Dmward

Regardless of what we think an eagle scout should or shouldn't be, the rank is earned by scouts who complete the requirements as written.  There is no arbitrary standard of what is the finest or not, there is a defined standard.  As the scoutmaster, you have outs with requirement 2 and 6, and if you think it is the right thing to do, that is your prerogative.

your somewhat right, some of the requirements are a standard of character... so then  he did not complete all requirements based on the character requirements  

So, a little longer reply here.  Background: In my personal and professional life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.  In my Scouting life, I've had more than a few encounters with drug use.

 

Its easy to let your mind spiral out of control, and worry about a bunch of hypothetical long-term ancillary problems and solutions.

 

I'd start by thinking only about this one kid.  Is he invested in your troop and your program?  Does he attend and participate in meetings and outings?  Does he hold leadership positions, and execute them well?  Ignore the drug issue for a second - just what's your gut feel about this kid?  Is he a good kid with his heart in the right place who needs a swift kick in the pants?  Is he apathetic to scouting and your program, and just doing the bare minimum to get by?  Does he actively cause problems and lead others down a dangerous path?  

 

Step two: talk to the kid as a mentor.  Not as a friend, not as a fact finder, not as a judge. Just talk to the kid, and address the elephant in the room.  Hear him out, ask clarifying questions.  Explain that you can't understand how a Scout would want to earn the Eagle award, but repeatedly make such poor decisions.  Leave it open ended, and see what he says.

 

In my experience, at this point, the problem solves itself in a majority of cases.  If he can't answer, or reveals that he's not really motivated to earn Eagle, then that answers your question.  Those of us with our hearts and souls in the program rightly treat Eagle as a holy grail - but we can forget that not all scouts feel the same way.  If its just not important to him, then it seems like an easy decision for you to make.  As you may have surmised, I can be a bit of a bleeding heart, and am maybe too generous with second chances.  But I'm at least a little practical, and recognize that scouting isn't always what is needed is some of these cases.  I don't treat marijuana possession as an unforgivable sin, but if you want my help, we at least need some common ground to work off of.  If that common ground is the value of Scouting and the importance of the Eagle rank, I can work with that.  But if we don't share those values, I'm not going to force them on you.  And I won't feel the least bit bad when we mutually agree that continuation in Scouting, or in rank advancement, is off the table for you.

 

(The other side of the coin here is, if the scout doesn't value Scouting or Eagle, then don't expect withholding those things to be effective in teaching a lesson.  Losing something you don't value isn't much of an inconvenience.  And may in fact be desirable for him, if his parents are all that are driving his reluctant participation in Scouting anyway.)

 

Now if the scout offers some compelling explanation at this point, it makes your job harder.  It may give you the opportunity to make a very real, very big difference in someone's life.  But its not going to be easy for you.

 

Be careful around pseudo-legal hand waving and such.  FWIW, in my experience, the story still doesn't quite make a ton of sense...  Round here anyway, a 17 year old caught twice with a small amount of pot wouldn't be making waves like this.  Jail time wouldn't be likely.  (Note that the "juvenile system" refers to the court system and processes surrounding it, it doesn't necessarily mean juvenile detention, aka jail).  So either the rumor spill has bent the truth a bit, or there's more going on here than just a bit of pot.

 

And on the topic of the rumor mill, as well as your duty to the other families in the troop.  Rumors are dangerous.  We teach our scouts to act with integrity, think critically, separate fact from conjecture, and be empathetic.  Participating in, or making decisions based on a rumor mill isn't compatible with that good behavior.  Now, I understand that its a real thing, with real implications, and you need to deal with it.

 

What do we train our scouts to do?  Do the right thing, even if the right thing is not the easy thing, or the popular thing.  The young man in question obviously failed at this.  He failed himself, his troop, and in a way, he failed you personally.  Be careful not to give in to peer pressure yourself, and let rumors and threats guide you down the wrong path.

 

Its a crappy situation, and I don't envy you.  But I've been there before, and I'll be there again.  Long story short, I'd encourage you to approach this first from the perspective of how you can effectively mentor this scout, and then balance that with the needs/opinions of the rest of the troop - not the other way around.  I'll leave it at that, and wish you the best of luck.

Thankyou, this is the best incite I've received so far. your right, the information I have is "rumor" and not official. never will be because he is a minor regardless of the source. being caught with "weed" is not a factor, Im glad its not something worse like herion ect, Its the poor choice taking the weed to school knowing the consequences if he gets caught. I don't want to join the Rumor mill that's not who I am. I also have to be very carful with what I say and post.  the jail comment...well that part would be true if one of the charges is "intent to distribute".  again Im not looking at actual crimes or charges may be. I will never know official facts unless the family tells me, highly unlikely... Im looking at the decision he made engaging in criminal behavior, twice. The boy just makes enough meetings and event to stay within our attendance policy.  and did complete leadership requirements needed. nothing above that but again that's all we require. Ive been doing a lot of thinking on of what my recommendation will be but the committee has final say. things like should I allow him to finish his project and not sign his review and let him go appeal and get his eagle without a troop ceremony.... I do struggle with this entire issue, its heartbreaking.....

Here is another factor to think about, the boy will be an adult in 8 months, what will he learn from a pardon and allowing him to be an eagle.  besides all the other factors most of us work for companies that drug test. if any one of us make a bad choice and ingest drugs and fail a drug test once no less twice, do we get a pardon along with a raise? this is also an opportunity to teach someone on the cuff of adulthood a life lesion, the lesion is NOT that its ok to disregard laws and policy's you will still make it to the top......

It sounds like you already know what you will do. My only question, which does not really affect your decision is... How does a troop "own a project"?

there is a eagle project contract for every eagle project. my mind is made up about him not deserving eagle at this time, struggling with allowing him to still be part of our troop. many factors and ramifications apply here  

David CO - I agree that it may not be a small transgression (but we still don't know the specifics surrounding this incident).  The question I have is, what would the scout need to do to deserve forgiveness, to earn back your trust, and to qualify himself for rank advancement?  And how can he do those things once you've expelled him from the troop?

well the boy will be 18 in 8 months, I have 36 other scouts and familys that could possibly be affected by this as well. we all know how much fun dealing with parents can be... my concerns are how many parents will pull there boys out of the troop. is it fair to the ones who did nothing wrong(or at least never got caught) to be removed? eagle is off the table at this point as far as in concerned. forgiving him is easy, swearing in front of my troop and community that the boy is one of finest examples of a scout and honoring him with privilege of eagle scout. that I cant do....

One can forgive him and help him without rewarding him with an Eagle BOR. Most certainly help the kid. Just don't reward him for twice violating the law, his Oath and the many Scout Laws.

I agree, but I aslo have 36 other concerned scouts and parents to think about as well.

Ask yourself this question:  What requirement did the scout fail to complete?

 

2: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if employed), and two other references.

 

I like to look at it his way, many of the scouts we have don't live the scout oath and law 24/7/365, and neither do us adults.  The requirement doesn't say that you must never not demonstrate scout spirt by violating a point of the scout oath and scout law.

 

6: While a Life Scout, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

I suppose you could just refuse to do a scoutmaster conference, if you think that is the right thing to do.  I don't think I would ever deny a scout a scoutmaster conference if I were a scoutmaster.

 

 

I always turn back to what the requirements say, not what I think.  I think drug use is a terrible decision and is very destructive to one's self and the community at large.  Now, there are those that disagree with me that a little weed or a little coke never hurt anybody, and, there might be some truth to that statement, but pretty much everyone with a drug addiction problem starts with a little of this and a little of that.

 

One of these days, I will be a scoutmaster, and I hope I never have to deal with this situation.

 

The bottom line is if you don't sign it, an appeal will most likely be accepted if he has done all of the merit badges and can show some documentation on his project.

his eagle project is not complete, if the decision is made to remove to boy from the troop he can not complete the project. the troop owns the project and will take it over. he can move on to another troop and still get his eagle but he will be 18 in 8 months. If he is found guilty in a court of law of criminal behavior it then becomes a council issue and the boy will be banned from boyscouts 

Ask yourself this question:  What requirement did the scout fail to complete?

 

2: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout Spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious (if not affiliated with an organized religion, then the parent or guardian provides this reference), educational, employer (if employed), and two other references.

 

I like to look at it his way, many of the scouts we have don't live the scout oath and law 24/7/365, and neither do us adults.  The requirement doesn't say that you must never not demonstrate scout spirt by violating a point of the scout oath and scout law.

 

6: While a Life Scout, participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

I suppose you could just refuse to do a scoutmaster conference, if you think that is the right thing to do.  I don't think I would ever deny a scout a scoutmaster conference if I were a scoutmaster.

 

 

I always turn back to what the requirements say, not what I think.  I think drug use is a terrible decision and is very destructive to one's self and the community at large.  Now, there are those that disagree with me that a little weed or a little coke never hurt anybody, and, there might be some truth to that statement, but pretty much everyone with a drug addiction problem starts with a little of this and a little of that.

 

One of these days, I will be a scoutmaster, and I hope I never have to deal with this situation.

 

The bottom line is if you don't sign it, an appeal will most likely be accepted if he has done all of the merit badges and can show some documentation on his project.

its so much more than requirements at this point. or recreational use of pot. he made a "mistake and was caught in school with weed, he was then mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster. did he learn from that??? No, he repeated the exact same negative behavior.  the boy is 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts and parents to worry about. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest in scouting. Can I honestly stand infront of my troop and community and say this boy is one of the finest examples of boy scouts and deserve to be part of this elite group. or by allowing this behavior am I smacking every eagle scout in the face......

Bottom line is, the Scout does not get an Eagle Board of Review without your endorsement.  You as Unit Leader have to sign your name on the Eagle Application, as does the Unit Committee Chair. Unless he appeals to Council, that is.  I would go with my gut.  I would be sympathetic and try to get him help and support.  But Eagle Scout is now off the radar.  He had a chance to repent and go down a different path.  He chose not to.  His choice, not yours.  If you relent and turn a blind eye, you are making a mockery of the Eagle Award and everyone, down to the youngest Tenderfoot, will get a clear message.

I completely agree

Community service does not do much to fix these problems. In fact, I've known quite a few "druggies" (as some have called them), who joyfully volunteer for this stuff.

 

Now if in the process of that service, someone gets paired up with a mentor (e.g. a NA sponsor) who will be on that person like white on rice, and there is a 360 evaluation of home, social relationships, work. and school environments over an extended period of time ... then that changes the landscape.

 

So, the boy did not give up his "someone".

I've had scouts with discipline issues and they often pointed to doing something "for their friends".

To which my reply is "You either lead your friends, or follow them. One will help you soar, the other will drag you down."

 

In a sense, the boy is failing to show leadership in his project, because he's choosing to be led by others. Thus, from an Eagle scout's perspective, this isn't about drug possession. This is about "giving up command of one's vessel" (a lesson learned from Seabase's Captain Steve). He needs to fend off the mutineers whom he's called friends or associates, hire a loyal crew, commit to them, set new coarse, and catch a wholesome wind.

 

Some back-slidden 17.5 year-olds can take back command of their own vessel in time to rightly be awarded Eagle. Many will find themselves unworthy. There is no way to tell which you scout is from this side of the internet, but I can say this: being found unworthy is sometimes the best gift a fellow can get.

Thankyou

What's his level of motivation in attempting to earn Eagle?

 

I agree completely that his behavior is not compatible with becoming an Eagle Scout.  I wonder if he actually cares?

 I wonder the same, his father and brother are eagle scouts and the father seems to be driving him.

Despite the circumstances, welcome to the forum.

 

What help is your scout receiving? Help your scout first!

I do not know what help outside of scouts he is getting, the parents were very hostile during the first offense and we had to ban the father from scout activates. I do not hold or judge any scout based on parents behaviors. He was mentored and disciplined by the scoutmaster for the first offence. he repeated the exact same offence, "caught with pot at school"... he will be 18 in 8 months. I also have 36 other scouts to worry about as well. an eagle scout is a elite group of the finest examples of a scout..... is he one of the finest examples???  does he deserve to be part of this elite group .  The foremost responsibility of an Eagle Scout is to live with HONOR

So the drug user gets empathy. The Eagle candidate who may have lacked leadership gets crucified? I swear.

Im not looking to crucify or give empathy... Im all about doing the right thing for troop.  few fasts, the boy will be 18 in 8 months. second time getting caught with pot in school while being a scout... he was mentored and disciplined for the first time. My committee majority are educational executives within the school district and know the facts. they cant disclose one word but do have the vote that I don't have.all I can do is make a recommendation. so im struggling with, can I stand in front of the community and swear this boy deserves to be eagle.....   is that a slap in the face to all eaglescouts? will scout parents disagree and pull their boys out....who looses if that happens....  the boy repeated the same illegal behavior twice.... in school....  im getting calls from concerened parents who hear rumors now and are concerned for their boys..... im just listening to their concerns and my comment is the same to all parents calling me. " I will not entertaining any rumors, especially rumors about a minor child. The troop will investigate these allegations and take appropriate action if necessary" and I leave it at that. 

Its worth asking the scout, in a non-judgmental way, why he has repeatedly chosen to use illegal drugs.  Not because he may have a good excuse (I'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason that would excuse a youth making this choice) - but because it may reveal deeper, more important issues that might need to be addressed.  A teenager using pot recreationally with friends is a different situation from crude attempts at self medication for depression or other mental illness.  It's most likely to be the former - but as an advocate for these youth, its at least worth having the discussion.  Approaching it from a standpoint of true concern and free of judgement is also a good way to build trust and rapport with the young man.

I did leave a lot of facts out of my original post. it was Pot, We did sit with him the first time, excuse then was " I was holding it for someone"  He was disciplined for the first offence. the boy also has 8 months until his 18 birthday

One also has to accept the idea that one is innocent until proven guilty.  There seems to be a lot of conclusion jumping on limited information. 

No conclusion jumping here, facts only..... and if he is/was found guilty in a court then the issue becomes a council issue and the scout will be banned from scouting. at the troop level we can only remove him from our troop and he can still join another troop

Change the situation from kid arrested twice for drugs to adult arrested twice for DWI. Does he remain SM and drive your kids?

Exactly!!

I'm curious, do you think you catch every scout who's guilty, or is getting caught the real transgression?

First, I do not look to "catch any scout" whos guilty of anything. that's not why I am involved in scouting and if that was the case id quit right now. getting caught twice with weed in school while a scout is the real transgression. The first offense we worked with him and he was disciplined, 40 hours community service for the church we meet at. this is his second offence.....  

@Dmward Welcome to the forum.

 

 

Lots of advice, but I need more information on what's going on.

 

Second offense... could be a deal breaker for me. People learn from past mistakes, obviously this boy hasn't.

 

What drugs? Prescription? marijuana? Did he buy drugs or did he steal from someone's medicine cabinet? Under-aged youth in possession of tobacco or alcohol can be construed as possession of illegal drugs.

 

Is he a user or a dealer?

 

One does not walk in and take over as SM from off the street. How long have you known this boy?

 

Way too many questions to toss out advice.

I do not know what or how much drugs he was caught with, I do know his first offence was pot. The previous scoutmaster did offer him a second chance and was disciplined and had to do service hours on a project chosen by the scout master. I was told by school officials "off the record" that he was arrested at school and what he was caught with is very serious and will be charged with some serious charges that carry mandatory jail time, in his case juvenile detention When the first occurrence happened the scoutmaster did approach the parents to discuss and the father became very hostile and angry and was banned from attend any and all scout functions. approaching the parents may not be an option in this case. I do not judge a child by his parents actions. I do not know if he is just a user or a dealer. has we all know its practically imposable to get information on a miner unless its your own child. Ive known the boy for the past 4 years, Ive been a adult leader for over 10 years, 2 years as a den leader,3 years as assistant cubmaster, 4 years as asm, and a month as scoutmaster.

Hello all, I just took over as scoutmaster a month ago. I have a scout midway into his eagle project. I was just informed that today in school this scout was caught  with illegal drugs. while liking into the details I have learned that this is the second time in 4 years that this boy was caught in school with illegal drugs. so my question is how would you handle this issue if it was one of your scouts? I do know how I feel about it and what actions I want to take however im open to incite on how to handle this. Thank you!!