EagleScouter2010

Is there a PC way to get leaders to only teach one boy and not every boy they can possibly get their hands on? Because I am seeing leaders asked (by other leaders) to teach a skill to boys one night... even though it is a semi annual thing going over the same lessons. I'm not trying to bash these leaders. I just think we owe it to the boys who joined this program to give them the program and not an adult-run boy's club. As a young ASM, I feel as if my opinion is not taken as seriously since I don't have "experience." But the experienced ones enjoy teaching the boys a little too much. I messed up 4-5 years ago when I joined this troop as a boy. I was told I couldn't do the leading because I was too old and the younger ones should have a chance...little did I know this was probably a method of keeping me "occupied" with other tasks so I would steer clear of changing this "good" program. The chance I messed up on is not passing my knowledge on as a boy to other boys, or I wouldn't be in the situation I am now as a leader. Sure I can still teach them like I should've back then, but it's not the same coming from someone who doesn't goof off with the rest of them. I'm actually proud as my SPL (he's sort of the troop PL right now, work in progress) took most of the boys aside at a meeting and taught lashings. Though, my pride probably won't recover after hearing him say "lashings suck, you just have to know this to advance." Oh the irony...I finally see them doing what they should be doing and I'm dead wrong. But on the bright side....those first year scouts tied some pretty impressive lashings. Though there are plenty of problems, there's always that spark you see in a boy's eye after he learns from an older boy and is able to "master" a skill and can be proud of it. This is how it should always be. It reminds me why I stuck around this program and troop instead of "Eagle-ing out." I'm glad to hear so many of you having success with this boy-to-boy tradition of passing down scout skills and responsibilities. I know my troop will get there at some point, but it is very encouraging and uplifting to know it all really works.

I'll jump in here too. I agree with MattR's post above. There is just not enough training material available. For the boys, the responsibility lies with the older boys, but when starting a new troop with no experienced boys (or even just moving from adult to boy led, like I'm attempting), the expectations have to start from adults. Where can we find out how much or how long, or even what we are supposed to teach the boys to ensure their knowledge is sufficient before we "let go" and set them off "on their own" ??? In terms of POR, I've only ever seen one boy, QM, learn his job by himself. He is working on Eagle and has been QM for years since he is the only one who WANTS to do it, other than his little brother who plans to take over the "family position" lol... But seriously, this boy learned to do the job HIMSELF and the only thing he could do more of is finding out who had equipment such as tents when pieces break or rip. Dishonest scouts tend to think it is better to hide the damage... I would think the other boys would keep damage from happening by "harassing" anyone who stabs holes in tents for bugs to climb in....

The first thing I did last troop election was give each new boy leader a responsibilities sheet for his POR. Other than physically stepping in myself and showing them how to do it, I can't seem to figure out how to get the concept of taking notes, checking in and out MB books, taking pictures at camp, etc. through their heads. And especially the Historian, I fail to understand what training is required for a boy who owns a camera to bring it with him and take pictures.

I'm torn between the laziness/ignorant concept mostly because of seemingly simple tasks like that. If it truly is laziness, it is self-explanatory. Though if ignorance and lack of motivation is the case, my goal sounds like I need to have the troop irritate each other to death until they all do their simple tasks. It just seems like there's no way to have scouts "make" each other do things without there being some form of bullying involved. If they only plan to use positive reinforcement, then, well, they could be waiting a long time.

I hope I don't sound angry/upset, but it is very frustrating to have a goal that requires me to upset parents, scouts, and leaders before things start happening. The fun thing about ignorance, though, is that we all have it in some way or another...

*side note: Is there a "Quick Start Training: A Guide to Shutting Your Mouth as an Inactive Parent" because that (hopefully with a more PC title) would eliminate half of my worries on reaching a level where boys are motivated, productive, and most importantly, having fun. While this is mostly a joke, it really would be nice to have something that I could use to talk to these parents and reassure them that I "know" what I'm doing, and am here to help their sons learn and empower each other.

I'm just having difficulty being the "mediator" between the boys and other leaders because of the distrust. I lost a little respect for the older boys, but I wouldn't be here if I honestly thought this was hopeless. I'm not the kind of person who is willing to stand around watching things go wrong. The boys have already told me what they want to happen (boy led because the adults have them in a choke-hold) and I have been slowly pushing for it. COR really isn't that big of a problem because I know for a fact that the troop was 100% boy led 10-15 years ago when he was still around. He says he wants that too, but I don't know if he realizes how far away the troop has come from there. Anyway, I will admit I thought I was at the far extreme of "pushing the boys off a cliff" and letting them learn from all their mistakes, but I really am very concerned about the patrols they want. That being said, I know you all are right because I believe it too, that it is THEIR decision on how that happens and not mine. I was going about this in a way where I let them have some responsibility at a time, but I guess it really is in their benefit to drop whatever we've been doing to hold them back. I only got the boys to tell me they had a problem with the program a couple months back, and before that I wouldn't have even admitted there was an issue. Ignorance is bliss I guess. So, my next step is to sit down with 2 PL's and SPL (one PL doesn't want any of this, so I won't force him), the CC, COR, and SM. I need to have those 3 adults clearly hear the problem coming from the boys and I need to have the boys lay out a plan of what we should expect of them. My question then is: how far is okay at this point to push them toward their goals. Part of me says leave it to them, but the part of me that was trained in non-BSA youth leadership says I need to encourage them and push them (and yes I answered my own question there when I wrote "non-BSA," so you're all welcome for the ink I saved you).

@SM bob: right now, the COR is really the SPL in disguise. I know he'd like to see the boys step up, but I think he feels that the quality of program shouldn't suffer and he should handle things if boys can't. We just had several leaders leave the start of the year for...reasons. I am trying to get those who are still here to make a change because the ones who left were mostly all of the spoon feeders especially on trips. SM and I want to see a cooking weekend trip to an open local BSA camp ground. I guess I can combine ideas and have Eagle plan that along with TLT on the same weekend since both activities work well together.

As for the complaining parents, I just worry that they are ruining their son's chance in scouting and if the boy likes the program, it isn't fair to take it away because parent is upset.

@jblake47 Not armed, but one has bitten my arm when I wasn't looking.... his parents chewed him out later...haha puns. I can do all I can to convince SM to let them pick patrols, but ultimately it is not my decision to make, nor his for that matter I guess the only thing left for me to physically do is enjoy my comfy chair and watch, grinding my teeth and praying the boys learn quickly.

I'm not sure if I misled again. The "dork" and "cool" names are just what PL and SPL always say. In reality, the "cool" patrol is just the 12 oldest scouts OR the young ones they "approve" of. The "dork" patrol is actual a completely random group of boys that got put together because they were not wanted by the other boys. The group is mostly problem boys, though the PL I mentioned who is the only one wanting a leadership position is in this group (I want him to be a PL). He is not the sharpest tool in the shed and is lacking in terms of common sense, but he is the ONLY boy who has actually come to me with a decent plan for a trip (even though he didn't follow through). My problem was that for the overall safety and health of the group, the other leaders and I don't think certain boys should be in the same patrol due to constant fighting.... That is my dilemma.

Additionally, I would have a difficult time convincing other leaders to go along with what the boys want in terms of patrols. SM already approved what I did, unfortunately, and I am not sure I can convince either him or COR to allow other options...not that I won't still try. I'm just being pessimistic so I can have a back-up plan if I'm right. I just hope I'm completely wrong and get knocked off my feet with surprise.

@Twocubdad I guess you're right about having to follow COR, I never thought about that before. I guess my next meeting objective is to sit down with those 3 and make sure we all walk away on the same page. I think CC is fine whichever direction we choose, though she wants her son to be in a disciplined program. SM and I both want boy led, so that leaves 2-3 opinions that may or may not clash.

@qwaze We would like to be able to have adult meetings to discuss things like this but the boys "need" us in with them. Normally, meetings end up being me trying to get PL's to organize things while other boys run amuck. The older boys make sure 30 out of 90 minutes is game time though...

Sorry about that post. Formatting error and I'm going to have to contact admin... Or I'll just post from a computer that isn't possessed.

@ Rick_in_CA I am 100% in favor of this method and have been talking to SM about learning through failure. He is not ready for that step and I think I can agree with him. We had several boys call home at summer camp and parents called SM withing minutes to scream frustrations when neither he nor I knew what was going on. One boy's mother literally screamed over the phone because her son's sleeping bag got damp...he had told her it was soaked...we immediately calmed her down and patched his tent... As much as I would love to see them learn from their mistakes, most of our parents are inactive and are ready to call us and complain. We even hear things from our district commissioner because parents complain about how we handle things. (though leader/parents like the PL's mother I mentioned earlier completely agree with SM and me). The difficult situation we are in is mostly because we are nearly afraid to lose the boys we do have. Adult help is thin too with 2-3 positions per person. In near future, these methods would help the boys who need it, but if we lose membership and pack support, I don't see many boys moving to another troop. I'm in this for all of them. *also, since they are new at this, I told them I would look over their plans and point out (through questioning) any major problems I see, like them wanting to go canoeing in December...hopefully they never think of that...) @scoutergipper Unfortunately we are not in a position to be recruiting now as we barely have the adult man-power to run the committee and SM/ASM positions. Also, we have tried recruiting adult leadership extensively but even out of our batch of 10 boys last year, we only got a new CC. My concern is exactly what you said that we may indeed be losing the troop. We had SM, a committee member mother, and me at Summer Camp with 20 boys. SM and I will not go if we have that ratio again (the mother was mothering her child too, so it was more like 2:19). I'm not going into the details of camp, but SM and I bonded a lot more from the stress.... I am trying to get the leaders trained before I start the boys, and am trying to get a TLT together within a month after I take SM specific in October. It just amazes me that we had 4 former SM in the troop last year and not a single one admits troop is adult led. @hedgehog Bringing in parents is my last resort and I only did it with the one PL so far because I know how much he wants Eagle and I want him to earn it. I came from extremely adult led troops to the point where I only found out about patrol method after my Eagle. I feel that I didn't deserve to earn it when I did, and I know how bad of a feeling it was for me, though I know I can't predict he would feel the same. I can say I understand the boys' goals and frustrations, but I have no clue why they won't do anything about it. I have been talking to CC and SM and COR (former SM) for months trying to back us off of a choke hold on the program. I sat down with the PLC and they told me everything they were willing to share (some of it I couldn't repeat to Committee, like no women in scouting -_-). Mainly, I really am concerned that the boys can't think for themselves. They are GREAT at coming up with ideas, but have no follow-through whatsoever. In a way, you are right that I am trying to "make" them do what I want. I want them to plan and enjoy activities that THEY like, but they just do not understand how. I had them come to me and say they are planning a canoe trip in 15 days and I did everything I could to not laugh. That was about the 4th trip they "planned" 2 weeks in advance and they just don't remember anything we tell them or can't read what we write down. I gave PLC a list of what they need (trip, place, menu, transportation, etc.) and they only ever say what they want to do. I ask questions and they even got a little further on a camping trip, but just dropped the idea and lost their notes. *as a side, I may have been unclear, but I only told them that I personally would not have anything to do with their advancement, though I followed my comments to them by saying there is nothing I can physically do to stop the process. Back to your post. I actually went in to sit at a Committee meeting 2 months ago because I completely agreed with how the boys felt, but the CC had physical documented proof of the committee trying help PLC. I really just don't know if the boys are that clueless that they forgot about the help they were given already, or if they are actually lying to my face again. I confronted SPL but he won't admit either way. I know their goals, but do not understand why they complain, get what they ask for, then complain they didn't get it. Honestly, I thought bringing PL's mother in on the loop would motivate PL, but, again, I am lost. @jblake47 1. We tried that, but it ended up more like "cool" kids assigning "dork" kids to a patrol and having one 6 member patrol and one 12+ They wouldn't split so I handed SPL a sheet and told them if they can't decide then we are doing mixed. They didn't decide...and turned my bluff into an actual thing.... I sometimes think they are trying to make me feel terrible. 2&3 I am trying to get Eagle to do this, I really hope he can do it for me, I have high expectations and faith in him. He is very mature and responsible and has come through many times in the past. 4 I'm disappointed in myself for not thinking of having Eagle do this. THANK YOU! Could you link me to a GBB training, I've never actually seen one done or heard of other troops holding it. My biggest problem here will be convincing people that we need to have faith in the boys. After what I mentioned to others in this post, most leaders/parents/other adults just do not trust them. All but one PLC member (SM's 12yr old who dreams of being QM -_- The one boy I think could handle leading right now doesn't want to do it...I'm going to have to give him a little nudge and encouragement to lead, but I'm not sure he'll bite and I can't force it). lied to SM and me at Summer Camp, so the distrust sadly is justified. Would it be bad of me to print your post and let Eagle read it ??? As long as he doesn't read anything I write... @everyone I can't explain the entire troop dynamic or situation in a short post, so I'll try to correct any confusion or add more as it becomes necessary. Overall, the main problems seem to be mother/leader, SM, and I hitting a rock wall with parental concern so that poor little Johnny doesn't have to suffer the horror that is eating a slightly burnt pancake... Thanks for all of your ideas, I am familiar (mostly) with patrol method, I just need creative solutions (TLT is coming) to motivating boys and getting parental trust. Most of what I read was helpful though, so thank you again. EagleScouter2010

@Hedgehog: Part of the problem here is that we are trying to back off as much as possible but they will not take the opportunity. When asked what they want to do, they have a whole list "apparently." I told them to come up with a plan for the trip and the response from SPL was "I already showed you everything and you did nothing." I later found out that SPL thought another younger PL had given me plans they apparently made. I told SPL I have nothing and have seen nothing. Hopefully these plans really do exist, because this would not be the first time they have flat out lied about their work to several leaders including me. I completely understand and agree with the method you mentioned above, however, I'm wondering how much of it is them guessing and forgetting 5 minutes later (it does work wonders when a boy asks me something along the lines of "how does a compass work." I would say go to your PL or SPL, but I honestly don't think they would be of any help right now... I'm caught in a position where I want to give all of the boys a good program, but almost have to choose whether to start with the older or younger boys (imo). I would have them sign a contract with their parents outlining their responsibilities, but no one would win if their work was being assigned.

My issue is that there are several troops in my area in a position where we almost compete for the packs' Webelos. Last year, we got 10 boys from 3 packs, this year, we only got 2 boys from our own pack. This is a result of the leaders stepping back a little on program. I Know transition takes time, but I'm concerned to let it go much further and lose the troop as a result.

Hi everyone. I came to the forums for similar help a couple years ago, but now I have some new issues coming up in the troop.

The troop has 20+ boys (most active), a dad stepped up recently as SM to fill a void, and I am the only ASM with any experience. Our COR is former SM, though.

We are attempting to have 3 patrols, mostly mixed age. The real problem comes from us not having any good PL's. Troop has 1 Eagle age 16 that I am going to rely on to be the unofficial SPL/"Guy in Charge". At Summer Camp, SM and I realized we have no boys willing to run as SPL for the troop. This isn't a terrible problem until you realize only one boy wants to be a PL (though the boy is not very popular among his peers). BUT, before the next election the boys hold, I want to get the current PL's to stop complaining and actually do something. In the past, boys have committed and backed out on planning, so I made the stupid decision to save the program. 10 boys are 11 yr-old, another 10 are 12-15. We have two former SPL (one Eagle) 16 yr. old. I have told both former and current SPLs that I am disappointed with how they handled the position, and I'd like to see them try working with PL's to get PL input from patrols. None came close to listening to me or other adult leaders. However, the Eagle we have is more mature and capable to fill an SPL-like role. I asked him if he would consider another term as SPL to get things running again, but he would prefer Instructor. (If he just doesn't want the title, then great, I can give him SPL tasks as well without him minding).

Okay, anyway, I recently had to chat with the oldest PL and his best friend SPL about their attitudes. They complain non-stop about how adults do everything, and I try to explain that I have been asking them to bring me things for months and got nothing. They make excuses and try to say "you don't help us" but I can assure you that a recent talk with the CC proves otherwise. I have even gone as far as to make blank templates for the boys to fill in. Nothing seems to work. When I talked to them this time, I made sure PL's mother was present. Though, when I called her a mother, she corrected me that she is a leader, not a mother (I am so thankful for leaders like her). This leader and I were trying to tell the two boys that what they are doing hardly constitutes leadership and we expect a change. I even bluffed that I would not approve their 4/6-month leadership terms required for Life or Eagle if they didn't improve. (I only say bluff because I doubt there is anything I can do as long as the boy wears the patch on his shoulder for the appropriate amount of time). I told the two that even though they may get Eagle before they learn to lead, they will literally have been given Eagle. I said that I have seen enough boys get Eagle and leave with barely any trace of Scouting in them, and I would like to see these two do better. I tried encouraging them with the "I know you can do it" approach, but they still just complain. I know both have very strong opinions on what they want the troop to be like, but neither will act. (Though I do have to stop them when they make comments about not wanting female leadership at all, and other similar comments).

My last comment to the two was that I will not re-register in a troop that allows non-scout-like behavior to push a boy into Eagle. I am very much at a loss on what to do anymore. I am now waiting to see if my last talk had an impact, but I'd like to ask your opinions on what to do if this does or does not help.

*as a side note, one leader is very active to the point he doesn't want boys to teach NSP since he does it fine himself....granted, he does a great job, I can't convince him that he is overstepping his role. I would like a suggestion before I have to take this to the committee.*

Thank you for your advice,

EagleScouter2010

I didn't find anywhere like this in the forum already, so link me to it if I missed it. I previously posted about my troop becoming boy lead and thankfully it is almost there because of advice we've all received. However, now my troop is facing another dilemma; we're running out of productive ways to organize our meetings (90 minutes). We've been trying to have 20 minutes of patrol time, 30 of instructional, and 20-30 of a group activity, opening/closing too. For the past 4-5 months, the SM and SPL had the troop going off of the Troop Program Guide but everyone has noticed that it isn't working well in our situation. The SPL, SM, and I are about the only ones (boys and adults) who offer any help though there are plenty of ASMs, PLs, and APLs. (The PLCs are mainly the three of us talking because the PLs "forget" to ask what their patrol members want or just don't show up. We're slowly getting better leadership though (so that is sorting itself out), we just can't keep up with everything--committee doesn't help much either). The responsibility falls to the SPL, but since no one could expect him to plan for the troop and patrols with no help, I have been sending him every source I could possibly find for ideas--I now have a bunch of folders within folders within folders, etc. on my desktop of information I've found and made too. I'm hoping that everyone can just post the general activity of your troop's meetings, including activities, here so that everyone gets fresh new ideas and mainly because I'm running out of ideas to share with him (they'll go right into a folder ). Website links would be greatly appreciated too.

Thanks in advance. And I'm hoping that this helps others as well.

RR,

Well, the group had a decent trip at least. I've got a few questions though if you don't mind answering: How much leading did the APL actually do? How much of the PL's or APL's plans actually happened? Have you talked to the SPL yet or at least let him know your opinion? (I actually found a great link if you want a hard copy to show him every responsibility for each troop member. It's not official, but it still helps. http://www.scoutingbsa.org/programs/boyscouts/Principles_of_Scouting/Sample_Troop_Info/Youth_Job_Description_524.html) I don't agree with some minor details, but the main information here is great. Especially show him these: "Assigns duties and responsibilities to junior leaders. Delegation is the main job of the Senior Patrol Leader. Needs to know WHAT needs done so he can decide WHO has to do it." I'm actually going to show a few of the boys some of these at the next meeting so they can judge whether they're doing their jobs or not.

I honestly did laugh at him bringing MREs; I've never heard that one before. You should ask him to show the boys how to cook a proper meal since he might need the challenge. I know someone, too, who has to be seen as the "best stuff" around. If it makes you feel any more confident to reason with him, I can guarantee that about half of the boys in your troop resent Mr. SPL for his selfishness/cockiness/immaturity (or whatever you'd call it). I see this one happen where even an SPL gets distracted from the meeting plans. I'm not sure what to think of him teaching there. It was helpful, but he should be in the background, so kind of a win/lose for you.

If you haven't yet, then I really recommend having some sort of talk with him at your next meeting. He sounds like he is pretty young and maybe isn't ready to be an SPL, but still wants to be in a patrol.

RR,

I think I know what you're talking about because I am guilty of making part of the mistake that your SPL is making now. One of the patrols in my troop was disruptive at meetings, so as the JASM then, I was assigned by the SPL to help them back on track. My mistake was taking the leadership away from the PL until I overheard the SPL talking of forcing the boy out of his position. I immediately realized how blind I had been and took a few steps back so that the young PL could do all the leading. The next time I got involved was to whisper some suggestions into the PLs ear and let him decide. Suitably, this PL had his patrol under the best leadership after I backed off. I know I was a different position than your SPL, but I think the same problem arose and was thankfully solved.

I think the advice you are reading about having your SPL be a guest in the patrol for the weekend is great because he shouldn't have any leadership responsibility on a patrol outing. You should be very careful with allowing your SPL to think that he can walk in and replace the PL in this case. Inviting himself on the trip was bad enough, but taking the leadership role away from him is horrible. Wingnut is completely right about how you should spend your time with him. Your best bet is trying to make him realize that he's hurting that patrol, belittling the PL, and actually missing out on the good time he can have watching the PL lead. I realized right before I corrected my mistake that my SM had told me only days before this event "Let PL do the talking." Those words were all that I needed to hear to realize my mistake. I'm hoping you have as much luck as my SM had with me a while ago. (I also hope that you have as easy a time). The biggest mistake you can make with this is letting the SPL lead the trip. If he argues that he's a higher position than the PL, let him know who's above him. If you don't feel comfortable letting him know who's boss, then make the advice come from someone below him (in the form of an unhappy little TF, an angry PL, or whoever else can get the message across).

I hope this helps, good luck with whatever route you decide to take.

Hi everyone,

I was looking around this forum to find some helpful stuff relevant to my situation and I came up with minimal that really dealt with this. If I missed a forum, please attach a link or tell me where I can find it. thanks.

Anyway, I'm a 17 year-old Junior Assistant Scout Master and Eagle in my troop and have been here for almost 2 years. I've been looking around a lot at what some of you online have to say about your troops and I am very embarrassed at how mine is being run (by the adults). I would like to know how to get more people involved in planning and leading because there is a big potential for the younger boys (all but 4 boys including me) who are 14 or younger. They are mostly all eager to learn and some of them have a very good drive to get their Eagle ranks some day. I would love to see that but I want them to have the most experience that they can before they are ready for that step.

My troop is currently fully run by the adults with very little exception. I will be very busy myself with planning trips and meetings because this troop has never gone backpacking....so sad. I am going to be taking my backpacking and hiking merit badges and I thought that I could get them involved as well since I have to plan and take part in many events for the badges. My point being that I want the other boys to start planning stuff and let the adults enjoy their chairs. To the best of my knowledge, none of the events have been planned by the boys in 5-10 years. But my real question is sort of a long and drawn out statement.

The adults in my troop actually enjoy running everything and stepping in 24/7. They enjoy to do everything that the boys should be doing but not so much the adult part. I don't know if they would be able to watch a boy learn through failure which seems to be a very popular teaching method (which I am 100% in favor of). I have not directly confronted the adults and asked them to step back for multiple reasons. The main one is that they enjoy it too much and I don't know if they would understand that I was trying to help. But I walked in while some adults where talking and heard the words "we" and "plan" so many times between them that I wanted to vomit.

Well...here's a better example, I'll explain how my last camping trip went... We spent a weekend at a local campground while our cub pack stayed in a lodge a few campsites away. We were the only troop/pack there that weekend.

Friday:

We arrived in segments on Friday night at the campground and unloaded the gear as more people arrived. The two boys who arrived before me suggested setting our campsite in the field...only problem is that it was at the bottom of a hill the night after it rained. Plus...no campfire ring and we weren't planning on cutting into the nice field for one weekend. As we finished unpacking two of the scouts started making dinner....with the help of my father... Since the adults eat with us, they don't want to have to eat the horrendous mess that we would obviously make since we are all so incompetent and have never been given the chance to learn. Oh, and the best part is that we followed kudu's advice almost exactly. We were camped about 300 feet away from the leaders...except we were missing both zeroes and it was more like 3 feet....it's like being babysat.

Saturday:

On Saturday morning, I awoke to a fire that I didn't even know we were planning to have. I had understood that we would only need one for the dinners on Friday and lunch Saturday...but no...the adults needed to build a fire for us. Breakfast was a repeat of dinner except a lot worse. My father cooked the eggs and bread while the two boys on kitchen duty stared at a pot of steaming sausage for a half hour. After eating, the troop (except me and two adults) left for a small service project. I stayed behind to work on the only planned activity that we would have all weekend. It was a compass course that ended up taking an hour for the boys to complete when they were finished....it took me about two hours to plan it, walk the distance multiple times and retest it to make sure it was accurate... I did not know that the boys had that little knowledge of a compass. throughout the evening, the boys went over to have a fun game of kickball...against the cub scouts and cub leaders. Later, we held a cub scout cross over for 5 boys into our troop. That went off fine and we went back to camp. I was impressed because two boys actually asked if they could sleep with our troop because they didn't want to be with all of the "annoying younger kids." Saturday's dinner almost gave me a heart attack... the boy who had been assigned beforehand to do cook was not there so another boy who rarely does anything volunteered by himself. He is only 12-13 and did most of the work...aside from what my father did. Still proud of the scout for stepping up though.

Sunday:

Well...Sunday breakfast was pot luck so I didn't think there would be a problem cooking...my father still reheated the food though...not a boy. I will say that I am guilty of not volunteering to take his place at all of these instances, but I think the parents would be much happier to know that little Jimmy and Johnny did not burn themselves because they were being watched by an adult who did not let them help. And to make matters so much better, the adults got the fire wood, split it, and made all of the fires. The boys did keep them burning though...

I felt like I was in cub scouts again because I had forgotten how much the adults stepped in. The only thing that the new cross-overs said that was impressive was their later bedtime... Not sure if that means they were unimpressed or that they just didn't say anything.

My main point again is that none of the boys have planned things and the adults don't know that they can. I don't know how much I can do myself without having other people know what is happening. I need general advice and maybe even some situations that worked for the rest of you to deal with this problem. It was nice when I was 12 and had no idea that boys actually ran other troops, but now it is becoming a nuisance. I am almost embarrassed to tell people that I am a Boy Scout or even that I am an Eagle Scout because I am ashamed at how little I have actually been given the opportunity to do. I thought that the adult's job was to encourage the boys to do things, not to do it for them when the boys show lack of enthusiasm. This is just a very sore topic for me because of how poorly things operate here.

I'm practically begging for help here. I have no idea at all how to do this by myself, and to top it all off, the SM is new and the committee holds monthly meetings to talk about the weather (from what I have been told). Please leave me any information that is relevant. Thank you so much

EagleScouter2010

Again, thanks to all of you for your advice. I have taken all of these comments into thought (from other forum topics too) and am slowly building a plan. For my troop's next meeting, I would like to talk to my SM and SPL about two main points: sitting the patrols down to elect a PL and to create a yell, name,...etc. The second point needs to be the creation of a PLC. We have not had one since I have been in this troop and I would like to have one organized quickly.

That spurs another question that is bothering me: Would it be a good idea for me to suggest that I lead the first PLC to show my SPL what needs to be done or would it be better for me to show him the information and hope he knows what to do with it? I do not feel that he is ready at this moment (maybe in a few weeks once things are hopefully running smoothly) to lead this troop, but I don't want to step in and take over; I want this to be his position, not mine.

Anyway, that is my short-term goal....sadly, it might take a month before any of it gets done. My "long"-term goal is coming up in early May. My troop is going camping by itself and I would like to organize a program to build patrol teamwork and teach skills to the boys as well is attempt our first campout that we could try the 300 feet camping. The trip is with our Webelos II Den and that makes it even better timing since it will be their first glimpse of how our troop works. I currently have access to the Scoutmaster's Junior Leaders Training Kit and also the Troop Program Activities Volumes 1-3 via my father who was a scout himself, and also a SM. He also has the SM Handbook (not sure if anything in that is useful to me though.) Most of the information in those books is very helpful and I am going to suggest things directly out of them.

My longer-term goal is for my SM to hold a TLT over a weekend this summer. I am just going to offer the idea to him and hope it goes well.

Being a pessimist (my way of being prepared for the worst possible outcome) I am imagining my next meeting to be as chaotic as the last one, but being slightly hopeful, I am imagining the troop in a few years with these boys leading it perfectly.

The week-days are busy for me and I may not have much time to explore or to create other options. I will be reading any future posts, and I will try to inform you of the results of my next meeting by the end of the week. Thank you for the comments and thank you in advance for the extra advice that I know will come later.

CalicoPenn, our next elections will most likely be held in march/april of 2012. I believe that they should be held bianually, but the SM wants it to go a year (at least for now) since the troop is slowly becoming boy lead again. I am under 18, and my reason for not volunteering myself is due to the SM; he has said that he wants the Eagles to be JASMs because that is more of an all inclusive position. I do agree with him and have agreed to his offer though.

I do love all of your suggestions that you are giving, but as for campouts, I have a lot of plans/ideas now. I am lost at how to improve our meetings. They each last 90 minutes and barely anything gets done. As I mentioned earlier, I will be involved with the Webelos II den every night (they meet for an hour starting when we do) for the first 30-45 minutes. My troop has very limited "good" leadership (I would like to consider myself the best youth leader, I'm so modest...) and I need a way to ensure that my SPL and ASPL are keeping the patrols busy and happy. I have found many activities but as of my last meeting, the SPL is being more of a road block to my ideas. He disagrees with the NSP concept (important in our troop to keep them away from the intimidating older boy) and does not like the idea of the troop game/activity to learn skills. He prefers the sit-down and stare at your instructor method, at least for the 5 minutes that he tells someone to instruct them. I wanted to talk with him last meeting but was overwhelmed with the Webelos for longer than expected and did not get the chance. I have found SPL guides from other troops online and want to show them to him as a starting block.

Basically, my problem is how to encourage the SPL to become the leader that I believe he can be.

Regarding the guides, I have access to TG stuff and am getting a den chief guide to help with the transition of the new boys into our troop.

Thank you for all of your suggestions, again. And keep them coming.

SeattlePioneer, with my current troop, I am not sure if they should learn from mistakes at this point, most of them would be pulled out by angry parents and I would need to find another troop...I love learning from mistakes, but most people don't understand that, especially with the mindset that "everyone is a winner"

We are participating in our area's upcoming camporee and we are camping a few weeks after this as a troop. I would love to try the separation of patrols on both of these trips and I would also like to plan events for my troop's trip to show the younger boys that it is not too difficult.

Again, thanks for all the advice, keep it coming. Thanks!

Thank you all for your advice so far. I would like to clarify a few things and make this as specific as possible for you.

Kudu, I like your overall idea of weeding out the "indoor" scouts, but I still have the problem with my SPL. I feel that I should not do things over his head but I also feel that he is not motivated anymore and will not listen to my suggestions or ideas. I really wish that there were four obvious natural leaders in my troop!

moosetracker, to answer, your first question, yes I was in another troop, but it was slowly collapsing as I reached Eagle. It had 2 patrols with about 10 boys in each (only because about 6 in each patrol regularly showed up.) My SM at the time was trying to organize it as a boy lead troop and then we realized that most of the boys wanted a second cub scout program...We hit a speed bump about a year before the troop ended, with about 80% of the boys leaving the troop and leaving scouting. Only two of the boys went to another troop (both leaving, ironically, for a boy lead troop; they were not willing to help create one, they wanted to be in one immediately.) As our troop folded, one boy (I think tenderfoot,) the other Eagle, and I moved over to my current troop.

Your next question was about the way my current troop had been run. I am told stories about it having 3 patrols at one point, all of them being extremely boy lead. The same adults are still around, but mostly they only use their mouths and physically do not help. The troop has monthly committee meetings that involve arguing and chit-chat about the weather. The SM has not been with the troop as long as them (therefore, he has motivation but lacks the ideas.) The troop that I am in consists of me, the other eagle, a 15 year-old, two 14 year-olds (the SPL and ASPL,) and the rest are 12-13. Before the other Eagle and I came over, they had one older boy (also an Eagle) but he is now an adult...

I'm assuming POR is (position of rank) I've never heard anyone use that acronym except for here. I listed the ages of the boys above and their ranks are: one star, two first class, maybe 3 second class, and then the rest, (one is still scout...) With some of the positions, we will have to omit the rank or experience requirements because most of the boys have never had a position. The other Eagle got to his rank by what I guess is luck. because of the boys in our previous troop slowly dropping out, he was able to be frequently elected to a position. He also swears frequently and likes to play a game of "listen to me or I'll hit you" with the scouts (that is why i believe the new scouts coming in would be intimidated.) I honestly believe that my new SM is even starting to see this in him and giving up on the boy's Eagle "experience"

I hate to say this because I want my troop to be boy lead, but the SM was right when he switched some of the boys. The SPL and ASPL picked the patrols with the other Eagle scout hovering over their shoulders pointing his finger and making suggestions. Because we have no patrol leaders...still...each patrol is lead by SPL/other Eagle, and ASPL/me...and of course most of the boys who have social difficulties were all in the same patrol that was going to be my responsibility. The patrols had to be switched so that the patrol method would work.

I would love to see (it might be jblake47's idea that I read somewhere) of giving the camping ideas to the boys and throwing them out if there is not youth leadership for them, but this troop would die as quickly as my last one if this happened.

Your next suggestion was a good one that we read scouting resources...but unfortunately, asking my SPL or other scouts/scouters, other than the SM and one other ASM, would be like asking a frog to speak. I might want it desperately to happen, but no matter how hard I try it would not happen. I need a way to motivate them, because saying that nothing will get done if there is not youth leadership would probably make them laugh and turn to the adults.

The last meeting was very uneventful...I had assumed (stupid me!) that the scouts under our new SPL, who I WAS very confident in, would have new patrol names, yells, flag designs/ideas, and that he would have organized a date for a PLC. (this brings up another question for me) BSA states that the PLC consists of the SPL, ASPL, PLs, and TG, I believe. As of now, this would consist of two boys. I am hoping to become a JASM soon and am wondering how to suggest to my SPL that I should help in the PLCs without sounding like I am controlling him.

Next, we currently have not accomplished any of my hopes listed above...no PLC and no meetings planned. It never occurred to me that we should watch another troop. If I can get the SM and SPL on board with that, I would like to give that a try. I know a few troops with some of my friends involved in them that would let us visit.

I believe that my SM is trained, but I have not been to any training...(I prefer reading things online like this, they are much more efficient and save me time/money.) I never went to my local NYLT because multiple scouts spoke negatively about the councilors there and that they were not very scout-like. I know that I must stand on the side-lines now, but part of me wants to jump in and get involved. I never experienced a true boy lead troop and I am sad to realize what I have missed out on. Also, with the age of the boys, I do have to step in on some (most) occasions to teach them new skills.

Wow, you really got me thinking, moosetracker, thanks!

Eagle92, thanks for the advice. I am not sure if I can get a copy of those books, but I will try. I have been trying for the past month to get the activities organized, but my SPL has already refused the only one that I have been able to show him because "the scout's cannot do an activity if half of them don't know a certain lashing"

jblake47, I am trying or will try all of your suggestions and am hoping that all of them work

Should I suggest that our older youth leadership goes to NYLT (maybe including me...)??? I guarantee that it would have to be troop paid to convince anyone to go.

If you need any more info. on how my new troop does things, please ask so that you can offer as much advice as possible.

Hi, I am new to this forum and so thankful that I have found it. I am an Eagle Scout in my troop and feel that I am one of the few who is motivated for a change. I have been in my current troop for one year now and it has always been adult lead. Our current SM, who is about 2 years into the position, recently decided to push towards a boy lead troop. I have been reading the Patrol Method forum topics like crazy for the past two weeks so that I could help him.

I would like to start out by stating how our Troop has recently "elected" a new SPL and an ASPL. The two boys were our only members who were both willing and qualified for the position. The others who were qualified simply had no motivation (including our current ASPL who is only tagging along with his best friend, the current SPL.) The two newly "elected" leaders sat together with another Eagle (one who has a lot more important priorities than BSA) and split our Troop into two patrols without the boys' consent. One boy told me that he would quit scouting if he was not in his friend's patrol. It was easy enough to keep the two friends together though. Currently, our SM is still switching boys to correct the "mistakes" made by the boy leaders.

At our last meeting, the SM instructed the SPL on which requirements to assign the entire troop to do. He chose the timber hitch, which turned into a five minute bowline and timber hitch tying and then an hour of "free time." I am going to be actively involved with our webelos II den until they are ready for their AOL and need a way to encourage the boys to step up when I am not there. An adult even commented to me that he wished that I had been there because no one (not even the other Eagle, youth leaders, or adults) was keeping the troop on track and running smoothly.

Nothing got done in the meeting except for the quick knot tying. The two patrols still have no name, yell, flag,...etc. I was hoping for them to accomplish this last night but that did not happen. Another problem is that the boys do not recognize the patrols yet. The SM (not the SPL) separated the boys into their patrols to start...but being only 30 feet from the other, it did not take much effort for one boy's friend to migrate toward him and soon others moved too.

My SPL commented on not having a NSP and I informed him that the boys will probably be slightly intimidated if they are split up right away. I even offered to him a fun lashing game that the boys could do in patrols and his response was "Well, that won't work, most of the boys don't know how to lash" (not exact wording as i do not have a photographic memory.) I was extremely shocked and asked him how the boys were supposed to learn them if they didn't have activities like that. At this, he quickly sighted the other Eagle scout and walked by me to talk with him.

My concern is in the boys, not the adults. The SM and some of the ASM leaders have the knowledge or motivation but, I would like to approach this entirely boy lead; and I would like other opinions on how to tackle this problem. I am hesitant to mention any more of the ideas on this forum to the SPL and SM because of the manner in which they treated my comment about keeping an NSP for a few months at least.

Please help my troop.

Thanks!