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Tampa Turtle, I am sorry to see you go. The forum will be poorer without your voice. It is sad to see the casualties of the recent changes. I hope the moderators reflect on your statement. There is nothing that could be posted here that would cause me distress and I hope the moderators don't feel undue pressure on our behalf. I hope you continue Scouting and have many happy days of camping ahead of you.

@The Latin Scot It’s a strange time for us LDS Scouters, with such a range of emotions. I’ve been involved in Scouting for most of my life as a boy and now an adult leader. Thomas S. Monson (recent LDS President and Silver Buffalo) famously said: “Decisions determine destiny”. BSA has shown us that decisions can also detour destiny. I’ve never been divorced, but I wonder if there are steps of acceptance and withdrawal that may apply here as we transition and move on. I’m glad we will have the next 18 months to work through this (both personally and organizationally). Especially for the most dedicated of LDS Scouters, there will be a lot to work through.

I've been thinking a lot about this over the past few days. I do indeed see things differently, though not in the ways many seem to think. I know this may not be the thread for this, but it is in response to a comment made in this thread, so I knew not where else to post it - moderators may remove it to a more appropriate thread without objection from me if that better serves the integrity of this topic. First of all, people are trying to "sequence" events, trying to determine which came first - a church move to exit Scouting, or incoming policy changes which the church found objectionable. I think the question is at this point irrelevant. Asking how we got to this point is no longer what matters - the question is, where are we now, and where will that lead us? For the church, growth continues throughout the world, in many lands at astronomical rates - Latin America, Western Africa, the Philippines - all are seeing incredible growth, and such continues in all other nations and domestically as well. It makes sense that we would want to unify all our members, and that starts with teaching the children (something every Scouter will appreciate). By unifying our programs, we are unifying youth all over the world in a shared program that will build harmony of faith, ideals, fellowship, understanding, and morality. Scouting has been a wonderful asset in helping the church understand the essentials of building successful foundations in the growth of young men - now we are equiped to create an equally effective program, but centered on our own unchanged and unchanging moral beliefs. For Scouting, those core moral beliefs are no longer clear. Unlike the church, which has a clear leadership structure based on one shared doctrinal foundation, Scouting must share the moral and philosophical beliefs of many hundreds of religions and ideologies - and far more so, it can be affected by popular opinion and partisan agendas. When the moral fiber of its society is srong, Scouting itself is all the stronger for it, because its leadership is inherently built out of an amalgamation of shared ideals. But when that society becomes divisive, demanding changes to the core values which Scouting once clung to, Scouting itself does not have the internal structural integrity required to withstand the pressure - in other words, Scouting does not have the inherent authority to repulse outside influences forever. The Boy Scouts of America has held out far longer than most other world Scouting organizations (Scouting UK's recent push to make its Scouts "employable" reflects drastically a complete abandonment of Baden-Powell's purpose of building men of character and not material ambition). For over 100 years, the BSA still believed that boys needed a special place of their own, a place where their unique character, temperment, energy and zeal for life could find a safe, healthy outlet - a place where they could commune with each other, with nature, and with God. Now, its internal structure, which was originally designed to openly allow invested, caring adults to share a guiding hand in protecting that environment, has been hijacked and usupred by conspiring men and women determined to use the BSA and its proud heritage as a platform from which to push their own selfish and destructive societal agendas - and the young men of this country are their primary targets. Now, it seems, they are winning greater and greater victories. Now girls are coming in, crowding out the safe space boys should have enjoyed by signing up for a program that wasn't designed for them, and which simply will not serve them like it serves boys. And so eventually changes will be made, and boys will slowly lose all the benefits that Scouting was meant to offer them. They will become marginalized in their own program. They will eventually be taught in Scouting that immoral behaviors should be tolerated, even celebrated. And soon this organization will no longer be the Boy Scouts of America. They will cling to that name for a while, till the advantages of that name are used up, and eventually it too is dropped. But already, that orginal program of over one hundred years, is almost gone. It may become a fun program, it may become an instructive program - but will not be the same program. That program, the Boy Scouts of America, the one founded by Baden-Powell, Beard, Seton, West, Hillcourt - that program does not exist anymore. The images you see in the Rockwell paintings, of boys in the woods and on the streets, in churches, communities, shelters, hospitals, backyards and living rooms, boys camping, fishing, serving, helping, caring - they are of an organization I believe will soon no longer exist. And so. Whereas before I felt that I was sad to leave, I realize now that to say Scouting is losing me would be a falsehood. Not that losing one volunteer would make any difference, but that I - that our nation - we are losing Scouting. The quote above stated "Who the BSA admits is less important to me than the core mission of bringing Scouting to the youth in the program." And this is just the tragedy. Scouting will no longer be brought to them, because Scouting is not simply the activities, the achievements, the adventures. It is the boys themselves who for 108 years have been blessed and protected within this inspired program. And now they no longer have it; it belongs now not to them, but to outside powers making changes that the boys cannot control, and cannot stop; and being young, they do not realize fully what is being stolen from them, nor will they be given the power to rescue it themselves. So yes, at the end of next year I will no longer be a part of Scouting. I will continue to deliver the program will all my heart, mind, and strength until then, within my unit, as the walls crash around me. But I will be sad (albeit not surprised) to find that I have stayed in my place, while Scouting has moved to a different world altogether. These decisions have not "overshadowed the core program." I believe they reject it entirely, but will inevitably use it only as long as it is useful to them. I only pray for the sake of the boys who remain that such will last for a small time longer at least. In many units with dedicated, inspired and visionary leaders, it may last much longer. I believe there will be many pockets of successful, true Scouting scattered all over the nation, and I look forward to hearing their stories of success against the waves of compelled change. But I will have other battles to fight then, and other programs to nurture, and other flocks to tend. I hope however that I and those brave units will be able to depend on each other for support and encouragement whenever we may we call upon each other. My prayer is that those future alliances will ever hold strong against whatever troubles may come.

(I have no way of knowing if this message will be posted) Sunday, May 27, 2018 It is with extreme regret that I after 3,600 posts and 6 years I am ended my association with Scouter.com because I disagree with the recent heavy handedness of the Moderators. I have recently been disciplined and my content erased for an unknown specific issue both Kafkaesque and Orwellian. To all the folks I have met over the years and agreed/disagreed with thank you. The discussions here greatly aided my ‘work’ as a scout leader and was personally rewarding. I have personally met a few folks passing through Tampa which was very exciting. (If you are wondering if I am at my breaking point with scouting I honestly don't know. I am going to do some hiking this summer and see if I want to come back to BSA/Scouts USA come the fall. Too many changes and both my Eagle sons/ASM's who are opposites - one progressive and one liberal -are not coming back because of the changes and proposed changes. I have done my best to not influence them one way or the other.) I am really posting this over the poor treatment by one og the moderators and a warning to some that winter is coming. If I offended anyone with posts of poor taste I apologize. Electronic forums are a poor substitute for face-to-face communication and civility. I have usually tried to say the same things I would say around a campfire and have a hard time writing and expressing my ideas online. But if I ever had un-scout- like behavior it is entirely my responsibility. I still do not know what specific breach of decorum caused such extreme unction. I have asked and asked and frankly at this point I no longer care. I think the forum is useful in these times of organizational change, if for no other reasons than to gripe and blow off steam and then hear the reasons from the other guy. However, like many things these days it is getting harder and harder for folks who disagree to have a common stage to talk.(err…like a Forum). IMHO the threads are being overly managed, moved, and policed. It is just not fun and Scouter is becoming like the Webelos 3 of Scouting. I do feel , both on this blog and on the BSA and related social media threads, that dissent of any kind to recent and upcoming BSA policies will be repressed.( banning a person’s speech and removing ALL trace of three thousand postings is not what we teach our scouts in Citizenship; it is over-reach and over-kill.) I believe this attitude will trickle down from Irving to Councils to individual Scout Leaders if they stick their head above their unit. In any case no hard feelings; it has been a good run. I have connected up with many great scouters and scouts here. Friends are free to email me. Good bye and thanks for all the fish. 'John'* aka “Tampa Turtle” Lostluggage2015@gmail.com * my real name, but I'd prefer to not use my full name because I have discussed scouts and scouters the last 7 years. I am sure you understand.

TT: It is sad to see another reasonable voice tire of fighting the distortions. God speed, good scouting (if you so choose), and good fishing! Your avatar modification is priceless. Thanks for all your time. JoeBob

Good for you! If you take this path, it will be a wild ride. Your #1 need will be adults willing to get training, at least one adult dedicated to promotions in your school, scouts (BSA, GS/USA, and other groups) willing to put in the extra effort to form a community of venturers. If you are lucky, your council venturing officers association will be able to provide resources to help you. I also found Woodbadge trained scouters to be helpful in terms of helping me and my youth network. Are you already involved in a BSA unit? That will determine some of the other pitfalls you may face.

Ambiguous pronouns. Does the highlighted him (in the quote box) refer to your son or the 1st year scout?

His LDS granddaughter could always be a Scout. It's called Girl Scouts USA. Yes - interesting. Not every LDS Scouter thinks as I do. Not every non-LDS Scouter thinks as you do.