Blaze66

am I here

am I here

Did anyone else here see this article at Fox News? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119658,00.html

Make sure you copy and paste the whole address, for some reason the post wouldn't include the whole thing in the link.(This message has been edited by Blaze66)

Ok,reluctantly, because I was so chastized during the original post of this thread I am back again. But this time only to give everyone an update on the status of our pack. No wait, Our CHARTER ORGANIZATION'S PACK!

Just a little background to those who didn't catch the original post. I am with a pack that has three leaders who have been with the pack over 8 years and are ready to leave and no new leadership has come foward in the past few years to step in and keep the pack going. We went to our COR and he talked to the CO who did not have any advise or help for us. We then went to our DE, who basically said, you have a problem I will see what I can do to help you but it will have to wait till this capital fund raising deal is over with, I will get back to you. Still no word back from him and in fact I saw him over the weekend and gave him the same update I am about to give you and he had to think for like 5 minutes before he remembered me or what our problem was. Anyway back to the update... Finally last week we called a special meeting of all the parents in the pack. Just to show you how little the parents participate, we only had about half of the boys parents show up. None the less, I sat down with them and explained the situation that these three leaders were leaving and that if they wanted to keep the pack alive, it was their turn to step up to the plate. After about 10 minutes of sitting there in silence with everyone's mouth gapped open in disbelief, we actually had one mother to say she would become a den leader, and another to say she would consider being a tiger leader. So now all we need is one more to step in and we will have enough leaders to keep things rolling. One of our existing leaders who isnt leaving at this time said he would step up as CM. I left the meeting open ended, telling the parents that we would stay on through September to help them in anyway they needed and to get them through roundup.

I don't know how they hid them at that camporee, but finding geocaches is not as simple as you might think. I participate in geocaching as a sport. True some are relatively easy to find, but if you want a real challenge find the micro and mini caches! If you don't know alot about geocaching as a sport go to www.geocaching.com

I know it's too late to get in this year, we are going to put in for next year (2005) in July. We picked this camp for several reasons. First we liked the merit badge offerings. They have alot that weren't offered at some of the other camps close by. Second it's in the mountains. It's a whole lot cooler there in mid June that it is the other places we have been going. Anyway we have made up our mind to go there next summer, we just want some tips and pointers of how it is at camp.

Has anyone here been to Camp Old Indian in the Blue Ridge Council? We tried to get out troop in there this summer, but they were full the week we wanted to go, so we are shooting for next summer already. What I am trying to find out is some tips... best campsite, closest campsite to dinning hall, whats the food like, how was the staff to work with, etc...

When I say made up I mean more like what Shell is talking about. You have to twist someone's arm or you have to use one person with many hats. If you thought I ment we just pulled a name out of thin air and wrote it down, thats not the case. It's just we have so few people step up to the plate that we have to grab people from the back pew and twist their arm to get them to register in the first place, but usually they are only figure heads because if you have to twist someone's arm to do something they really aren't going to be good leaders. They are more followers... which is not what you want in scouting. But then again like I said you do what ever you have to do with what you have to make it work for the boys.

Great response foto! At least someone understands the reality of things and doesn't try to beat you to death with so called facts and figures that are of questionable origin. I know as bob says you have to list people to re charter every year, but who hasn't put people on their charter in two hat positions or grabbed someone out of the blue just for a name because you don't have anyone else. It's reality! So sure national is going to reflect that every pack and troop has a committie and cc and cor and co, but in reality they aren't always there! So you do what you have to do for the kids!

Yes we have mosquitoes too but what we use is Permethrin. Get some and treat all your camping gear including your clothing as directed. It works great for Mosquitos, Chiggers, Mites and Ticks. One treatment lasts two weeks in continuous use. If you use it, you won't need much deet.

I think you miss understand the question. The question is not how many miles a day can the boys do, ours have easily done anywhere from 8 to 14 miles a day. The question is does BSA policy limit daily mileage or suggest a daily mileage?

Most tents now days come with or you can buy seperately a "footprint" which is basically some really heavy nylon with a water proof coating. It is real light and usually fits exactly the size of your tent. That's what I use on all three of my tents. If you can't find one to fit, check out REI or Campmor. Sometimes you can find footprints or ground cloths for different tents on clearance. They might not fit your tent exactly but they are good alternatives. In a real pinch use 6 mil plastic. It doesn't fold or roll real well but it works.

eisely, I had that same problem with the first led head lamp I bought. I had a Petzl Tikka and I loved it, but the first time I really needed it for night time navigation, it was all but useless. SO when I got back home I bought a Petzl MYO. Best of both worlds. You get the halogen main light for navigation and wide area flood, and it has the three led task light for reading, cooking general around camp stuff. It's like American Express, I never leave home without it!

Ok here is one for all our scouting friends who love to quote BSA regulations.

Where in BSA policy does it limit or suggest mileage per day, for hikes and backpacking trips? If there is a limit what is it?

If you have never tried it before let me give you a couple of pointers from experience. One make sure you have a good ground cloth. Just as in a tent, that vapor barrier between you and the ground is real important. Second, keep it simple. Either pitch your tarp using the old ridgeline between two trees with a stake on each corner or do the old army pup tent style with two staves. Once you have done it a few times then you can experiment with exotic tarp setups. These two will keep you fairly dry if you have a shower and will stand up in the wind with no problems. If you want some other ideas for pitching tarps go to this website. http://www.cloudwalkersatpage.com/page027.html Cloudwalker uses the Campmor trekkers tarp for these setups but I use a Kelty Noah's tarp. Oh yeah, people get into long discussions about what kind of tarp to use and how to pitch it. Those of us in the Tarp community are just as defensive about our tarps and setup as people with Tents! LOL

Hope you have fun on your first try, who knows you might even be a convert after this trip! Let me know how it goes.

About 85% of the camping our Troop does is Backpacking. Three years ago we were working on emergency preparedness merit badge and one of the things we did was have the boys drop the tents and make their own shelter out of painter's plastic. To this point now, the boys had been carrying the tents backpacking by splitting the weight up between two campers. Well the boys loved it. Thought it was fun and liked not having the extra weight. So after that slowly the boys started asking could they use tarps, and started dropping their tents all together. Now thats almost exclusively what we use with the exception of car camping events. You have to remember something though, we live in the Carolina's. We only backpack from mid October through the end of April. So bugs aren't an issue. The few times during the summer months that we aren't car camping or at summer camp, we do canoe trips and depending on the weather we may tarp or tent.(This message has been edited by Blaze66)

With the exception of District and Council Camporees, our Troop quit using tents about three years ago. The ones we do use for the boys (when we use them) are the Eureka Apex that they sold at the scout shop until about two years ago when they changed their style from the full rain fly to the partial one. We didn't buy ours from the scout shop though, we got them from Campmor and about a 20% savings. Leaders use their own tents of various styles.

I just looked at that Eureka Assault. It's basically the same design as my North Face Stratos with the exception of the zip out panels in mine. You will love it!

I am a firm beliver in you get what you pay for when it comes to tents. I have tried all kinds and the best tents I ever purchased were the two North Face ones I have now. I have been camping in them with people that had lesser tents and never, NEVER got wet. We went camping three years ago for a week and it rained 4 of the 7 days we were there and I stayed dry where others with me had to constantly go to the laundry mat to dry things out.

If you want a great economical tent for scouts that looks great, consider buying the North Face Pebble. It's a two man free standing simmilar to the old Eureka Timberline. Has two pole setup and a full fly. Only down side to it is, it has mesh pannels on the tent walls and the boys would have to be careful. But its no different than the big mesh doors on the APEX Extreme or the Venture. Also if you get them from Campmor, they are $89 each which is comparable in price to the Apex, plus you can get a discount off that if you pay by troop check and use their scouting discount program.(This message has been edited by Blaze66)

I don't look for pats on the bach either. Not looking one now. I dont really care who notices what I do because I don't do it to impress anyone or to draw attention to myself. I started out doing scouts for the same reason you did shell, because I wanted to make it the best experience I could for my son.

And I think everyone still kind of misses the point of the original question. I am not looking a pat on the back, or someone to tell me its ok to move on. We are just in a situation like I explained where we want to go and the CO won't do anything to help out and all our efforts to bring in new leadership to take over have pretty much washed up. We just want to make sure when we go that there is some way we can try and help keep the boys we have in the pack now in scouting!

So right or wrong this is what we decided Tuesday night. We are going to talk to the DE again next month at round table (in like two weeks). We are going to finish out the rest of our year which ends in May. Then we are going to do our three summer time activities. If by the end of the summer the DE has not said anything came over and tried to talk with the CO with us to work anything out and just pretty much done what he has done so far which is nothing... Then we are going to go talk to the other CM's in the area let them know what is going on then have a meeting with our scout parents and suggest that the boys in our pack go visit other area packs and see if they would be interested in transfering.

Right or wrong there it is.

Maybe I wasn't real clear in the beginning when I started this thread, or maybe I left out things that I didn't feel were important to the question. So here is the rest of the story, and get out the popcorn because it's a long one!

I started my ADULT scouting when my son joined Tigers in this same pack. When we came in there were 4 leaders in the whole pack. That included our present COR who was also the Webelos leader, our former CM who was also running the Wolf den and two other den leaders. That was it! Four people running the pack. Now sure there were other people listed on the charter but where they were or who they were I haven't got a clue. It was not until my son became a Bear that I got involved in any way in the leadership of the pack. The CM at the time came to me and said will you be our CC and at first I said no but then she said well all you have to do is sign some papers once in a while for advancement and thats it. Sorry folks when your a Cub Scout you don't always realize what the positions in scouting are really suppose to do so it goes for new or just a couple of years into scouting parents! It wasn't until I took over as CC and went to my first training that I realized how the leadership in the pack was really suppose to be set up! So after training, I tried, to get things organized in the pack the way they were suppose to be. Put together a committie, started going to round table, met regularly with the COR and tried my best to do everything that was expected of a CC. Well the CM we had at the time, she kept bucking the system. Kept telling me we didn't need all this and things were running just fine before and it was just other hands to put in the pot so to speak.

Then the next year, my sons first in Webelos, the former Webelos leader, who also was the COR, decided he didn't want to be a den leader anymore. So I was like great! Here is a chance for me to get out of this CC stuff and maybe try a hand at Webelos. So I made the move. Because honestly at the time, I had no intention of staying with the Pack as long as I have. I was just moving along with my son, trying to support him and help out the pack at the same time while he was moving through. Once he crossed over to Boy Scouts I was leaving the pack too!

Well first sign of trouble I noticed was when they rechartered I was still listed as the CC which I had resigned from. Then the next kind of kink that was thrown into things was unexpectantly a friend of my wife's becomes a Tiger Den leader and asks my wife if she will help her out as an assistant, which she did. Then about two months into a new year the friend leaves and dumps everything on my wife! Well she finished the year out and loved it so much she decided she wanted to do wolves the next year. Well then all just goes kinda par for the next year and then my son crosses over. Well it was my full intention to leave, and I made my intentions known to everyone. They found a new Webelos leader who once he found out what all he had to do, came back to me and asked if I would be his assistant and kind of mentor him through getting the next year's Webelos II group to AOL before I really left. So I very reluctantly agreed. He was doing a fine job and I stayed way in the background just giving him advise when he asked for it. Then AOL got here for the Webelos II and this guy up and leaves. He got a new job and his hours changed and so he didn't want any responsibilities outside work to deal with. Then the pack was in a bind because they asked two other parents to come foward and help out but they declined. So they came back to me and asked me if I would consider staying on through the rest of the year. Again, I reluctantly said yes.

So everything is still going kind of good, till the end of the year and then out of the blue the CM says she has had enough and is leaving. Well that threw us for a curve, because we were at a shortage of leaders in the pack to begin with and none of the leaders we had wanted the job of CM. So we just went through the summer months without a CM, hoping that sometime before the new year began we would either have someone step foward or during round up we would snag some new leadership blood and free up one of our leaders to at least be acting CM.

Well sure enough roundup was great! Through some hard planning and really getting out into the schools before hand we had a record year as far as new scout signups. We got some great people in too. Right off the bat we spotted some potental leaders. About a month after they had been there we approached 6 parents all seperately and asked them to consider becoming leaders in the pack. All but one accepted, but we were still without a CM. At our next leaders meeting we invited all the new parents whom we had talked too, to attend. During the meeting we explained to them everything I just told you above about the CM and that we needed one. Well none wanted to jump that deep into the water that quick, which honestly they shouldn't have had to do anyway, they just didn't know enough about scouting yet to get that involved. So after about a three hour meeting, and bouncing ideas around the room, a couple of the other leaders asked my wife why she wouldn't do it. She clearly had the drive and the know how. And even though she had only been in scouting for two years, she had brought some new fresh ideas to the pack that really boosted the program. Well at first she flat out said no, and basically so did I because I knew if she took over I would never get out! Then after about two weeks of tossing over it, she decided that if they would help her out so she could go back and be a Tiger Cub coach too, that she would do it. Thus sealed our fate...

Of that 5 out of 6 new leaders, one wanted to do Webelos so I was like YES im gona get out, but he asked me if I would stay AGAIN through AOL so he could get up to speed. For a third time, I reluctantly said yes. Now definately by this time I am clearly not thinking about myself because if I were, I would have left a long time ago! But being so close to the pack for so long, I didn't want to dissapoint the boys which was the only concern I really had. Well not long after these new leaders started, trouble began. The new Wolf leader, who said he was an Eagle Scout, he just stopped comming one night. No phone call, no warning, no nothing... just didn't show up. We tried to call and his phone had been disconnected. Called his work and no one there knew where he was either. So that threw us in a small crisis because we didn't have anyone to run the den meetings. Thank God for one of our Den Cheifs and a Parent or it would have really been a disaster. The parent stepped up and said he would take over as long as we left the den cheif with him to help out. So were off and running again. Not quite... then that parent's work hours changed. So he wasn't getting to the meetings till about mid way through them. Finally it ended up one of the other parent's and the Den Cheif finished out the year, but that other parent would not take on a leadership role other than what they had done to help out.

Then real trouble began. Right after AOL, the new Webelos leader gets kind of ticked off because he came in expecting more camping than the pack was doing. Him and one of the other den leaders decided they wanted to do DEN CAMPING as I talked about in another thread. Well sure Webelos can do camping as a den, but this guy wanted them to do backpacking and primative camping. Well we explained to them that Webelos could camp as a den, but the other den couldn't and that their overnighters would have to be some kind of family car type camping because you just don't take Webelos on High Adventure type camping trips. Well he got ticked off. Said he joined scouting with his son to do some real camping and if all the pack was going to do was car camping then he wasn't staying around. So he left, and so did the other den leader we had just aquired, plus two months later this guy's wife, who was an assistant in Tiger Cubs and we had been eyeing her to take over one of the dens next year.. She leaves too without a reason given but I am sure it was from pressure at home. So now were back in basically the same boat we were right after the CM said she was leaving. Only saving grace was the other two new leaders we had.

Plus while all this is going on, the largest business in town, employing over 1500, shuts down because it was moving operations to Mexico. The town goes into a depression, houses go up for sale left and right and people start moving. Our pack went from about 40 down to 15 in six months. We had a spring roundup, first one ever, to try and get new boys in before Day Camp started in the summer and gained 2 boys. Fall round up we only got 3 new scouts. Spring round up the following year we got 1 new one and fall of last year we got no new scouts. All the while other scouts were moving away or crossing over. This year we have 14 boys. It was depressing to say the least.

Last year we thought we had a solution to the whole situation because a pack in the next town over was having growing pains and half of the people there wanted to split off. At a round table one night I suggested to the ACM of the busting pack that he come over to our pack and make a new home and then they would win and so would we (leaders that wanted to get out that is). And after he came and met with the COR and a few others he had almost decided to do that, but then.... Thanks to our DE, who gets paid based on number of boys and units in his district, talks them into starting a NEW pack in the town they were currently in. Then shortly after that he (DE) gets moved from our district to a larger district.

So as you can see alot is going on in the background here. Now were up to this point in time. We have three older leader, and when I say older I don't mean in age we are all under 37. And we have two newer leaders. The three of us who have been here the longest want out. Were just tired... Burned out... and feel like if we don't get out the boys are going to start to suffer. We want new blood to come in and take over and keep things going. Especially me because I have found a great new home in the Boy Scout Troop and hopefully will be there for a long long time in some position, and the pack feeds the troop with new scouts so if the pack goes, then one day the troop will suffer too. We have tried recruiting new parents, but we just don't have a pool to draw from. And that's not because we don't feel that they wouldn't do a good job, its just they aren't there! They either work hours that keep them from giving up any time, or they just don't care and scouts is just a baby sitter for an hour each week while they go off to Walmart or somewhere else. Belive me we have dug all through the barrel and asked almost every parent in our pack. We just haven't had any luck. And its not like we just started going through this process, we really have been doing it for almost a year!

Some of the advice everyone has given we already tried. I went to our COR and the SM of the Troop 5 months ago and explained it all to them and asked for their help. The COR said he would go back to the CO and talk to them. He did, but like I have said in this thread and Others, they don't care! They were like oh well were sorry to hear that, but does that mean the two classrooms upstairs will be freed up now for us to use??

Then we got a new DE about three months ago and he along with the district commish came to a meeting one night to introduce himself. We asked him to stay till the end of the meeting and then we explained our situation to him. He said well sounds like you need some help... I will see what I can do... I will get back with you... That was three months ago. Haven't seen or heard from him again since except when he sent our recharter pack over last month, and he didn't say anything to us then except if there was anything missing from the packet to let him know and off he drove.

So my question was not really how to save the pack. Folks we have tried... Maybe not as much as some of you would have, and maybe not with all the ideas yall have given, but Cub Scouts is not our whole life and we don't have anymore to give without sacraficing something else in our lives, and we are not willing to do that. After all, neither of us three have a kid in Cub Scouts anymore, and haven't for almost 5 years! The only reason we have stayed this long is because we didn't want to let the boys down. We felt like by us leaving and no one else there to take over that the boys would leave scouting period rather than try to find another pack to go too.

So the question was not, how can I save the pack, the question was how can we fold the pack with out loosing the scouts we have right now from scouting all together?

We get no response from our CO, we get no response from our DE, we get no response from our DC... So it might be short of some of you that read these posts expectations of what we should do, but we have done all we feel we could have done or want to do. We are deeply upset. We don't in anyway want to see the pack die, but we can't continue to be the only ones that keep it going because as you have said yourselves you get to the point that your not having fun anymore and it begins to show and then you start loosing scouts because they aren't having fun anymore. Before it gets to that point we want out.

We know our CO won't step up and do anything when we leave, and thus the pack will have to fold. So our original intent in this post was to find out ways in which we could try and keep the scouts we have now in scouting, even though their pack was folding.

We met last night and made a decision and later I will tell you what happend but right now you and I need a break! LOL

Our COR attends every troop meeting and also takes care of the finances for the Pack and the Troop, but most of that is because his son is in the Troop and he was the one that helped to start the pack and troop back up so many years ago. He too is frustrated at the lack of support we get from the CO and he has been many times to the deacons and tried to ralley them behind things we were doing. Give you an example of something. Until last year the church did a pork shoulder sale. They sold between 175 and 225 shoulders. We (Troop) helped them out with the fund raiser as a service to our CO. Well last year they decided not to do it because they were way too involved in some other project and they just didnt want to take the time to do it. So we (troop) took up the fund raiser for ourselves. We decided to only try and sell between 175 and 200. You know we went to the mens group in the church, the ones that sold the majority of the tickets for their fundraiser the year before. They wouldnt help us. We went to the women's group, they didnt help us. We tried selling tickets in the church to members. I bet we didnt get 10% of them to buy one. Same basic deal when we do popcorn sales. We sell very few to people in our CO. But now let one of their kids in the church be selling something for school or cheerleading and they bend over backwards to get everyone to buy something.

Well I went home last night and did some soul searching and then some research (phone calls) to see exactly how the pack and troop was organized at our CO in the first place. Seems they never really made a decision that they wanted scouts as a part of thier church. In a sense that someone in the CO said "hey lets make scouts a part of our youth ministries". Yes they did make the decision to let someone use the basement to hold scout meetings. A pack and troop at another church folded some 10 years previous. One of the church members and some of his friends (non church members) needed a place to start the pack and troop up and the CR we have now said well hey we have a basement in our church that isnt being used ill see if we can meet there. He went to the decons and they said sure as long as it doesnt cost us anything or doesnt effect how or when we need to use the basement. And thats pretty much how we came into being some 15 or 16 years ago. The CO has never really given us much support. Now as far as do we support the CO? Definately Yes! Once a year we host a camp out complete with games and meals for all the youth in the church. Once a year we not only participate in scout sunday with the church, WE as a troop and pack RUN the service for the day. Once a month we do a cleanup of the church grounds. Twice a year we do a "spring cleaning" of the whole grounds. When the church wants something cleaned inside or has manual labor projects they always call upon us to do it. We have numerous Eagle projects that have benifited the church or made improvements to the church grounds. Twice a year the church does food sales and we as a troop and pack always assist with either serving or traffic control or have even done ticket/plate sales for them. I even started last year doing a buliten board in the vestibule of the church and posting pictures and stuff from our latest service project/ outings so the church as a whole could see what we were doing. People from our CO are always invited to attend special events and ceremonies we have and we have offered open invitation for them to come to regular meetings and see what goes on. All for nothing. I think in the last 9 year I have been doing Arrow of Light ceremonies for the pack, the pastor of the church came once. He has never been to a Blue and Gold or a pack meeting. None of the other people from the CO have ever come. We have never had anyone from the CO come to a troop COH or Eagle Ceremony. I say no one but its not compleatly true because me, my wife and our CR are all members of this church but I don't really include us because we are there for the pack/troop not representing the CO. So it's not for a lack of us supporting our CO that we get no support from them. Honestly I think they just have way too much on their plate to deal with us. Over the last three years they have been way too busy trying to put together a youth ministries program (even though I think they could have accomplished the same goal by throwing their support into us.) Before that it was some other major project in the church. Now its a major building renovation and new construction project. All these things just drain them of time, money and energy and I think they just don't want or don't have the time to deal with us.

Thanks Ozemu I think that was the answer I was looking for.

There might not be anything in national policy that says a 10 yr old cant do the same things that a 17 yr old does, but All the camps in our state that we have been too for summer camp sure do say you have to be 14 or over to participate in high adventure programs. Thats also been the reason that DE's have told me that scouts cant be in Venture crews till after 14, which I see other reasons for that not the physical aspects but the mental aspects of putting scouts under 14 participating with high school and beyond age kids all together.

Ed, I have heard of other packs in our area that have the same situation where the CO charges for a room to meet in or a place to hold the Blue and Gold. Our CO isn't quite that bad although we don't even try to hold our Blue and Gold at their fellowship hall. We just go to the town community building. Most of the CO's in our area (BOB I said Our area not the nation as a whole so don't throw out some statistics to me) but they are just the CO's for Packs and Troops because it makes them look more appealing to the community not because they are trying to deliver a program. It's not the CO's delivering the program anyway its the Volunteers. If I didn't go to the church where we are chartered, I wouldn't see anyone there at all throughout the year. I doubt the CO can even name the leaders in our pack with the exception of me, my wife and the CR because they we are the only ones they ever see and thats only because we are members of that church. And ironically it wasn't our church that drew us into scouts, it was scouts that drew us in to our church. We had been going to scouts at this church for so long we finally decided one day hey I wonder what the service is like and we knew some of the people that went there so we took in a regular service (not just scout sunday) and liked it and finally ended up moving from another church and joining here. So it looks like the Church would take that example and use it and scouting to its advantage and pump some life into it.

But I guess we have kind of drifted away from reality here because the reality is, the leaders the pack has now are burned out. They want to go and we know when we leave the CO will not keep it going. So which is best if you know its going to fold, a slow transition out, or walk out the door and don't look back?

When I refer to alot of packs troops etc. I can only relate to what is in my area, not on a national level. Scouting is a big thing in some parts of the country and not as strong in others. It's not as strong in our area.

We put on a great program I think. Infact we have been a model pack for other packs in the area as far as what we do for advancement for the boys. They all have a great time and of the ones that stay they do look foward to whats next.

But yes Shell, alot of it here has to do with what the parents want the boys to do. Sports is a big thing in our community, always has been even when I was growing up. Every parent in the community pushes their kids into sports regardless of whether the kid wants too or not just for the fact that they think they might be the next Jordan or McGuire or maybe they are living out their child hood fantasies through their kids. I just had one boy a next door neighbor in fact that just dropped out of the troop because of the parents. The kid was dying to get into scouts. The parents wouldn't let him in said it was because he didn't have the time and they didnt have the money... although both the parents go to the gym three or four nights a week and they had enough for two of the kids to take guitar lessons twice a week. So anyway after begging and begging they finally let him join. Heck I even paied his registration after he had been too three meetings and one campout and the parents still hadn't done it. The he comes in saturday morning and tells my son he cant come back to scouts. I stepped in and asked why, he said cause his parents thought it was more important for him to go to the gjm and work out with them so that he could start playing baseball and football next season. He really wanted to go back but his parents didnt think it was what was best for him. Thats just one example of why most boys that leave for sports goes. And we have tried moving the meeting nights. We even went to the park department in town and tried to work something out with them but it doesnt matter. 85% of the kids in town play some sport at the park. We have 15 baseball teams during that season. 10 basket ball teams during that season, 5 football teams and now soccer is starting to take a hold, they had 6 teams of that playing last year, and all of this is just in the cub scout ages 1st thru 7th graders.

So it's not how fun or exciting we make the program because we do thing that other packs in the area don't do, we even have some scouts in our pack that have come from other packs just because they have alot more fun with us.

I agree with you Shell on the reconstruction part. Thats what happened three years ago when our last CM left. We couldn't get anyone to come in because she had her own way of doing things and no one liked it and so basically she was pushed out by parents who wanted to complain before we even were able to find a replacement. That's why my wife became CM because we looked and looked right up till time for recharter and no one came foward wanting to do it, so she took it because we had to have one, plus some other parents said they would support her by assisting, but they left not long after they started because they didn't like some of the rules and didn't want to get trained and felt like it was taking up too much of their time. Just one excuse after another.