October)

I'd put Geiger, up near St Joeseph, MO on the list.

I've heard good things about mack morris in western tennessee.

I've seen troops from northern georgia to western missouri goto it.

bartle, geiger, arrowhead, and s-bar-f are all major camps. these are the four big council camps in missouri, and all sessions usually fill fast.

H Roe Bartle here again. in the northern end of the ozarks in central missouri.

I went twice, I'm 22.

the first time I went 2/3 of the campers were over the age of 14. yes, 2/3 were older scouts. trouble keeping older scouts? not a chance. the second time we were younger, but that's because it was all small troops. 25 troops were in camp, and we still had 1/3-1/2 over 4th year.

in our troop we had 20 leaders post high school but not yet with their own kids. our 4th year+ group was half of the troop down with us, and we took 15 first years.

I should note this isn't the local oa camp. I went out to an oa ceremony nights during one of our other camps boy scout sessions. total campers in the ceremony: 150. there were more arrowman not at the ceremony than at it since they all appeared for the campwide crackerbarrel.

total mic-o-say members at each ceremony- easily 800-900. we're beyond standing room and have seating for over 700. this includes another 130 not in the seats being inducted one of the nights. 1000 members is easy for us to get down each session for ceremonies. repeat 6 times for active membership. these are all scouts in their 5th-9th year returning to camp. on our staff 21 is still nowhere near senior. 25 is common.

to say that we draw older scouts back is an understatement.

results?

we had 209 eagles listed in the august council newsletter. that's a unique list from the last one, which I think was June. that figures to over 1000 eagles yearly for the council. (national numbers are 46,000 for 2003)

the campstaff is 80% eagle scouts.

isn't a key point of lifesaving about not necessarily swimming? reach-throw-row- and only then if that fails go?

scouting is about being physically fit, not about swimming.

more kids bike more regularly than go swimming. more kids walk places than go swim. how many adults exercise by swimming compared to those that jog or bike at the gym? scouting is about life skills, not swimming skills. the ability to be fit.

oh, and those that think swimming is hard, hiking is often harder for many scouts. I've seen kids pass swimming easier than easily go on a five mile hike. swimming is a skill for safety moreso than its a skill for fitness

Keep him!

First item will be to make sure he's up on youth protection training

This will be your key leader at camp and on campouts. Let him wander among the scouts and help them. Let him joke around and play games.

Around here the strongest troop keep their 18-20something group around. They're usually all eagles and active in honor camping. These leaders are your living examples of what the 4th year scout should be.

Strange.

If camo was disallowed we'd lose some great camping clothing. My Warrensburg troop is 10 miles from a major military base (Whiteman which has the B-2 bomber) and camos are everywhere.

Plus, even Walmart sells camo pants now.

I just picked up some new Marine Camos through a friend and it's great clothing, I use the jacket the most. I now want pockets on my arms on all my jackets.

purcelce- I've had an email conversation with a Mannaseh founder. He was also a founder of the tribe of golden eagle. They basically mixed bartle and geiger together to rescue a council.

I'd like to know how the program is doing and if it's affecting membership. kevin@flyingember.com

Adrianvs-

Oh, and Silver Tomahawk is no longer OA. They split off sometime spring 2003. The council merged back around 1997 (I have a council strip for them at the 97 jamboree) the lodge merged and much discontent was in place. they resplit shortly after.

Now the lodge merged again due to national oa only sending one charter. It's black hawk lodge 67 I believe. Silver Tomahawk still exists from my emailings with a member who lives in arkansas and goes there as he can, but the council website has gone downhill and no info is up.

It's basically MOS now. the founder was Earl Ring back in the 50s/60s (a mos member), who also went on to found a tribe in western colorado (now mic-o-say lodge 541, which is pure oa)

In case you were wondering how it worked being MOS-OA, goto the link below.

Oh, and the chief scout executive is an honorary chief of Kansas City MOS. The last one, Jere Ratcliff, was a council exec and so was too. National is watching MOS like a hawk I'm sure, as it expands across the midwest. There's over 170 counties covered by a MOS program in six states. That's equal in space to most of New England if my math is correct. If MOS spreads into the areas of the country which is weak on scouting it'll catch like wildfire (North West Georgia Council, I'm looking at you, a scout shouldn't move and go through three troops in 6 months and only go camping once)

My detailed writeup.

http://www.flyingember.com/mic.html

I've had the guy who wroteup most of the stuff at usscouts.org comment on my writeup.

I'll clarify #2

I noticed that the scouts who camp the most advance the fastest. How do you work with this? A scout who attends three campouts should have the same opportunities to advance as one who attends 10.

The problem I've noticed is that with a hecktic campout schedule (which one isn't) you can't always get a compass course or work on totin-chip stuff or go on a hike or those longer requirements every single time. If the scout attends the three wrong campouts they might miss out on the only requirements they need. (I blame rain on cutting one first year hike, by rain, I mean 36 hours of it)

Ok, I'm 22 and have been on camp staff in the past and am very active still. (I also have a very minor case of aspergers which makes me quirky and focused)

How active? I went to camp twice and attended 13 monthly campouts in 2003. This is with two different troops.

I am finishing up running a first year program with my troop at school. The troop has ~30 scouts, 8 of them first years. A ninth quit due to school problems. All 8 should be first class by the time the next webelos are in and the scout rank. This isn't bad considering there was no book signoff from the middle of June to the middle of August while I was on break or during any of the other times I was gone. I still think the program needs improving, specifically in options.

I need some insight.

I'm pulling ideas from all over the place. I read everything.

1. Do you think troop meetings should be spent as a whole or should the first years be split up to do their own thing? If split up, how much and how often? I'm split on this idea.

2. How do you handle a scout whom does not attend campouts very often? Is this where time at meetings is important.

At camp.

First, I should make it clear that this is a 10 day-9 night camp. It's one of the longest in the country. We have more time than most. It's also a camp which fills up in 2 hours of the camp draw. (by full, I mean there's been more people than tents in the past)

My troop at home has the first year program down pat for camp. Everything gets done per an established program. I've generally copied this for my own program since I like it. They don't have the campout program down as much. It's too chaotic for my liking.

I'm slowly working on a writeup for first year programs year round and at camp since this coming summer I'll be the primary person running the first years around with my schhol troop and likely won't be back down with them after that. I don't want them to lose the ideas I have floating around in my head. I'm thinking of staying in this town after school, but haven't decided yet. At this point I'm leaning towards going home for the summer and moving back into town next fall.

Back to camp.

I'm a fan of the need free time as a first year philosophy, but to a limit.

3. How many badges should a first year return with? My current program has the first years beating most of the scouts on badge numbers.

4. Is there anything that is necessary to do at camp? I'm leaning towards items like constitutional rights and flag ceremony at least.

Back to rambling.

This is the direction I plan on spending in scouting. I've figured out how to work with the new scouts. I had one older scout figure me out in this regard as I'm not perfect in any regards. (I was helping with a group of older scouts only and keeping up with them on their "bantering" and gained a lot of their respect). It's all about giving someone the attitude and actions you expect from them. It's also about letting them see that you're human too.

On a related note I had to learn the second class knots three times. I still can't teach all of them perfectly. I learned the sheep shank from a 5th year recently.

Most of it comes from something one of my friends remarked upon. I last saw him at camp 2000, right after we graduated from HS (he's an eagle scout too). He joined the marines shortly after and I got together with him for the first time this past december. He remarked that I seemed more confident at one point. I realised later that he was right. This is the key point of a first year program moreso than any skills I have decided. Work in the confidence and you'll have done more than anything. A good leader doesn't always have the right answer, but the confidence to make an answer.(This message has been edited by flyingember)

I know, I emailed him and he replied.

You -will- do more than required. Find me at the camporee, you -will- be leading a group of first years around.

Happy scouting!

grin

As a brotherhood member in Tamegonit, no really, I'm in 374 in Liberty and 400 in Warrensburg,

I'm also a Shaman, you know what that is. I'll assume you're at least a Foxman or Brave too.

let me make a suggestion.

I would volunteer for a more advanced role on the ceremony team, if you're timid, like a lot of scouts are even at your age, I would pick Elangomat. Runner might be good if you can do it dual with another position.

I just might see you at the NS Dist camporee if you go this year. I'll likely be wandering around with a digital camera and a floppy Bartle hat.

kevin @ flyingember . com

www.374liberty.org

If you sit around, I will personally come over and use my paint to berate you. I've met Mark Gotzon. Sachem Sunlit Valley. Watch me.

http://www.micosay.org/

mother tribe link. Has more history.

OldGreyEagle: why was it started? to keep scouts active.

Let's put it this way. Do you know who H Roe Bartle is? He turned down being the exec at the largest council in the nation at the time for Mic-O-Say. His scouting program was the best program for the 20's. He is internationally famous.

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/9426/lonebear.html

Thanks for the numbers NJCubScouter

Lets see. assuming OA were as popular as micosay here.

In one of my troops we have about 30 scouts and 8 leaders active.

all 8 leaders would be wearing flaps, and 10-15 of the boys. 8 of those scouts are 1st years.

In my other we have 90 scouts, maybe 20-30 really active. 40-50 at meetings. 10 eagles a year. Maybe 30 leaders at meetings, 15 at campouts.

A ton of the leaders would have gotten the flap as a youth, we'd have a line to get in as an adult under the numbers rules. Say 20 of them.

We'd have 50 scouts with the flap, 40 if you assume a popularity contest.

Does that put it in perspecitive? I was conservative on the numbers too.

yeah, mic-o-say is regional, although having over 75,000 members in the two big groups in 75 years, we're spread all over the place. It's also slowly expanding as per my personal webpage linked. Anyone in the midwest has heard of the program.

our members are well known at Philmont I know specifically.

acco40: it wasn't that so much as there's officially no support for programs other than OA, and this, in my opinion, shows otherwise. Oh, and try Kansas City for regional. St Joe is small by comparison.

NJCubScouter: how many active members does the local OA have? You're in the center of the program regionally so I'm wondering. I'm not trying to show off in any way, but we have over 8,000 active members. Each ceremony sees in excess of 1500 people attending them. At the 16 year level there's 200+, at 18, 65 or so. 12 times a summer.

How active is your troop in honor camping? Do you like the local OA lodge or do you feel that it needs improvement?

I ask this because of a bit of irony. Nationally, all but two councils have an OA lodges (One in MO, one in CA). Over a dozen have a second honor program running at the camp (I don't have exact numbers). The councils with a second program are the stronger OA lodges that I've seen. (My opinion only)

While OA is pushed heavily to be by the rules and to be nationally spread, the Chief Scout Exec was made an Honorary Chieftan in the Tribe of Mic-O-Say this very summer. If you think this is rare, the previous chief scout exec was a chief of the Tribe too, and an assistant is also a former chief.

http://www.mic-o-say.org/MicOSay/Williams_Roy.html

What do you think of honor camping in the US when nationally the program is one thing, and the leadership is supporting something which is not officially supported?

http://www.flyingember.com/index.php?topgroupid=1&groupid=7

This is my research into just one program.

http://374.flyingember.com

completely rebuilt from the ground up. The design is very complex and very clean.