Advancement - what is "active"?

[Scoutmaster Ron 12]

jokehh..

I'd love to have that name you spoke to at Natl because the troop I was formerly with had an attendance record of 50% meetings and outings when I discussed this with our district rep he told me that troops do have the right to set such requirements and that his response came from Natl. Wouldn't be great to get a "written" response from Natl!!!

[anarchist 10]

ScoutMaster Ron,

 

National? Answer in writing? What have YOU been smoking?...and if it does respond chances area second responder from National would give you a different 'interpretation"..

good luck!

 

Active ain't just paying dues!

[Scoutmaster Ron 12]

Sure why not? Wouldn't it clear up so much? I agree active is more than just paying dues but it also NOT having an attendance requirement

[Hunt 11]

If you read back over this thread, you'll see some good suggestions on how to handle the question of what is "active." OGE's post, for example, is very good. What you won't find, however, is a clear statement of what BSA thinks it means--even from the person who suggested that he knew the right answer and that it can be gleaned from BSA documents.

My suspicion is that BSA doesn't want to state this clearly, because the truth is that BSA will allow units to use whatever definition of active they like until somebody appeals a decision, and then BSA will decide in favor of the person appealing, as long as the person was registered and paying dues. Obviously, BSA doesn't want to come out and say this (especially not in writing), because they really do want scouts to be active.

[anarchist 10]

so?

what we have?

is a policy of letting units fend for themselves,

 

and then when (in fairness to the boys following 'the unit rules') a unit tries to hold a scout to 'those rules', National pulls the rug out from under them?!? great system...

perhap the sports coaches do have it right...show up 100%... or you are off the team!

 

better idea?.. give the boy his money back and tell him to find a new troop?...both leave a bad taste don't they.

[evmori 11]

Being active is more than being registered and less than being there 100% of the time. Boys who are in sports or other school activities are going to be there less than those not involved in these activities. I really see nothing wrong with having Troop guidelines in place to help define active. This puts everyone one the same playing field.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[anarchist 10]

Ed,

 

I totally agree with having guidelines...but it appears that they are not acceptable to the lawyers in Texas...(sorry Texans)...

 

Our troop holds meetings on Monday night to avoid as much as possible conflicts with School and club sports/activities. It seems to work (mostly). We even encourage boys in sports to come as they are after practice, rather than having to go home to change (and some show up in team 'colors')...All, to allow these guys to be 'well rounded' and able to participate in many different activities...and I think our program is better for it!

 

Heck, our guidelines only ask for participation in 50% of meetings and Activities (with a Scout Master wiggle room clause for other contingencies) and still we are not PC it seems.

I am sitting on a Eagle Board tonight and it is a typical 'boy is a great scout for a few years...screwed up his PoR, disappeared for a year (girls, cars, job) and came back (after he recked said car)to 'get his Eagle' story.

Sort of a shame that Nationals can say we 'belong to the CO' when it is convenient for them, but then can hammer us if we try to define 'Active'.

 

I am not a 100%er or even a 75%er, but it does seem resonable to ask a boy to show up to 20-22 meetings (ends up being two a month) and attend 7 or 8 weekend activities in a years time...

National is ducking and weaving again..."go on, take the money and run!' to quote the song.

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Ed, you said

 

"I really see nothing wrong with having Troop guidelines in place to help define active. This puts everyone one the same playing field."

 

I also want everyone on the same playing field, and if in a single District there is a troop that requires 50% meeting and 50& activity attendance, and another has 80% meeting and 75% activity and another that has 50% and 25% and another that has none, how is the playing field level for anyone?

 

[Hunt 11]

OGE, I think the frustration some people are feeling here is that a more subjective approach doesn't create a level playing field either, because it has the potential of subjecting the scouts to the whims of leaders who think the scouts "just haven't been active enough." We've had threads on this very situation. With a numerical target, at least a scout can have some certainty. I still agree with you that a more subjective approach is better if the leaders are well-trained, reasonable, and sensitive the boys' scheduling issues--but if they aren't, I can see why some parents might like a more specific guideline.

[FScouter 24]

Numerical targets make it too easy on the boy.

 

How about "Son, you need to attend meetings and activities, and be an active member of the troop. If you don't participate, you need to be able to explain whether or not you have been active."

 

Give him something to think about. The unit leader doesn't need to decide for the boy. Just as the boy knows whether he lives the Scout oath and law in his daily life, he knows in his heart whether or not he has been active.

 

Make him be responsible for defining and being "active" and help him to become a responsible adult.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Hunt, I don't want to get into a quote and pick war, mostly because I am pretty sure you and I agree on this, but, you posted

 

"... I still agree with you that a more subjective approach is better if the leaders are well-trained, reasonable, and sensitive the boys' scheduling issues--but if they aren't, I can see why some parents might like a more specific guideline..."

 

so, is it valid to say that if leaders are ill-trained, or not trained at all and unreasonable and have no sensitivity to the boys schedule then having attedance requirements are ok?

 

I dont think the parents need guidelines, I think the boy needs a new troop, with well-trained, reasonable and sensitive to a boys schedule leaders.

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

I'm reminded of an expression oft-repeated in my line of work: "Don't ask a question you can't stand the answer to...". In this case, if you ask a bureaucracy a policy question, the answer will tend to be the one that best avoids risk. I don't want Irving running my unit long-distance, and to their credit, I don't think they want that either. They're fun to bash, but by not strictly defining "active", they acknowledge that every unit is different, every boy is different, and it's best to let the unit leaders determine unit policy. I've related in other threads the example of a Scout in a prior Troop who was a very talented baseball player. He routinely made traveling and all-star teams, and I knew that during baseball season, I could stick his face on a milk carton, 'cuz his whereabouts were unknown. The day baseball was over, he was back and in it with both feet.

 

I don't use percentages for defining "active", I use my gut based on the situation, the Scout, and the other demands on his time. I don't wait until a Scout is in front of me asking for an SM conference to tell him he's "mailing it in" either. He's going to know as soon as I perceive it, because we're having a conference. Real-time feedback and communication prevents most misunderstandings.

 

Is that a seat-of-the-pants, subjective method that requires me to take each boy's personal situation, motivation, and abilities into account? Sure. But, as far as I'm concerned, that's what I got hired to do. If a committee handed me an Excel spreadsheet to fill in the boxes and apply a formula to determine "active", they don't want a Scoutmaster, they want an accountant.

 

KS

[Hunt 11]

"so, is it valid to say that if leaders are ill-trained, or not trained at all and unreasonable and have no sensitivity to the boys schedule then having attedance requirements are ok?"

 

No...I guess all I'm saying is that when vague standards lead to arbitrary results, people will naturally ask for more specific standards. I think the current statements on "active" from BSA are too vague--maybe they should tell us that it's NOT supposed to be a numerical cut-off. But we have a system in which we are required to be quite exacting on certain requirements (number of nights of camping, and what sort of shelter you have to sleep under, for example), and others in which we don't have much guidance. Again, I think we do agree on this, OGE--I wish BSA would take your suggested approach and publish it in advancement documentation. That would help.

[ps56k 10]

I've been wrestling with all of this for the past couple of years - and postings - about what is "active" and how scouts disappear and then re-appear years later for their Life rank BOR and even Eagle BOR. I've pretty much backed off the loosing fight within our Troop - one that I'll never win. However, as our own family will be facing the transition of a Scout into HS, it will be interesting to see things from the other side of the fence and having a 14-15yr old Life Scout with other activities.

It is interesting to note that our son was the SPL and is now the ASPL, trying to steer the troop into a boy-led direction. Taught backpacking stoves & trail cooking, firebuilding, etc. Not many other supporting parties - adult & scouts - too much of the old fun-club culture still remains, along with the Crew canabalizing the 14+ Scouts for their "trips". (read another thread)

Last year, three scouts attended Council JLTC - and our son was asked back for staff... He is interested in JLTC because it's with other Scouts that know and want to do Scouting stuff, and that now eats up a couple of campout weekends. Also, he is going to the Jamboree, and that eats up another weekend along with missing our Philmont trip & usual summer camp. So, he attends just about every meeting, also attends the PLC meetings, and runs the troop JLTC.... plus being a part of Council JLTC/NYLT and the Jamboree group - but, is he active on the troop campouts ??? not as much - because he is at other Scouting events, and gets tired of being the only older scout with skill knowledge & motivation.

Plus - he also has other outside activities - winter & summer swim teams, soccer, and track.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out next fall, and there after...

 

[ps56k 10]

I've been wrestling with all of this for the past couple of years - and postings - about what is "active" and how scouts disappear and then re-appear years later for their Life rank BOR and even Eagle BOR. I've pretty much backed off the loosing fight within our Troop - one that I'll never win. However, as our own family will be facing the transition of a Scout into HS, it will be interesting to see things from the other side of the fence and having a 14-15yr old Life Scout with other activities.

It is interesting to note that our son was the SPL and is now the ASPL, trying to steer the troop into a boy-led direction. Taught backpacking stoves & trail cooking, firebuilding, etc. Not many other supporting parties - adult & scouts - too much of the old fun-club culture still remains, along with the Crew canabalizing the 14+ Scouts for their "trips". (read another thread)

Last year, three scouts attended Council JLTC - and our son was asked back for staff... He is interested in JLTC because it's with other Scouts that know and want to do Scouting stuff, and that now eats up a couple of campout weekends. Also, he is going to the Jamboree, and that eats up another weekend along with missing our Philmont trip & usual summer camp. So, he attends just about every meeting, also attends the PLC meetings, and runs the troop JLTC.... plus being a part of Council JLTC/NYLT and the Jamboree group - but, is he active on the troop campouts ??? not as much - because he is at other Scouting events, and gets tired of being the only older scout with skill knowledge & motivation.

Plus - he also has other outside activities - winter & summer swim teams, soccer, and track.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out next fall, and there after...