Terry Bliss

I don't think I can attach the flier with the 2011 National Camping School dates and locations, but here is the web address in response to those that want to know: www.ncsbsa.org/calendar.

Regarding the comment from Shortridge that it is difficult for a lone Scouter (vs a Council employee) to go, that has not been my experience, and I certainly qualify as a lone Scouter. I added at the last minute both times I went. Strictly speaking, the only must-have interaction you need from the Council is a Council executive's signature on the application form.

Barring cost issues, a Council would be crazy to not want lone Scouters to go, as they are a great resource. Many Councils have a large cadre of NCS trained people. Again using my current Council as an example, DMV Council has 2 currently qualified NCS trained Climbing Directors, in addition to the summer staff people. Atlanta Area Council, where I came from, had more like 10 COPE and Climbing Directors outside of summer staff. I know that shooting sports also tend to have lots of "lone Scouter" type attendees at NCS.

However, it is not surprising that most of the attendees are there in preparation for a summer camp job. Summer camps typically have a high annual staff turnover rate, and it is absolutely necessary to have a NCS-trained Director in many areas. You also see some church and other non-BSA camp people there, because it is widely known that BSA's training programs are great and widely available, compared to privately run training.

By comparison, the Ranger and Program Director NCS programs have virtually all Council and summer staff employees, as would be expected.

I have never heard of anyone being bumped from NCS to make room for summer camp staff by NCS. Quite the opposite, I saw last minute hires added several days after the program started. This is not to say it does not happen, but I think it is not common. Just a suggestion, if you go to a fall session, this would be very unlikely to be an issue.

As to why more lone Scouters don't go, I believe it is because they are not asked to go, and because in general they don't know about it, how to get info, etc. There is no particular reason why any Troop level volunteer would know that NCS even exists- it tends to operate below the radar screen. The sort of person that would take the initiative to learn that there is a NCS, why and how to go, when and where to go, and then commit an extra week of their vacation time to go, are indeed the hard core volunteers.

As a BSA Project COPE Driector, a BSA Climbing and Rappelling Director, as chairman of the local Council Climbing and Rappelling Committee, I need to log on and correct a few misconceptions.

First, I strongly suggest you read the rules regarding high adventure, starting with the Guide to Safe Scouting, Climb On Safely, Safe Swim/Safety Afloat, Caving (joint with the NSS) and so on- there are many others for other specific activities. The 2 minute summary is, there is nothing stopping you from using a private guide service, as long as they are properly qualified, insured, etc. The general guideline is, if you go off BSA property and use non-BSA qualified instructors and equipment, the liability rests with the eauipment and service provider, not with BSA. Lots of BSA groups do this regularly, especially for activities such as white water rafting, which are simply not available on Scout property.

If you read the above referenced docs you will realize that Climbing and COPE for example, require much more than a single staffer, as you suggest. A National Camp School trained Director plus a second qualified Instructor is the minimum requirement for Project COPE, and a third staffer is required for each additional 6 participants. Same is true for Climbing, except a Lead Instructor can run a tower. Thus, for your Troop of 20 Scouts, a minimum of 4 currently trained staff are required, and more would be preferred, especially for a trip to the local rocks (I would know, this is something I do regularly). This is not a small matter. Many camps (ours included) only have 3 or 4 climbing staff in the summer, so the chances of finding 4 currently qualified staff from the summer crew who are available on a given spring or fall weekend is nil. In my current Council (DelMarVa) and a past Council where I volunteered (Atlanta) we have a crew of 35 and 75 trained volunteers we can call on for spring and fall weekends, respectively.

Not all Councils have this (large volunteer weekend staff) resource. It sounds like yours does not. While that is not unusual, it is not appropriate to critize the Council or the individuals for their lack of availability at your convenince. The solution is for you or other adults from your large Troop to acquire the requisite training and volunteer to help staff such events for your Troop and for others. Week long National Camp School sessions are offered about 15-20 times per year in all regions of the country, for about $500 plus transportation expenses. I have been there twice myself, and look forward to my next session.

Many local Councils also offer entry level (Instructor) courses on weekends, usually for less than $100. Your profile does not list your location, but if you are near Delaware, I will be happy to send you our dates. We offer the Instructor level training every April and September for weekend volunteers, and work with Lead Instructor candidates on a one on one basis as needed.

While it is true that some BSA Camp Rangers can't come up with appropriate staff contacts off the top of their heads, they are right to refer you to the Council office staff, where this responsibility usually lies. That's how it works in my Council and all I know of. This system does work if the Council has a cadre of volunteers. In 2010 I worked 21 weekend climbing events (14 through BSA) and 24 in 2009.

Not everyone has the time, physical abilities, skills, interest, and willingness to assume responsibility in a dangerous environment for groups of Scouts they don't even know. Although the Council does charge a nominal fee for weekend use (far less than a private contractor) in order to maintain the equipment, I have never accepted so much as gas money for this, in fact I willingly pay several thousand dollars a year in cash and equipment donations and out of pocket expenses to do so. I know I can say the same for others who volunteer for COPE, Climbing, and many other high adventure activities for BSA. People do this because they love to create opportunities for youth that would not happen without their efforts. As you have seen, in some Councils, primarily due to a lack of willing and able volunteers, it simply does not happen.

So, Twocubdad, please put these comments in perspective and consider the possibility of seeking training for some volunteers from your Troop to cover program areas of interest in your Council. Many Troops do not have anywhere near enough active parents, but if yours does, this is a great way to find a niche volunteer opportunity that will allow you to make things happen that clearly will not happen otherwise.

I went last year, and essentially they tell you that you can't use a single tent unless it is necessitated due to an odd number of people, an odd number of adults, or to prevent males and females from co-habitating. The reason is to keep the impact on the facilities low. They specifically prohibit bivy sacks, in writing, in the printed material they send out.

If you really feel the need to sleep solo, weigh your pack with the initial 3-4 days worth of food and your share of crew gear. You will likely change your mind. It is very difficult to keep the weight under 45 lbs with a solo tent in side. Less is way better.

Our crew had adults and Scouts from 4 units in 2 states, some of which met for the first time in the registration line at Philmont. Only 1 tent wound up with people from different units who did not previously know each other (2 adults). It worked out just fine.

My son and did the Out Island Adventure in 2003. Here are my suggestions:

1) Take a non-BSA t-shirt for the day trip to Key West, as required in the info from BSA Seabase. Unfortunately Scouts sometimes suffer harrassment in Key West.

2) Make sure every one is up to speed on swimming. We did not do swim tests until a few weeks before leaving ans we were surprised to learn that several Scouts that had already earned Swimming Merit Badge could not pass the test. I had to set up several sessions at my local swim club to work with these individuals to get them up to speed.

3) Flip-flops are considered OK at Seabase. A piece of duct tape between your sore big toe and its neighbor is called a Munson Island sock.

4) It is beastly hot and humid on Munson Island. People wind up crashing on the picnic tables, in hammocks, anywhere they can catch a breeze. A net mesh hammock is a great thing to have. I took one, but I never got to sleep in it. There was always a Scout asleep in it, day and night.

5) Fair warning, hydrate and apply sun screen constantly.

6) Get comfortable with the concept of walking through shark infested shallows at the beach. Adults, walk with a Scout, they prefer tender meat (just kidding). The sharks are all bonnet heads which are non-aggressive, and are mostly small. The new Atlanta Aquarium has bonnet heads that size in the touch tanks for kids to feel.

7) You will be paddeling double kayaks (two in a kayak) or 10-man outrigger canoes to and from the island. Some people have trouble with paddling or steering the kayaks. Suggest you put an experienced paddler in the rear (steering position) of each kayak, very important. If you get two inexperienced paddlers in a kayak, it will take all day for the group to get to the island while that boat pinwheels around the ocean.

8) Waterproof cameras are good, but you will take next to nothing to the island- it all has to fit into a small sry bag. You can lock up excess stuff you brought at the base. You spend 2 nights in the drom before leaving for the island and one inthe dorm upon return. I tok a mesh bag for my snorkling gear so it would not tak up all the room in my dry bag. I took a zippered fleece blanket rather than a sleeping bag, that is fine for the dorm and the island.

9) They have excellent quality snorkle gear available. If you are more comfortable with gear you already own, take it. If money is short, don't buy cheap gear to take along, use their gear.

10) The barracudas in the swim test area will not hurt you, they just look scary.

Have fun.

Atlanta Area Council COPE and Climbing Team usually uses Rocktown (in Pigeon Mountain Wildlife Management Area, near La Fayett, GA SW of Chattenooga) for Council climbing events. It is excellent. No gear or instruction is available that I am aware of, but we have our own gear and instructors anyway.

I have heard that gear and instruction is available through the Natahala Outdoor Pursuit Center, whichis much closer to SC anyway.

We also heard about the burro issues but took a trek that required them. We took Trek 9 this summerand had a very god experience withthe burros. We were early in the season (got the burros on about 18 June) so perhaps they wre not thoroughly ruined for the season. We aslso had all older Venturers (ages 15-20) so perhaps they were more disciplined in handling them. We made friends with them early on, fed them dried apples and dry oatmeal and trail mix to encourage them, and generally had no trouble. We were even able to turn them around on a narrow trail, when it was washed out and impassable.

Our first night, we had them in a burro pen with 4 other burros at a trail camp. When anyone from our group walked past, our burros would immediately walk over to us, while the others ignored us. I think making friends with them and treating them firmly but well early on is of value.

The only thing we could not get them to do was cross a large wood bridge at Pueblano. This was not to amazing, since the cross planks had gaps about an inch or two apart. It resembled a cattle guard gate. We had to lead them through the creek, and they were less than eager to do that, but we were hungry and so we dragged them through.

Overall we considered it a good experience, something none of us will likely ever do again, so do it and enjoy the unique experience.

I suspect that in units that report trouble, younger scouts may be undisciplined in their handling- feeding them at random, which encourages them to stop and demand treats.