troopmom

Very insightful. I feel the same way in that the good kids shouldn't be expected to hang around bad behavior. However, the scariest part is that the boy is very popular at school. It is sad to see this quantity of youth attracted to such delinquent behavior. He is a likeable kid who does stupid things.

Since I first posted, the outcome (I think) is that the boy is going to leave the Troop. We have had two of the sessions at the fire dept. given by a fireman who used to be a SM. Wasn't that a Godsend. The boy attended one session and had had surgury a few days before the other but was given paperwork that he could do to make it up. We have a video to watch left, but the boy has stopped coming so assume his family has decided to stick to their guns and protest. I am conflicted about this as I feel Alpha is correct in that he needs to form a responsible relationship. I'm not sure that the Troop is the best place for that though since the other boys may follow his lead. I guess I'll just have to have faith and listen to my little birdy.

Yes this forum is very helpful. Y'all as a whole give me the courage to stand firm with my convictions and stick to BSA policy. It's nice to have old timers tell you their opinion (especially when it agrees with yours).

The suggestion about the patrol outing is very helpful. I never thought of that as being an alternative. Is it really ok for the Patrol to go with only one or no adult? Are there any restictions such as no canoe trips(safety afloat)?

Thank you all so much for giving me a place to vent. How much is the fee here anyway?

THANK YOU. Those are my sentiments exactly.

Okay guys, I'm not talking about menu planning. I'm talking about things like climbing equip. If I let my son on his own, WITHOUT guidance be responsible for rounding up climbing equip. he would get rope from Home Depot. This is where I'm coming from. The past 3 or so trips have been cancelled because "the boys didn't plan it out all of the way." I think that if the boys don't have it planned out then an adult should notice that they may not know how and work with them. My theory is first show them how, then watch them do it, then let them do it on their own. HOWEVER, we had a 50 miler planned down a calm river the scoutmaster had said he could get canoes, campsites planned out, etc. The only problem was not enough adults to go. I don't think 13-15 year old boys can tell adults that they should be sacrificing a little. However, again, when it came down to the wire and they asked about details they were are covered except adults and the trip got cancelled. But the boys got a lecture about how it's their troop and the have to plan for the trips if they don't plan, no trip. The trip was planned for but the parents didn't fulfill their end.

Short and sweet---whose RESPONSIBILITY is it for the details. I agree with everything BP said but do you cancel the trip because the plans are lacking or is it the adults responsibility to make sure it gets done through guidance if neccessary. Just letting them plan it has gotten the last three trips cancelled. I think its time for a little showing. With my own, we call together or visit a park ranger together or look up on the computer together until they understand what to ask or look for. I think we adults ( are responsible for making sure the same guidance gets done at the Troop.

Oh my gosh this sounds whiney but I firmly believe in show, watch, leave alone but get told "it's the boys troop" even when they are repeatedly failing. Again, who is RESPONSIBLE for making SURE that the details are covered?

I'm all for learn by experience. I've let a patrol go hungry for a hour or so past breakfast when the PL didn't get the menu straight but they apparently aren't capable of this much planning yet.

Yes, Scouting for Boys was BP's but it was a set of 5 or 6 small books. I lent mine out so I can't check to see if one of those has a similar title. I'm searching now. I bought when Scouter.com had a store.

I am confused about the gray line between boy and adult responsibilities in the Troop. For example, when we plan a campout I recall reading that the boys are to pick where they want to go and what topics they want to cover on the campout but the committee then has to consider it for approval and therefore is responsible for the finances, travel logistics, parent/leadership participation, and supplies(like climbing equipment for a climbing trip). I often butt heads with other adults about this because the boys can't be responsible for the regs. covered in the G2SS. Am I wrong; are the boys supposed to be responsible for everything? I know I read it somewhere that the boys come up with ideas and program but pass off to committee for final logistics.

That's great. In our area Home Depot will donate for Eagle etc.. I wasn't thinking, again. However, REI said they won't give to Scouts when they were asked for a larger donation in our local area. My point is still---if we except sponsorship from a corporation and another public group tightens the screws on the corporation because they donate to BSA, wouldn't we(BSA)then feel the pressure to make exception to our policy, what ever the case may be.(This message has been edited by troopmom)

I've linked it to most of the committee and will have copies for dad. CHECK!

Okay here goes, open your shirt. Just kidding actually I'm somewhere in the middle. My oldest son could have been an Eagle by 13 but he couldn't do what he wanted and lost his drive. He has found a similar project now and wants it done yesterday. He is now 15, 16 in Jan. He has always been a model Scout but didn't know how to handle rejection. There is your not mature. I also have a 13, 14 in Oct. who found a project at the same place, my younger sons' school. He will finish it because they need it done and he is committed to do it now. He is a typical loses interest child but I don't think that will change with age as I can be the same way. I will not do it for him however I will nag him because the School is dependant on him now. Both of these children had a goal to make it to Eagle before 13 but they couldn't do it and I didn't do it for them.

On the other side, have a parent who is a perfectionist and brags all the time how his son will be Eagle by 13. Junior isn'teven life rank yet but dad knows he'll make it? He bragged about it to the Camp director at summercamp. The Director was an old salt though who informed him that 13 is too young, not mature enough, but he supports the program etc.. Now the dad says 13 is too young, not mature enough. I kinda backed up what director said with they are too young to call the contacts and get scouts to listen(leadership) etc. I think he'll back off of his son now but he was definately going down the road of "If he can't do it I'll do it for him so I have an Eagle at thirteen."

Please note that 2 of my 3 sons that are in the Troop who crossed over after one year of WEBELOS as soon as they were 10 1/2 (AOL requirement) because it was easier for me and them. They were already going to all of the Scout activities including Summercamp so they could begin earning awards for stuff they were doing. Sometimes cubs are boring as they are resticted in their activities so be careful when assuming that Scouts that crossover at 10 1/2 careful do so because of pushy parents.

I don't know if I was helpful or not. I do sit on the Eagle board and I can tell you that we are careful in approving projects. We look at how knowledable the scout seems on the project. If he is clueless then chances are someone is doing it for him. Seems once you approve his project even if you don't pass him, he can appeal and get Eagle. Gotta go computer is freezing up.

I agree with NO sponsership because it potentially ties our hands. Currently we are a private org.. If we take sponsership then we are beholden to the sponsers who are also beholden to others groups--ie,st REI and Home Depot who support gays and therefore won't donate to us. If we used Galyans and Lowe's who currently do support Scouting, but then the gay rights groups throw a hissie, will we be forced to change our private policy? To much obligation for me.

He's not an ASM, just a dad/committee member. Thank y'all for the support. It let's me and others on the committee know that we are not off base, thus feeling firm in our decision.

Two of my kids that are old enough are doing it, but just starting. It gives them credit for stuff they already do.

Here is a site that had a multitude of info.. We used it to teach LNT theme and the boys were captivated while we talked about smearing. If you don't know what that is then this site is for you.

http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/index.shtml

We also used it for teaching Tracking/Stalking. Look under natural history on the menu.(This message has been edited by troopmom)

This year a camp where my son is on staff used two rifles and it was pleanty loud. Made me jump everytime.

SharonNC, no, the dadwas not there. and when the Committee suggested probation consiting of the offenders' parents being required to come on campouts for a period of time, he pitched a fit informing us that we "can't make parents go on campouts." He isn't much for spending time on campouts apparently, not one yet. I don't think it would help though, this past weekend junior broke his foot climbing on a fence a church that he had been told not to climb on. I would have been totally embarassed but dad talked openly about it to everyone. I too am very confused at the behavior.

About the MB, a boy came up with the idea and most of us feel it is fair as some of the scouts were only involved by knowing and not saying. Since we are not sure who did what when and to what extent, everyone gets the same. The way we felt is that we will show how stupid you were and what the consequence could have been. If you continue to be stupid you won't be a happy camper and may be gone depending on what the policy we come up with says. Personally, I hope he is goes.

Just so everyone knows, at the Troop we are calling it a "training opportunity". Would y'all have responded better to "proper training opportunity" or "proper punishment"? I was just marketing. However, the dad does say this is not the proper punisment to which we reply, it is a training op. But thank you for the thought.

I have advocated having a written discipline policy for a long time although most of our problems were no more than being obnoxious at Troop meetings. This was the proverbial straw for our camel and we are currently writting a policy.(This message has been edited by troopmom)

sparkie

That will part of the training session provided.I agree this boy may not learn and he will be kicked eventually but the others who were involved will learn how stupid they were and get a MB, too.

Thank you for your reply, Unfortunately he was at the committe meeting when we discussed for an hour and a half the instructional opportunity as we have called it. We explained how a boy came up with the idea, the PLC approved and then we voted on it and now the committee approves. He argued during the whole discussion time that no Troop would use a MB this way. He was told that that is what we are going to vote on and that we feel that if a scout and his family don't feel that the deed was dangeous enough to require intense fire education, at least more intense than firem'nchit, then we don't need that type of liability. This father flat out said that scouts play with fire that's just what they do. Now he is trying to convince everyone that they should change their mind to change the majority also that it shouldn't have been a committee vote but only up to the Scoutmaster who currently is the substituing weak SM whose son is friends with the firestarter.

Thank you all for your reply. Slont, I know what you are talking about with pencil-whipping MBCs but in this case we have done what you're talking about. We have set up a 3-hour session with a fireman who happens to be a Webelos den leader in my pack and is signed up as a MBC now. The session is on Troop night, the firestation is right next door, and this guy is great with kids. He also intends to show pictures or get a burn victim.

Fat old guy, I also can see how the no-show parents could cause trouble and we may need to institute that policy although we don't have it now and this dad is trying to use it to overrule our vote(although I think we still have a majority). But I know most of the parents that dropoff and pick-up and they would approve.

Ed, I agree with you also, he should go if he doesn't agree. However again, his son is one of those guys who's doesn't want to be in scouts but dad is gonna make him an eagle. I sit on eagle boards and just with the kids stature, he isn't Eagle material(pants down, drug slur etc). You're right he is more friend than dad but he feels we weren't supervising enough. so we told he should come if he wants someone to follow his kid to class to make sure the fire antics don't occur. One incident happened while we were in adult training(during class time and another was while we were cooking hobo meals when I had no clue that they were behind a tent and they were that un-TRUSTWORTHY. During classtime, I'm not following 25 boys to class. I agree he should go, I wish he would(This message has been edited by troopmom)

I forgot to add the newest saga. some are saying the SM is responsible for discipline not the committee so we should wait for him to return on the 17th of Aug.. Some of us are afraid that he will waiver and say that they don't have to do the training. I know COR is final. he used to be COR and I'm not sure if he is currently. I feel that if we tell the boys one thing then someone else comes and changes it by whining enough, we have done a diservice. I hope someone can help.(This message has been edited by troopmom)

I have been involved in our Troop for 5 years and have been to the last four summercamps. This year at camp we had 25 boys and 4 adults with me acting as leader as I have for the past 3 years. let me state that we have never had dangerous problems so this is new to me.We have had a weak SM and now we have a new one but he had to go out of town. He also has a "boys will be boys" attitude though.

okay here's the incident. This year we had some new boys go with us and lighting ones arm on fire and throwing paperballs on fire during class became the cool thing to do. These new boys were at the crux but almost 1/2 of the boys were involved with varying degrees. Many of us felt that we would like to see the 2 new families leave because we don't need that behavior spreading through the Troop.

One of the boys(not one of the new ones) thought that earning the Fire Safety merit badge would be a good as well as educational punishment. It was voted on at committee that all involved must finish the MB by the time the Troop training is over or not participate in the Troop until it is complete. The 2 new families feel that we are overreacting and they are causing a problem. one dad stating his son will not do it because we shouldn't be using a MB in this way. Now this Dad is talking in secret little groups has had the weak SM's (He's filling in while the Sm is out of town) son call a meeting of patrol leaders on Sat. with an hours notice to try to pursuade the boys that this is a bad idea when they had thought it fair at Monday's PLC. this dad is checking to see who is listed as committee members to see who's vote won't count in his opinion. We have always allowed any interested parent to have a vote. Right now there is a whole behind the scenes pursuation game going on when most of feel that it was voted on and that is what he will have to live with. All his son has to do is earn a MB that will eduacate him on the danger. We suggested maybe the more involved scouts be placed on probation and parents be required to go on the camping trips with Junior. This same dad informed us that we couldn't force parents to go etc.

Short and sweet-- Dangerous behavior--liability---training with pos. reinforcement--non-compliance--leave troop--committee votes yea--dad feels junior should just lose his firm'nchit---much manipulation. NOW WHAT?

I'm wondering

(This message has been edited by troopmom)(This message has been edited by troopmom)