Eaglemom2b

Qwazse - your response is quite helpful and exactly what I was looking for. I will let him read the replies and he can determine for himself what he wishes to do. It will probably be a while before he applies for the Adventure segment (if he ever gets to that point) and he may not need or want to count an activity twice.

The nice thing about being interested in high adventure is meeting people who are like minded. When he was at Northern Tier he learned about the Triple Crown and how by earning it most scouts can also earn the NOA- Adventure segment. One scout told him he counted the 10 day Philmont Trek as three separate acitivities.

Unfortunately there is also a lot of misinformation being passed along between the scouts. Hence, DS's questions.

Basement - chill out, please. He wants to earn the award and is asking me questions about what counts. I have no stinking idea how to answer most of them and neither does anyone in our District. Everyone is either too new in their position or just doesn't care. I assumed this forum was an appropriate place to ask our questions.

And yes, we did discuss the riding segment. That has been settled long ago.

And no one is quibbling about miles on a sailboat. DS has questions about what acitivities fulfill the backpacking requirements. I brought up the sailboat thing as a rabbit trail.

Geesh, Basement, I hope you extend more kindness and courtesy to the scouts in real life than you do to those online.

FYI - DS is trying to do something in scouts that will set him apart from the masses. He had a college admissions officer tell him that with 50,000+ Eagles this year, earning Eagle is not enough anymore. This particular school is looking for something more, something that says this kid did something in scouts. DS thought that the NOA would do it.

He is definitely counting it as 3g but each trip can fulfill multiple criteria. He just wondered if it would count as both 3a and 3g.

So what do you think about the Sea Base Live Aboard program qualifying for 3g & 3b? They certainly sail more than 50 miles as they putter around for the 5 days they are on the ocean. It's not 25 out and 25 back.

(simply asking out of curiosity; I am not trying to be argumentative.)

Well, OGE, since you have approximately 2000 more posts than Eamon, you are indeed a Super Moderator. I wonder what happens when you hit 10000?!?!

This is how Req #3 is written:

Complete 10 of any combination or repetition of the following adventure activities, under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America:

a. A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food re-supply

b. A canoeing, rowing, or sailing trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 50 miles without food re-supply

c. A whitewater trip lasting two or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food re-supply

d. A climbing activity on open rock, following principles, that includes camping overnight

e. Earn the National Historic Trails Award

f. Earn the 50-Miler Award

g. Attend any national high-adventure base or any nationally recognized local high-adventure or specialty-adventure program

Items 3a–g may be repeated as desired.

[*]A single activity that satisfies multiple items in 3a–g may be counted as separate activities, at the discretion of the unit leader.

[*]Similarly, a single activity that doubles an item in 3a–d may be counted as two activities, at the discretion of the unit leader.

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DS went to Okpik - Holiday stay; two nights at Northern Tier, 3 nights on the ice without food resupply . He hauled everything on a sled on the way out and on the way back. Everything else was done with day packs out of a base camp. They camped 6 miles into the Boundary Waters. They hiked every day and covered more than 20 miles in distance.

The question is with the wording of req 3 (a). Does hauling a sled and using day packs count as backpacking?

I also know that there are good scouters out there and they are positive influences on many boys. For this I am grateful.

We are in a small rural area, less than 40,000 in the county. These boys represent a significant portion of the last 3 year's of Eagle classes (from 3 different troops), so maybe it is just this particular cohort.

Basement - I know they are people and I don't expect perfect behavior 100% of the time.

Heck , I don't expect it the majority of the time. I did expect some sense of honor, though, a maybe a little commonsense, esp. when these boys are connected to Scouting pages on FB and every other member of these groups can see what they are posting and doing.

It makes me think of the thread about the relevance of scouting. If all we are going to produce are men and boys who are expert campers, hikers, climbers and kayakers - in essence, great outdoorsmen - but who don't uphold the other values, then what's the point? We are no different from 4H or other organizations.

Maybe I expect more from the pledge to be 'morally straight' than I should.

I need to vent this because it breaks my heart and I am wondering if things like this are going on everywhere or if it is unique to our area.

Many, many scouters in our area just don't live up to the Oath and Law. Adult leaders brag about cussing out teachers, the principal and the administration; Eagle scouts give speeches at EBORs about how Eagle doesn't really mean anything in the real world and that Eagle Scouts, like everyone else, do drugs, get drunk and go to jail; Eagle scouts get girls pregnant out of wedlock and don't marry them; Eagle scouts are suspended from high school for bullying; Eagle scouts are posting pics on FB that show underage drinking and partying with girls dancing on stripper poles...

there are so many more examples of negative behaviors of scouts and scouters in our area.

Then people wonder why scouts and scouting have a bad reputation and numbers in our area are down.

Watching it now and had to pause because about 3mins in and I already see problems with the BORs of which I have been a part.

I knew Scoutmasters were not allowed to be on the Board but I didn't know ASMs were also not allowed. Both troops in which my son has participated have allowed ASMs to sit on BORs.

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As a learning tool to conduct BORs, I felt it was pretty decent. It clarified some points with which I had negative experiences.

I could have done without some of the banter (esp at the end)(This message has been edited by Eaglemom2b)

The two I have found for the Kindle Fire are not good so I cannot recommend them. Both are advancement apps but they are out of date, incomplete and need to be edited. For example, information for one award pops up under the title for a second award which cannot be found anywhere.

I too would like to know if there are good Scouting apps.

It has always been my belief that serious infractions meant being kicked out of scouting. How many points of the Scout Law did this scout break? He certainly wasn't trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous or kind.

I would hate to think that this behavior would be excused 'just this once' and then have something far worse happen in the future. Everyone will be questioning why the situation wasn't handled differently the first time.

In a time when the BSA is already having tough PR problems that last thing the organization needs is to 'tread lightly' on its stance of bullying and misbehavior. Adult scouters, leaders, and officials at every level need to say enough is enough and start standing up for scouting principles.

Scouting isn't a boys ranch where troubled youth are sent to learn proper social skills and appropriate behavior. If we allow, justify or excuse this type of behavior we are asking for trouble. Trouble that will take the form of increased violent behavior or bullying, difficult to manage scouts and failing units.

Packsaddle - no harm, no foul. I just wanted to make sure the general readership understood my perspective.

I didn't say anything about guns, not one word. The only point I addressed was in regard to the number and type of people in the wilderness due to changes in accessibility.

One of the first things discussed in Leave No Trace training is the change accessibility has had on the environment. From the LNT webpage: Between 1965 and 1980, backcountry visits jumped from 4 million visitor days per year to 10 million per year. (A visitor day is a 12 hour stay by one person.) In 1984 the number grew to 15 million visitor days up 275 percent in less than 20 years. The numbers of backcountry (and frontcountry) visitors continue to grow at a fast pace.

That trend appears to be continuing. The Florissant Fossil Beds in CO has seen a 10%+ increase in visitors over the last 5 years, from 55,000 visitors in 2007 to almost 62,000 in 2011. CO national Monument went from 395,000 to over 435,000 per year; again, another 10% increase.

Here's the link to the 5 year report from the NPR: https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/System%20Wide%20Reports/5%20Year%20Annual%20Report%20By%20Park

What I do not know by looking at the numbers is the age range of the visitors. I doubt, however, that a bunch of 6 year olds are heading out to the fossil beds of their own volition and accord.

My point, and my only point, is this: we are kidding ourselves if we believe that every person who ventures out into the backcountry is going to have the same agenda, philosophy and ethics as we (scouters) do.

I make no supposition as to the possibility of running into a troublemaker or finding oneself in a life threatening situation, from either two- or four-legged perpetrators. I will not, however, disregard the concern of other individuals because I know the possibility exists.

I haven't quite finished the thread but I would like to add...

I grew up camping and hiking in the CO wilderness. When I was young we needed a four-wheel drive to get to the best campgrounds and trailheads. It was a rarity to see more than two or three other groups during the trip. We took fishing poles, food, cameras and camping gear. No need for firearms. The only other people who were going to be out that far were outdoor enthusiasts and scout troops; safe people no doubt.

Over time, the state and federal governments have made the backcountry more accessible. Roads that were once dirt, rock or treacherous are now paved, lined and offer guard rails. It no longer takes a Jeep, truck or other 4WD vehicle to access the remote area. Anyone with a vehicle with four wheels and a well maintained brake system can get to these spots. Retirees are driving their Winnebagos and setting up month long sites for goodness sakes. There's nothing worse than thinking you are going into backcountry and pulling into Dorchester and seeing Grandma and Grandpa Bean sitting there with their hummingbird feeders and windchimes hanging off the canopy of their multi-extension trailer. (That's a whole other issue, though).

Places that once saw maybe two to three hundred people over a summer are now seeing 200-300 people a weekend. These individuals are not just up there to enjoy the aspen trees or to summit a 14,000 mountain. The rangers have all noted increased criminal activity. Campers, tents and cars are broken into and personal items are stolen and/or destroyed. Certain areas have become known as teenage party areas and the rangers will encourage family campers to avoid those sites.

As more and more people venture into the backcountry to enjoy nature they are encountering more and more people. It leads to frustration and increased opportunities for altercations. I have seen people argue over whether or not one group was being too loud and boisterous and disturbing the peace. I have heard stories of people arguing over the proper use of ATVs.

I have even been on the receiving end of vandalism. Our group parked the cars at a backcountry trailhead and went on our hike. When we returned every car had been vandalized. Rocks (which are plentiful in CO) and been thrown through the windows and each car had been ransacked. Stereos, cassettes (yes, this was in the 80's and before CD players were affordable) spare tires, jacks, etc., everything was taken. We drove to the nearest DNR station and reported the crime. The ranger told us that this was not a unique occurrence and that it happened most every weekend. They were looking for the group responsible. I don't know if they ever found out who was doing it but I do remember feeling violated and frightened.

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Granted no one was hurt in any of these examples but I wanted to share the idea that not everyone in the backcountry has everyone else's wellbeing in mind. There are ornery, misguided people in the wilderness just as much as there are happy, honest folk. With increased access comes increased opportunity, both positive and negative.

I don't see the problem. The training is informative and beneficial. The time commitment is minimal. Most of the driving to the outings will take longer than the training.

Our previous troop used parents who had never been through YP and issues arose all of the time about the interpretation of the rules, esp. the two deep leadership portion, which to me is great importance.

Our troop and crew are in separate towns, have different COs and different meeting days. The only connection they have is that the Scoutmaster is the Crew Advisor. This man's character is top notch and his dedication to young people is extraordinary.

I think the interpretation should be that each scout earns at least 1. If my son's troop were to go by the suggested criteria of an average of 1 per scout then the troop has earned the award based on my son's efforts alone. He has earned 15 MBs on the approved list and 11 on the substitute list, there are 9 active scouts in his troop. I think offering this award to the troop based on that number would be a disservice to the spirit of the award.(This message has been edited by Eaglemom2b)

I can't believe I know something you all haven't mentioned yet.

The BSA is initiating a new environmental awareness campaign in association with Tread Lightly. The information is already included in the Venturing handbook and will soon be found in the Boy Scout Handbook. Tread Lightly focuses on the use of motorized vehicles in the outdoors.

Here's a link to the Tread Lightly website: http://www.treadlightly.org/

I know a couple of BSA LNT trainers (including one Master Trainer) who are going through Tread Lightly training in preparation for the inclusion of Tread Lightly in BSA programming.

I do not know the official dates of the adoption of Tread Lightly but it is coming.

Is this scout showing interest? If so, I would contact the District to see if a NOVA counselor has already been registered. If not, I would try to find someone willing to take on that responsibility. The counselor list for the STEM merit badges is a great place to begin your search.

My understanding is a general counselor is required for the four basic NOVA awards (shoot, start your engines, whoosh and designed to crunch). If the scout chooses to move on to Supernova he is required to work with a mentor.

Does the scout have a copy of the guidebook? Getting that into his hands is important. Once he knows the reqs and can determine which subjects he is interested in studying, it might help narrow down the choices of counselor/mentor. There is little benefit in selecting a counselor whose main interest is microbiology if the scout is interested in physics.

Have the scout look through the MBs required for the awards. If he is a strong STEM candidate he may be surprised at how many of the MBs he has earned. This might encourage him to move forward through the four awards and shoot for Supernova.

Good luck! Please keep us posted about what happens. I am curious to see how many scouts choose to persue NOVA.

Thank you for the frank and honest replies.

I guess I should have included in the OP that my son declined attending the campout during initial sign up due to the school conflicts. It was only after the parent offered the ride that my son agreed to go on the campout. She said she was going up anyway so she would take my son along.

And I would like to reiterate - the issue isn't that the girls went. I am uncomfortable with crew members taking precedence over troop members at a troop outing.

To the poster who inquired why the moms were going up a day late - they have newly crossed over webelos and I believe Scouts is more like Webelos 3 at the moment.

We are just going to chalk it up as a learning experience. My son is the only high schooler in the troop and I guess we will be anticipating many more conflicts in the future as the elementary and junior high boys will have different school schedules(and possibly more flexibility) than he will.

Thanks again for helping me work through this.

After spending the day outside I feel much better and less stressed.

JMHawkins- it was a school conflict. The troop was leaving while my son was involved with school. I cannot pull him early to attend a campout the first two weeks of school.

Way to read into some of this. I am surprised at some of the replies.I expected some to tell me to get over it but the snarkiness was completely unexpected. What happened to a scout is kind and friendly?

First - the poster who implied that my son didn't attend simply because there were girls is way off base; the idea is ludicrous. The issue is there was no room for my son because of the girls and their gear. The backseat of the vehicle is tiny, it may have fit three young children but not three teenagers. Yes, there were enough seatbelts.

Two - the schedule conflict was school. My son's school activities have already begun and the school district the other scouts attend doesn't begin for another week which allowed those boys to go up a day early. This wasn't a problem because of the leader who had to work and couldn't go up early either.

Three - I could have driven him but didn't think I needed to since the other adult had already volunteered and was going up anyway. The changes were last minute. There is no way I could have changed my schedule to accommodate an unplanned 10 hour round trip on a Friday evening. If I knew this was going to happen two weeks ago when the plans were made I would have been able to drive and it would have been a nonissue.

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Second Class - I think you hit it on the problem perfectly. I am upset because my son was told he had a ride and then when it came down to it there wasn't room because of last minute changes. Had we known about this in advance (we saw this family on Wed and nothing was said about the girls going at that time) we could have found a larger vehicle or found alternate transportation.

These changes were also a surprise to the SM. He says the issue will be addressed at the next committee meeting.

Here's the quick version -

My son's troop planned a four day campout for this weekend. The troop left on Thurs. and my son was unable to go at that time due to a scheduling conflict. Two mothers (one a registered leader) were going up on Friday and agreed to take my son. This has planned for two weeks.

Friday morning the mother who is the registered leader called me to tell me that two girls (her daughter and a friend) from the Venture Crew decided they wanted to go on the campout as well. This would cause the vehicle to be overcrowded. The vehicle is super small and would barely hold three people and their camping gear let alone five people and the gear. The ride to the campout was about 5.5 hours.

After much discussion it was decided that my son would not go on the the trip due to the close quarters in the vehicle.

This is what I am upset about:

1) this was a troop campout, not a crew activity; the Venturers should not have been allowed to attend and take precedence over a Scout

2) even if it had been a Venturing activity the girls should not have been allowed to sign up the day of departure and throw everything into turmoil; this campout had been planned for weeks, the troop was already at the campground and supplies had been purchased for a specific number of campers

3) I was also concerned about my son riding with two girls and two women. I am not sure of the requirements for co-ed traveling. I know there are supposed to me both male and female leaders on overnights but I am not sure about car rides. The vehicle they took would have put my son into extremely close contact with either both girls or at least one of them (depending upon seating arrangements).

Would you be upset?

My son has now missed the final campout before school begins; a campout he really wanted to attend. He was familiar with the area the troop was visiting and he wanted to show some leadership skills and make a strong impact on his new troop.

Packsaddle-

The tree is the Black Thorn Locust. It is a fast growing tree that tends to choke out the slower growing native trees.

I think his plan (from the last time he told me about it)is to have a group go in and tag all of the BTLs that are in the plot he has chosen to clear. Then he is going to have a group of adults go in and cut down the bigger trees. These will be cut into managable pieces and taken to an area to be burned (per the benefitting organization). Once the larger trees are out the boys will be able to go in and clear the small trees.

DS's original plan was to mulch the smaller trees and use the mulch in other areas of the nature center. He changed his mind after looking at the size of the thorns. He also wanted to cut and stack the wood for the patrons who use the onsite log cabins and fire pit. Someone told him that BTL doesn't burn well, though. He is supposed to be researching that topic and determining if BTL is suitable firewood.

He is anticipating four or five full work days.

My son's project is to remove an invasive species from a local nature center. The center covers about 50 acres and is being overrun by an invasive tree. He has selected a 5 acre site and will remove all of the invasives (the estimate is around 350+ trees). Most of the trees have a diameter of less than 5 inches so he hopes the work will go quickly.

I don't know how unique or creative it is but in our district it is the first project of it's kind. Most boys in our area do some sort of contruction roject (i.e. flag poles, flower beds, picnic tables, etc.)

My son wants to earn the Hornaday and selected an Eagle project that would fit the Hornaday criteria as well as satisfy the Eagle requirements.