dwalto02

ALL,

I've posted enough here, and said everything in my head, and listened to it all, and taken to heart what I've heard.

Thanks for sharing with me.

Signing off now. It was worth the time, but I see this can go on forever, so I need to be done posting/reading.

Thanks

JM Hawkins,

I honestly beleive you are misguided in what boy-led is. Boy led is a quiet, respectful hands-off guidance to the top leader(s) in the Troop based on a personal, positive relationship with them. This can take a long time to develop, and requires quite an investment. Once this happens, when the boys decide things, they tend to ask advice, seek wisdom, out of respect. It is NOT guiding the boys, it's being a resource for the boys, and an example of some good character/decision making qualities/wisdom to have. It's not that simple.

We have a fully committed troop. Boys and Leaders. As a matter of fact, they are asked to commit to every event, every meeting unless there's a real, valid reason, and they need to present it. We, as a group adults and boys alike are accountable to each other in this way. There's no problem with leadership coverage at all.

We have 1 campout outing per month, all unique, all fun, all boy designed. We have 3 meetings a month, short and to the point they prepare and plan their outings. Everything happens on outings. Service projects and fundraisers come up as they present themselves. Very active, but not like some troops. As a matter of fact, we limit the number of boys in the troop to keep it boy-runnable!

Good for you and your ASMS... good for us and our ASMS.

If having a femail ASM doesn't undermine, more power to ya. But don't be on both sides of the fence. You'd have to say the same as the SM being female too, after all, just like a VP, when the SM isn't there, the ASM is the SM. Same thing.

Good point on the 12 boys with no troop, but I'm trusting the vision I believe God gave me, he'll work that out.

Did I say "he"? Oh my

ScoutNut:

Thinking there is no art to becoming a real man or a real woman and that it's just "getting older", is a shallow view, and frankly misguided. Ask people around you who you respect what they think. You'll learn about this from them.

Everyone agrees, there's plenty of aspects men and women leaders alike can imparte plenty of good things to the boys. However, there's a huge lack in society today of people that understand and embrace differences, respect those differences, and thrive in them. The lack in society I speak of is expressed in your post

I respect your vision and I say more power to you! I really mean that too!

Quazse,

Well, if you can't recognize there is a baseline difference between the personalities of men and women, then you are either not being honest with yourself, or you live in a different universe than I do.

There is something to be said for someone knowing what is right, sticking by it, and working with others who share that vision. A house divided against itself will fall.

Jblake47 - Stosh -

Thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom in the matter. You were honest, and to the point, and cut out the bologna.

On the last number of campouts, there have been some treasured moments where a boy will come up to me and talk about his relationship with his father. I've heard "my dad doesn't like me"... a long conversation follows, with ideas on how to engage his father more. I've had other boys talk to me about some fighting issues at school, wanting to know how to deal with it. This kind of discussion wouldn't be as likely to happen in a mixed environment.

Not to say a mixed environment is wrong by any means, but there is something to be said for group dynamics of the same sex.

Tampa Turtle,

Well said, tactfully said, and I agree.

Quazse,

1. I don't believe there's any prejudgement of sex differences. I'm not saying there are things males can do that females can't in life. I'm saying there is a baselilne general personality difference between a man and a woman. Unlike our physical bodies, you may not be able to see it, but it's just as real. If you don't agree with that, well we shouldn't even be talking because I couldn't possibly explain something like that to someone who doesn't see it.

2. There's no good-old-boys network. We have women doing very active roles in the Troop, just not ASMs and on boy-only campouts in order to promote the all-male environment that is so lacking in today's society (as well as all-female by the way).

3. This is good and helpful advice and very much appreciated (thank you).

Moose Tracker,

Your "newbie" and "stomped on" and judging "not Archie Bunker" comments are childish and silly. You ought to take a look at that. Seriously.

I totally agree with finding different troops. Different troops for different people.

Good point that if it's truly boy-run a few female leaders in the mix shouldn't matter. But if I were to plop myself as a man down at 10pm around a campfire of young girl scouts talking about what they want... I would ruin the dynamic and the moment. This is how they learn to be young ladies, from each other, from their female leaders. I wouldn't want to ruin that. The opposite applies, mere presence removes that dynamic.

Not LDS. The COR isn't pushing it, they just want policies to open it up.

ScoutNut,

You are right, the policies don't state that specifically. But why isn't Scouts co-ed? Hmmm.

I never said ladies can't teach theses qualities, or shouldn't. I said the better choice for teaching men in the ways of becoming a man is to have a man do it. I believe any honest person would agree.

Might not like it, might not be politically correct, but it's true.

5YearScouter,

Female role models are extremely important. I believe more so than male models. However the vision we have for our troop to focus on male mentorship. I wouldn't think there to be anything wrong if a girl scout troop wanted to focus on female mentorship, whereas another wanted to have men mentoring them as well.

I agree with everything you said that boys learning to think outside the stereotype box is a great thing. As a matter of fact, if you have a Troop that focuses on that, and it's your vision, and you wanted to have a Troop with all female adult leaders, well more power to ya!

The scout vision and purpose does not say it should only be men, and neither do I. Check what I've said, I just said that for me, it's a better choice and I'm arguing that.

For us, since we're focusing on male mentorship, having a female on an all-boy campout throws off the dynamic and does "ruin" what we're trying to do with that dynamic. Listen, if I was to jump in the middle of a group of girl scouts on an overnighter, hanging around the campfire.... do you think the conversations would be so open with me sitting there in the middle of them? Of course not, I'd mess up their whole dynamic because I don't relate, or understand.... If having that special girl-only gathering moment was important to the particular Girl Scout troop you are leader of... you may not want to have me in the mix, and I'm okay with that. Could I do what the girls do, am I qualified? Sure! But is it the best? Maybe not.

I never said a woman can't be a good scout leader, again I just said for us, it's better for our focus, and I believe usually the better choice to have it be a man for now-a-days.

About so many adults, I see what you're saying, but in my case, we have leaders fully dedicated, and don't need more cooks in the kitchen.

About being hyper-focused... I get what you're saying, but that's just because this is the forum discussion, and because it has been raised as an issue with the CO. We have actually MUCH more important focuses in the Troop, such as Duty to God. This is another aspect of Scouting that has been watered down and pushed to the side in order to promote political correctness. But that's another forum.

The COR actually doesn't want a female ASM, they just want to be politically correct and are worried about that is all.

I don't think you've been inflammatory in the post, and I didn't think it was unscout like. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, that wasn't my intention.

If I posted that there is no way you could ever raise a young man, I didn't mean that. I was trying to say, only a woman can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young lady and likewise only a man can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young man. It takes more then a dad to do that. If you are a mother raising a son w/o a husband, other men will help raise your son, his male friends as well. Same goes with young ladies, a man raising a young lady alone, needs women and other girls to help with that.

The mothers in our troop all know how we feel because it's in the orientation and signed by them and we talk about it. They are always very appreciative of this focus we have with the boys and male mentorship.

JM Hawkins --

Sorry you lost your big response, but you made up for it

My philosophy and your philosophy of boy-run is completely opposite. I wouldn't "get" my troop to do anything. They decide. They plan high-adventure outdoor for every event, and it's more active and outdoors and adventurous and create then any troop I've seen in the past (my whole life in scouting). That's because I don't direct anything, the boys decide it all. They are very content where they're at. I've seen troops where the adults drive them to be over active,and guess what, you're exactly right, more adults are needed. If you are open mined, read this. It's one of the best things I've read on boy-run and it's right on, and exactly in line with where we're at: http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/DocDownload.aspx?id=110318

Now, that's not to say a less boy run troop is no good, or isn't awesome, it's just not what my troop is doing. Mine is developing strong leaders, independent young men. Not a boys club, with adults running half of it that's a lot of fun.

Patrols aren't assigned to go off in different areas. Patrols run the Troop, the way LBP set it up. Patrol go on their own campouts and have their own events independent of the troop, but when they play a Troop outing, their going on it as a Troop, working from the patrol.

As far as spelling me... from what? A Scoutmaster should never be busy. If he is, he's not running the program right.

Regarding your suggestions: You're missing the whole point. Just like your troop is less boy run and that's okay because you're focusing on a different thing, like being "more active". Well, that's okay because that's the vision you have. It's not the vision I have. Your vision is to give the boys a broader sense of character development to include female influences as you would experience generally in life. My vision (and my leaders) is to focus on the issue that with many boys in America today, there is a lack of a father's influence, which is vital (as you would say) to the development of a boy.

Let's try to not put each other in our boxes. Your advice is based on your vision. My point isn't that all Troops should not have female ASMs, it's that mine should be able to and that's a fine choice.

Thanks for the comments,

The boys run everything they can, and they have PLC's every 2 weeks and they plan as much as they can and do no more. May I suggest the following reading: http://scoutmaster.org/Boy%20Led%20Troop.pdf

If you've read my posts, you'll see why I believe for our Troop, male mentoring is preferred.

Agreed about mentoring by association with groups. We have plenty of non program leaders, and parents, men & women for that.

Read previous posts for number of ASMS.

You're right, the CO has the say, which is why the Troop end, but we'll see.

NJCubscouter,

12 - A bunch of boys who have no father in their life

6 - The number of involved fathers

4 - The number of fathers interested in being leaders

5YearScouter,

There is an art to becoming a man, which you will never be able to fully grasp, just as there is an art to becoming a woman, which I will never be able to fully grasp. Has nothing to do with "scratching butts" or "farting" as you say. Not at all. If you don't understand this, I could never in a million years explain it to you.

Good for you the way you are involved in your Troop, and the way you have the boys do things themselves, that's great for you and your Troop, but not what I'm doing in our Troop.

Moose,

I've been in multiple Troops with disgruntled boys due to females on campouts. Especially the boys mothers.

NJCubscouter,

Thanks for getting me up to speed.

Good question on the ASM positions. There is no limit on ASMs, but in a truly boy run troop, there is a point when you have too much adult supervision by ASMs. So long as it's possible, the SM, and possibly an ASM or two, depending on the size of the troop is enough to carry out the SM conferences, and hands-off guidance needed. Too many ASMs with nothing to do, they'll start interfering, and then, the boys have adults taking over.

I disagree the more the merrier, I'm a long time scouter and SM and I've found it to be true. We have 30 boys, 3 ASMs.

I also disagree with it being a preferred idea to have female ASMS and/or SMs as well. For my Troop, we have a focus on boys learning to be young men. Who better to teach that then a good man? At school, at home (mom), and at work as they get older, there are plenty of female influences. Why are all of the Youth members boys? Because there is a certain dynamic that can be found only in a group of boys, not co-ed. Same with the adult leadership being involved. To keep the male group dynamic, male leaders are best.

The "dismantled" troop is something I can't discuss right now.

Moosetracker,

Seemingly, this thread is not dead. As a newbie, I responded to the original post because it was on top, but, rest-assured, I'm now well informed and frankly I feel much smarter thanks to you!

Frankly, your view on what it is to be a young lady is in the dark ages. Sewing dollies? Really. I am a VERY FIRM believer that Girl Scouts for instance has fallen into this trap, and it's been my experience in recruiting for cubs and boy scouts that the girls are DYING to do the same things as boys. Shooting, camping, fishing, etc. I support that and encourage that and fight for it.

However, what has completely escaped you is the fine art of growing into a young lady or young man. You may not see it, but the reality is men and women are different creatures. We live in a society that is trying to ignore that reality and make us all the same, but you see, we were created to be different. Not unequal, but different, with our differences making us fit together like a glove. Just like the physical differences make us so compatible, so do our personality differences.

It's sad really.

Seattle Pioneer,

Thank you for your post. To answer your question as to why not add another ASM.. There is no need. Our Troop is extremely boy run, and there is no need for additonal ASMS, it would be counter productive. I have a line of other men who would love to have an ASM job as well, but it's not needed. Again, I say if I have a good man, that would be the better choice.

There is value in females being around, definitely for many reasons, but I have a bunch of boys who have no father in their life, dying to have a man around to teach them how to become a young man, by example. Including interacting with women, which there are women on the committee we interact with all of the time.

Shooting, doing something rugged, whatever, these aren't the qualities that I'm talking about a man mentoring a boy into a young man being preferred. It's how to be a good father, how to clash with other men gracefully and resolve differences as only men do, how to be a good husband, how to be a good brother, how to work hard and sweat, how to be a gentleman.

If I didn't have a line of good men, who have a heart for mentoring young men with no fathers, sure I'd love to have an ASM woman, but I have 'em.

Bilgerat,

I wholeheartedly agree. Truth be said, I think most women would also prefer to see men in the role mentoring boys.

The question isn't if a women is capable of doing a good job with it. The question is, if there are willing and able men, who set high standards in their personal lives and have the time and the will... isn't having them mentoring the boys the better choice?

Sure, I, as a male, might be able to lead a group of young girls and do the best I can to be a good role model on how to become a young lady (I guess)... but is that the best choice I ask... if there were willing/able females to do that job. How can I understand the fine art of becoming a young lady if I've never done it? How can I teach that?

Likewise, how can a women be the best choice for teaching young men the fine art of becoming a man?

Unfortunately, our charter organization (Church), is fighting us on this because of a woman who wants to be in an ASM position (although the ASM positions are full). We have an absolutely wonderful troop, with engaged, happy boys and plenty of good men to lead them... and now it's looking like it might have to be dismantled because of this.